EPTI would love to see a guide to ZvZ especially one that talks about when and how to follow up a baneling opening
[G] ZvP Sheth's Guide - Page 3
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ascoe
Korea (South)133 Posts
I would love to see a guide to ZvZ especially one that talks about when and how to follow up a baneling opening | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Basically it says that a good opening is 13 pool with ling speed and then a expansion but when or what exactly it's a bit fuzzy. | ||
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Lighioana
Norway466 Posts
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naniwa1
Sweden36 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Drazzzt
Germany999 Posts
Sheth, have you ever played against a very (!) skilled 2-gate opening on (even only rather) close positions? Right now I still have to see a hatch (after pool) built before speed finishes which doesnt go down _or_ leads to a economic disadvantage. I really don't think you can hold a 15 hatch after pool against this (probably only with losing drones or lots of collecting time). So, you seem to be very confident that you can hold it, and probably you could (even against tester or w/e, even though I still doubt it :-) ), but the "average" gamer could probably not. So, what would you do in his or her stead? Thx | ||
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Carga
Netherlands58 Posts
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FTemplar
Canada70 Posts
What do you think about the idea of still getting a fast 2nd hatchery, but putting it in your main, or just before the ramp? FTemplar | ||
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Lighioana
Norway466 Posts
On June 29 2010 20:52 naniwa wrote: lol what a noobish playstyle :[ Instead of trolling you might wanna motivate your opinion. | ||
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aLt)nirvana
Singapore848 Posts
sheth add a replay pack up imo | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
thank you, that was a very nice read. Would share what are the weakest points of the build - i.e. what caused you the most losses? It would help to concentrate some special attention to those moments. I think this tends to be often tricky: On June 29 2010 05:05 Sheth wrote: So you mean pull the army away, and avoid engaging, until it's enforced to the proper size - I think most new players have a hard time measuring this timing adequately (either engage too early or too late). What do you do as proper ling micro vs zealots? Attack each zealot with 4 lings (is there efficient way to execute this?), or all on one, or just normal ground A-click plus a few focused ones? Do you run away with lings that are low on health, or there's no point / is too hard to execute?I love going 13 pool because these initial zerglings + your first queen can provide a solid defence vs. a rush. You will be able to get your zerglings out in time to defend your hatchery if you properly micro. Don’t be afraid to let your hatchery take some damage from a probe and a few zealots. You don’t want to attack until you have an advantage. Hope you do the ZvT and ZvZ too, many subtle helpful bits were found here. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 29 2010 20:52 naniwa wrote: lol what a noobish playstyle :[ Lol prove it and play him in the next ITL this Sunday or next Sunday (whenever the beta comes back up). Sheth already accepted the match. How about you? | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
For a while I thought I'd try starting with roaches since lings will become pretty bad in lategame while roaches don't, but the early gas mining thing is actually HUGE. Taking the gasminers out makes such big difference, so you actually lose eco by trusting early defense on roaches instead of gain late advantage when you end up mining 200+ gas instead of round 100. The pre-hat gas for speed and then drones off seems like the standard eco/safe build for zvp. I might've nagged on how guide about almost only early BO isn't worth posting, but for zvp it pretty much equals most knowledge you'll need. Once you've managed to go for your max drone amount, til the point where you start making more units than drones. It's actually pretty simple to make the remaining units, usually around roach/hydra/spire axis, once you're economically clear of trouble. | ||
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naniwa1
Sweden36 Posts
On June 30 2010 00:16 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Lol prove it and play him in the next ITL this Sunday or next Sunday (whenever the beta comes back up). Sheth already accepted the match. How about you? i accept. | ||
Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
Blade -- I understand what your saying and I didn't mean to imply that the only way to kill the probe was with speed. I will adjust how I wrote that thank you. And I wasn't saying that its the best build just that I feel its an important build to have in your repiotoire. Its also my favorite and I feel it gets me in the best mid game position. ^^; Brokengamer -- Awesome! So glad you enjoyed it and now hopefully your macro will kick in! ascoe -- Thanks you too, I will work on a ZvZ guide at some point in the future! (If beta comes up soon it might take a bit, I have a few big things to do such as work on streaming, casting, and of course practicing.) Markwerf -- I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. I'll try next time to make it easier to read. Also if the when to make a 13 pool is fuzzy, I meant its at 13 drones so you would be at 13/13 on the population meter. Lighioana -- For both your posts, thank you. (Good use of the word Troll!) Drazzt -- Very interesting question. I find that if you go 13 pool it will definetly provide you with enough lings compared with 15 pool. I would compare it with Mondragons 9 hatch 9 pool build vs. the old 12 hatch 11 pool build. 12 hatch is VERY hard to defend a good 2 gate build, where as with 9 hatch 9 pool its easier. Howevever if you just can't hold it with zerglings, a good idea is to make 4-5 roaches to pressure him, but don't feel like you have to kill him. These roaches should just be used to chase zealots and force him to cannon or stalker / sentry. (When you go roaches tho be careful Protoss like to make voidrays vs. roach zergs!) Carga -- I'm glad it helped you! If it helps 1-2 people be better players I will be happy. FeTmplar --(See what I did there?) Now onto your question, I've tried making a second hatchery in my main. I don't feel this is ... I feel a good word is precise. If you ever listened to Nony talking about SC1 he talks about his visit in korea and how the koreans will make just the right ammount of producing buildings (gateways, barracks) that you will always be using them. So there would be no reason to make a 5th gateway if you could use ALL your minerals making units out of 4 gateways. I feel like with that 2nd hatchery in your main without an expansion you will be wasting alot of larva. I just feel like thats a sin lol  aLT)Nirvana -- Yeah hes cute, I still like Idra more tho. You should read the idra's quote page its epic. I would love to post a replay pack, however I re-installed my sc2 so I don't have any replays left. I will try and put one up whenever phase 2 comes up! | ||
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ZergSecs
Sweden10 Posts
>I have a few big things to do such as work on streaming, casting, and of course practicing.) You have a stream on ustream/livestream? ^ nvm, found it. Do you have any specific times when you usually stream or is it just random, like when you feel to stream? | ||
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On June 30 2010 02:16 EnderCN wrote: You can hold off early void rays quite easily with just queens. That would be true if there were only voidrays to worry about.... | ||
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
figq -- I'm glad you've thought a lot about what I've wrote. The weakest points in this build I would say are the transitions. Figuring out when to stop making zerglings and start making drones, figuring out when exactly to put drones back on gas, figuring out when to make a lair, and figuring out how many queens you should get. You want to do all of those things while keeping your economy similar to the Protoss'. With zealots vs. zerglings yes its important to have around 4 per zealot. Its also important to not engage (get near enough that the zealots can attack your lings) before you have enough to kill the zealots. IF they can escape their shields regenerates really quick. A small tip you can do is select two zerglnigs and have them focus fire down the probe. I find that really helps! Diamond -- Thanks for looking out for me! <3 Ouga -- Thanks! Yeah I wanted to go more into middle game, but I was daunted by the many different buildings and build orders I could talk about. Hopefully I'll have the motivation to go into it fairly soon tho! Naniwa -- I appreciate that you don't want other zerg styles to try this. Hopefully no other zergs realize that when a protoss calls a build newbish they just don't want you to do it vs. them. Zergsecs -- I'm glad your interested in me having a stream up! I had an old one that I attempted to stream from several times, however I will have a new one up shortly. I'll keep in touch with you so you have it! (Cool I have someone who'll watch me stream XD!) Merikh -- Wow. Um I don't really know, I've never tried it personally. It sounds like a very anti-pressure early build. I think it could definetly have posibilities I've never heard of it so I can't really talk about it from personal experience. However if your having trouble vs. a protoss early it sounds like a good option! (Besides if TLO does it, it can't be that bad! -- Read its awesome) Paramore -- Its not a very slow second hatch, in fact its faster then if you make a 14 pool 15 hatch, because you will be able to avoid the probe that makes your 14 pool 15 hatch a 14 pool 19 hatch. There is no innate proxy-voidray that works wonders against this, no matter what build order you do as zerg you have to watch for those evil flying death beams. | ||
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