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On June 30 2010 00:56 Sheth wrote:FeTmplar --(See what I did there?) Now onto your question, I've tried making a second hatchery in my main. I don't feel this is ... I feel a good word is precise. If you ever listened to Nony talking about SC1 he talks about his visit in korea and how the koreans will make just the right ammount of producing buildings (gateways, barracks) that you will always be using them. So there would be no reason to make a 5th gateway if you could use ALL your minerals making units out of 4 gateways. I feel like with that 2nd hatchery in your main without an expansion you will be wasting alot of larva. I just feel like thats a sin lol
Hmm.. I understand what you mean. I will try to elaborate on my point and try to prove its usefulness can counter this negative aspect (wasting larvas as you put it).me know what you think
Before we get further, I don't think any larva is "wasted" unless you cap your larva amount. If you're not using them all, they're simply stockpiling, which can be good or bad I'll give you that, but they're not "wasted" per say...
I also think this is more of a defensive play I'm suggesting. Sorta like Sen's way of playing (I think that's him...)
1- We take for granted that If we make our 2nd hatchery at our natural expo, we will sooner or later have to spend one of our queen's 25 energy to expand the creep between our 2 bases. Having your 2nd hatchery at your ramp bridges the gap faster between your main and your natural expo and prevents you from having to halt your "Inject Larva" shots.
2- By building your 2nd hatchery at your ramp, it is easier to defend... I think we can consider this a fact. If you choose to, you can build a spine crawler or two on high ground to defend against early harassment with minimal zergling amount at your ramp.
3- If point 2 proves successful and we require less zerglings to defend against early harass / attacks, it allows us to build more drones or whatever else you wanna build. :D Those extra drones can be sent to your 3rd hatch when needed to counter the lack of economy boost from building your 2nd hatch at your natural.
(By the way, FeTmplar is unknown to me... was/is he a famous SC1 player?)
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On June 29 2010 20:52 naniwa wrote: lol what a noobish playstyle :[ Is someone gonna ban this guy yet? I dont understand how he can flame so much and only get a temp ban. Naniwa, the fact is that your 1 base all in hasn't won anything in a long time, Sheth has, so i'd recommend you remain quiet.
"I would compare it with Mondragons 9 hatch 9 pool build" LOOOOL dude I was so happy to read this shawn, DREWBIE WHERE ARE YOU!? so I came up with this build on competitive 2v2 about 6 years ago shawn, and stuck with it until I quit bw. Drewbie always said it was weak and I should do standard, but i kept doing it and we kept winning in 2v2 pretty much against everyone... LOL that's too funny (ofc when we lost my build was bad right drew?) it was perfect for holding up 1v2 with hatch @ ramp, and once lings came out i had more than z though slower speed, it worked good cause we were z/t...and then apparently it became popular L O L, morale boost!!! (you ok drew?)
lesson of the day: use your brains guys, guides are great reference and it lets you into the player's head, but you need to test out what works for you, like Drazzzzt for example : if the average gamer could hold Tester then he wouldn't be so average would he? its about what works for you and practicing on it repeatedly, you can be taught the best swimming technique and it doesnt mean that by using it you're gonna come close to beating Michael Phelps (not even if he's high).
I've gone 2nd hatch inside my base at least a good 5-10 times vs protoss and I've managed to beat people like Ace with it, shawn has tried it and doesnt like it, I don't mind it so much because when my exp is up its automatically saturated (but ofc its super situational), and sometimes you can't risk an expansion anywhere for whatever reasons and have to adapt, point im trying to make is it might not be ideal, but adapting is a very important part of the game, rarely everything goes as planned. But again, it is less than ideal, your build Mr.Templar, grants the protoss map control and leaves you with little to no mobility, it sounds like something you'd do to tech fast... but then again 1 hatch would be more effective if that was what you're going for, in sc1 we had no queens now we do. At higher level play you will get punished for anything you do or don't do, and if you don't take advantage of everything you're behind, period. but if he gets super fast gates or tried to cannon you or does something risky that sets him behind, drop a hatch inside your base, or tech faster switch your build arround to adapt, only knowing that he's sacrificed economy as well to do this.
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United States2095 Posts
You called me Sehth, its Sheth so I called you Fetmplar. (Using the same code of name switching as you ;P)
Making a second hatchery inside of your main base can be an "ok" strategy. If this was chess I would give it a ?!. (?! means its surprising and probably slightly worse then a normal move) I'll explain my reasons why to you.
Pre- Your larva will cap at three and then the hatchery won't make anymore without you spitting on the hatchery. So once you've gotten past three you will lose that extra larva every 15 seconds. (I have no idea how often they spawn, but 15 sounds close) However like you said you will have stock piled larva up. This can be good, but risky if you never get to fully use them all.
1- There are several ways around this slight problem. You can do what I like to call the idra/artosis queen and have ur queen on its second 25 minerals make a creep on its way to their second expansion, or you can simply make a 3rd queen and have it defend and make those extra creeps in your main. So I don't feel like this is a HUGE deal, but I understand what your saying.
2- Putting spine crawlers on high ground is a two edged sword. It will be very difficult for the early army of P to see those crawlers. However it will be dificult for the crawlers to hit the P army if they crawl along the side. So by the time you would want these crawlers on high ground ( mid game at earliest ) you should have spread the creep up to that area anyway.
3- MORE DRONESSSSS ))))))) However my point two kind o covers this as well. More drones for everyone!!
Now the reasoning why I gave it ?!. This allows you to get a lot of extra zerglings or roaches early on. I feel that if the protoss doesn't see this building and he thinks you are teching up from 1 base, (he'll see that you don't' have an expansion up) he will make less defence against either lings or banelings or roaches. So I feel like if you want an interesting cheese, hide that second hatch and make him think your teching while doing an early sneak attack!
Hope this helped!
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As a Protoss, its nice to get a good insight on diamond level zerg players' minds like Sheth and Catz. Learning a match-up inside out is part of mastering PvZ as much as this is about ZvP
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Thanks a ton for this man! It was a very helpful read. I would love to see ZvT and ZvZ as well.
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On June 30 2010 02:45 Paramore wrote:As a Protoss, its nice to get a good insight on diamond level zerg players' minds like Sheth and Catz. Learning a match-up inside out is part of mastering PvZ as much as this is about ZvP
this is all Sheth, I just get carried away by my zerg passion
(sorry about that shawny!)
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Good points Sheth (sorry for the typo :p)
If I understand correctly what you're saying, because of the fact I'm not harvesting from 2 mineral patches I will have less money to spend, thus = larva wasted. Right?
Correct me if I am wrong: Very often we see (even high ranked) zerg players early expand and, because of the other player's agressiveness, they tend to not have THAT many drones at their expo for quite a while because they're so focused on having to build zerglings / roaches to defend / repel. In such situations, I don't feel that I would not have *that* much less money than early expand builds, to the point that i'm wasting those "15 sec" larvas.
Personally I take these defensife situations for granted because, if we as zerg are not being pressured almost right from the start, then already I would say that we have an edge in the game.
What's your take on this?
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United States2095 Posts
Paramore -- Glad your enjoying it :D Next you need to post a P guide so I can learn!
TheAngelOfDeath -- Glad to see! Hopefully people like you will keep me motivated to finish my ZvT Guide.
CatZ -- Team Root ftw ^^
FTemplar -- All good. "If I understand correctly what you're saying, because of the fact I'm not harvesting from 2 mineral patches I will have less money to spend, thus = larva wasted. Right?" This is right except instead of 2 mineral patches its 7 or 8 depending on the map.
Its true that in early ZvP you won't have any drones at your natural until you've defended the early zealot. So its not that important that its early, however you will have to spend an extra 300 minerals and a drone to make another hatchery at your second minerals, and the time it will take to make is also very long. You lose a lot by not having a second hatchery up fairly early.
Pressure early... hmmm... I feel like if they don't scout to know what I'm doing then I have a slight edge as long as I've scouted what their doing. I think its all about the knowledge you have of what your opponents plan is and how you will counter it. ^^
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On June 30 2010 02:58 FTemplar wrote: Correct me if I am wrong: Very often we see (even high ranked) zerg players early expand and, because of the other player's agressiveness, they tend to not have THAT many drones at their expo for quite a while because they're so focused on having to build zerglings / roaches to defend / repel.
If you feel like you need to build the second hatcheriy anyway, it's almost always going to be better to build the second one at your expansion.
Zerglings require big areas to work in. Anytime you narrow the combat area, you're giving a huge advantage to the zealots. So, building a hatchery at the top of your ramp is going to be much more in favor of the protoss than the zerg, because protoss units are much better in tight chokes than zerg units are. This is why a protoss can choke his ramp, block the remaining space with one zealot, and hold off ridiculous numbers of zerglings while only requiring very small amounts of backup.
Also, there's something to be said for narrowing the protoss options by expanding, so if you're confident that you can hold off any sort of harass and end up ahead, it can actually be a really good thing to force their hand, even if it means you can't actually build drones from the second hatchery for a while. (but that would be true regardless of where you decide to place the second hatch)
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On June 30 2010 02:23 Sheth wrote:Next batch of answers to questions/thoughts : figq -- I'm glad you've thought a lot about what I've wrote. The weakest points in this build I would say are the transitions. Figuring out when to stop making zerglings and start making drones, figuring out when exactly to put drones back on gas, figuring out when to make a lair, and figuring out how many queens you should get. You want to do all of those things while keeping your economy similar to the Protoss'. With zealots vs. zerglings yes its important to have around 4 per zealot. Its also important to not engage (get near enough that the zealots can attack your lings) before you have enough to kill the zealots. IF they can escape their shields regenerates really quick. A small tip you can do is select two zerglnigs and have them focus fire down the probe. I find that really helps! Diamond -- Thanks for looking out for me! <3 Ouga -- Thanks! Yeah I wanted to go more into middle game, but I was daunted by the many different buildings and build orders I could talk about. Hopefully I'll have the motivation to go into it fairly soon tho! Naniwa -- I appreciate that you don't want other zerg styles to try this. Hopefully no other zergs realize that when a protoss calls a build newbish they just don't want you to do it vs. them. Zergsecs -- I'm glad your interested in me having a stream up! I had an old one that I attempted to stream from several times, however I will have a new one up shortly. I'll keep in touch with you so you have it! (Cool I have someone who'll watch me stream XD!) Merikh -- Wow. Um I don't really know, I've never tried it personally. It sounds like a very anti-pressure early build. I think it could definetly have posibilities I've never heard of it so I can't really talk about it from personal experience. However if your having trouble vs. a protoss early it sounds like a good option! (Besides if TLO does it, it can't be that bad! -- Read its awesome) Paramore -- Its not a very slow second hatch, in fact its faster then if you make a 14 pool 15 hatch, because you will be able to avoid the probe that makes your 14 pool 15 hatch a 14 pool 19 hatch. There is no innate proxy-voidray that works wonders against this, no matter what build order you do as zerg you have to watch for those evil flying death beams.
I've used it few times, was just curious seems to work good off one base until you can secure a second.
I'm also curious if you played with 1 base hydra opening? I call it the DabOo build (he was just dominating with this on the EU server for a while) basically. 12/13 pool, extractor -> queen -> 2 spine crawlers (and couple lings if necessary) -> lair with first 100 gas, get 2nd gas as lair goes up. Get OL speed once lair finishes. Drop hydralisk den and produce hydras. Position OL's by ramp, reposition spine crawlers then grab an expo.
I used to open like that ^ betas been down so long forgot the exact BO, but it was really effective against any 1 gate/1 gate 1 stargate opening and made it super easy to secure your second. I also think this build is really strong against any FE with cannon opening because hydras just tear through cannons like its nothing. Works best on maps like steppes and scrap.
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On June 30 2010 00:56 Sheth wrote: Drazzt -- Very interesting question. I find that if you go 13 pool it will definetly provide you with enough lings compared with 15 pool. I would compare it with Mondragons 9 hatch 9 pool build vs. the old 12 hatch 11 pool build. 12 hatch is VERY hard to defend a good 2 gate build, where as with 9 hatch 9 pool its easier. Howevever if you just can't hold it with zerglings, a good idea is to make 4-5 roaches to pressure him, but don't feel like you have to kill him. These roaches should just be used to chase zealots and force him to cannon or stalker / sentry. (When you go roaches tho be careful Protoss like to make voidrays vs. roach zergs!)
Thanks for your answer, I like your style of answering to all ppl in the thread btw. GJ.
It definitely becomes easier and I sometimes even tried 12 pool to be even more safe, but against very good zeal micro I still have a hard time. Probably my ling micro isnt top notch, but I have to say that compared to SC1 I find it kinda annoying that your lings after popping out are on attack-move towards the rally point (or is there a way to avoid this?). So, if you don't look very closely at your 2nd hatch, your lings tend to sacrifice themselves in no-time against the zeals bashing your hatch (and good protoss move their zeals right to your eggs while hatch-bashing in order to get several hits before you can move the lings away). Using your queen is very dangerous as the zeals come so earlier that you dont have much creep and queens are so awfully slow and die so fast to zeals. Later its getting a little better. One game I lost because the protoss added 3-4 probes to his attacking zeals which is really hardcore. I should've probably just cancelled the hatch as pulling probes costs quite a lot of minerals, but I am not sure.
So, this is the reason why I experimented with roach openings in the end expanding only at around 30 supply after having 3-5 roaches (depending on what I scout). At least against 2-gate openings.
Protoss has to be very careful then, because I can add a lot of roaches very fast and without cannons he can be in trouble soon.
So, when protoss fast-expands and adds cannons you have enough time to pump pure drones later on which will lead to a slight income advantage.
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Thanks a lot for posting this Sheth, I appreciate the opening knowledge ^^
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in the op you said burning when you were talking about maps that are bad for 14 hatch, what you meant was blistering [sands].
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Hi Sheth,
Thank you for posting this guide, I'm really happy to see it because I've spent the last few days designing a build to deal with P blocking the expo hatch with a pylon; I'm excited to compare my build with yours. I too felt that getting a 14 pool 16 hatch is too risky to be called "standard".
I'll list it for you below in case it generates any more great ideas. It was based off of these core goals: - earliest 2nd hatch asap after 4 lings kill a pylon at expo (takes approx 12 seconds for 4 lings to kill pylon) - build doesn't hurt economy - can deal with early pressure or cheese - first 100 gas makes speedlings, second 100 gas makes lair
9 Overlord (queue 14th drone egg to scout) 14 pool 16 Overlord @ pool finishes -> Queen + 4 lings + extractor @ lings born -> send drone with lings to expo and build hatch asap 200 minerals in the bank when expo hatch is placed - can spend it on a 2nd queen, a roach warren, or 2 spine crawlers @100 gas -> ling speed @100 gas -> lair
It's flexible (gives me options with the 200 minerals), allows my expo at 3:45 game time, strong economy (comparable to 14 pool 16 hatch)
I notice that the differences between your build and mine is that yours is safer against rushes, but has less emphasis on economy.
Have you tested getting a delayed gas and ling speed? I'm curious to understand more about why you sacrifice your droning power to get faster ling speed. I still get ling speed, but just a couple minutes later. I don't think I lose ZvP games where I say "if only I had ling speed 2 minutes ago I wouldn't have lost".
Earlier gas = less money to spend on more drones, although early ling speed im sure is very helpful against reaper harass, but your build is for ZvP.
I`m also considering making a 13 pool version of the build I listed above, just to have a build that`s a little safer.
PS: do you use a scouting drone in your build, or do you have success with just waiting for the lings as your scouts
Thanks again!
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No mention of building a queen in the beginning part of the build.. 16'th drone straight into mass lings But then wayyyy later on it states to build one early on... a bit confusing
Either way, very nice. I read it even though my ZvP is my strongest, you should write a ZvT one, as thats my worst MU due to mech.. =D
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When i see that Toss is going Fast Forge expand i usually Rush to nydus worm they never see it because their buildings are at the front of their big base early game works pretty much every time.
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Sheth just a few points:
1. Protoss and terran do structure blocks in SCBW a lot too. FE is even more important for zerg in that game - yet still zergs manage to deal with things like that. Also, a 13pool doesn't prevent probe/pylon block anyway - just a bit faster hatch (if blocked) at the cost of a lower economy. Personally I don't have much against 13 pool on a small map though, since it's good vs zealots, my main gripe is getting speed.
2. I am still not bought on getting early speed just to justify dealing with early zealot harass. Yes speedlings are very important or even necessary vs protoss, but not for dealing with zealots. The problem is that zergling speed takes a long time to get. At 13 pool 13 extractor there will be a delay after the pool finishes before speed could be researched. Combine that with the big head start the hatchery (100s) has before the pool finishes, and the fact that speed is 110s to research, and you'll be looking at quite a long time before the speed can be put to use, as opposed to just getting a hatchery and spine crawler(s) which is faster. Not only that, but one gets the benefit of having a hatchery up earlier. Don't build spines if they aren't zealot pressuring - I don't think one can say similar for getting speed.
3. I read your note on drone swapping when done. It doesn't mean you didn't just spend 100/100 on an early upgrade - It still hinders your economy. I also understand the build isn't only against FE - I don't know how you came up with me thinking that.
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I do like the speed a lot, with it you do not even have to fight zealots, you can do a run-by and he will be in big trouble.
Thanks for sharing it with us and for answering to questions! very nice indeed!
Please ZvP that is my biggest problem case light is so vulnerable to everything and roach die so quick to M&M and if i go muta he will just roll me. My biggest problem is with Bio-Siege cause stim just kills everything and even if i outnumber him greatly siege will seal the deal.
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Thanks for the guide Sheth! Really appreciate it when the pros take time to spread some knowledge.
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