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On July 02 2010 01:39 Floophead_III wrote:
There's a lot of good advice in this thread, though I'm curious as to why you go early lingspeed. I find speedlings to be incredibly inefficient and uneffective units in ZvP and gassing that early makes you significantly behind if you don't deal some sort of damage or force a reaction, even if you do pull off at 100 and drone heavily.
I do agree that 14 hatch is a super risky low gain build and should only be used in the same way that 1 rax FE (vs P) or 3 hatch before pool is used in BW - a slight eco cheese best saved for BOx matches.
My build of choice is 15 pool 16 hatch 15 drone 16 lord then zerglings or drones + queen depending on if you have to defend something. I like to double gas on 24 (right when my first queen pops out) unless I'm fending off some sort of rush in which case it will naturally be a little later.
Something I also do which I think every single zerg should do is throw down 1-2 crawlers as soon as your natural goes up (earlier if you suspect multiple reapers or 2 gate!). I also believe that vs protoss your best choice is 2 hatch hydra. I don't like muta openings since phoenix and archons are quite strong vs them so the only thing they're good vs is robo openings, and often robo openings can get an obs in your base before muta pop so toss can be ready.
A very important thing to do vs 1 base protoss:
-make at least 4-5 crawlers. Do NOT make zerglings. Save energy with queens and don't use spawn larvas! You want to have tranfusions ready to keep your crawlers alive as long as possible while you wait for hydras.
-Wall with an evo chamber at your natural! This is great vs meching Terrans too since it mucks up hellions, and it makes zealots much weaker, just like in BW.
-Make sure not to overdrone before hydras are out! Very rarely will protosses stay on 1 base and then not do a massive push. You don't really want to be more than 40 food drones+queens vs a 1 basing protoss is what I found.
For me the scariest thing is fighting a gate/forge expand (very difficult to break) into a 3/4 gate 2 robo blink stalker/coli army. When Protoss plays aggressive with blink stalkers using them for harass until he gets 4-5 colossi it's very difficult make enough stuff to break that giant protoss ball. How do you go about dealing with this?
Currently I've found 3 acceptable solutions, but how viable they are is rather difficult to address.
-The first is going hydra/baneling/ling and using banelings to force protoss to spread out making hydra much stronger or lose their meatshield leaving the colossi vulnerable to ling/hydra (zerglings do fairly well vs colossi if they can reach them.) This is one of the few times I'd make speedlings vs protoss.
-The second is going for infestors and using fungal growth to keep zealots away, and coli from kiting, then using NP on the coli. The problem I forsee is that getting enough infestors while keeping a decent hydracount might prove impossible. It might be better open roach in this scenario and get a few extra queens for AA.
-The third is getting corruptors but honestly I find them ineffective and it's impossible to know what ratio of corruptor/ground you need.
edit: fungal doesn't stop stalkers from blinking sadly =[
Glad you've backed off Sheth. He's a good player, and more impressively, insanely patient and nice. He's taken crap from a lot of lesser players in this thread and has yet to lose his cool. Plus he PMed me about zealot micro. Nice guy.
Anyway, regarding the content of your post....I'd disagree about a bunch of things. First, zerglings are a very good option in ZvP. Roach tech is a big expense in the early game, and its' best to avoid it if possible since roaches can only be used defensively till lair. Second, early zergling speed does not put you behind Protoss economically. Sure, it puts you behind where you could have been economically had you lucked into Protoss not rushing, but you're not behind your opponent. It's just a safe way to start that makes sure you're at least even. Third, you mentioned 15 pool 16 hatch against 2-gate. That's a certain loss against any good player on a lot of maps. Fourth, you definitely can make zerglings against 1-base Protoss. Watch an Idra or Artosis replay. They delay hydras until they have a ton of drones to support them, so their 4-gate rush defense is pure lings and spine crawlers. Lastly, corruptors are definitely the best way to handle collosi. There's a reason Blizz gave them bonus damage to massive. And hydra-baneling? Hydras already own gateway units--they just need a meat shield to tank damage for them. Banelings: not the answer.
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Wow Cats I think you are over reacting a bit in some of your posts responding to flopp. Its not like he said "wow sheth's build is terrible" he was just giving some what he finds advice.
You can be a top player but that does not mean someone who is not at your level doesn't know anything (while a lot of the time can be true its just pure ignorant to not consider what he said let alone insult him just because you think your better).
I found it extremely annoying how you talked to him how you automatically assumed you were a ton better and he was a gold player. That is not the attitude you should be responding to his post I am sorry but that is just disrespectful and rude.
While I don't agree with much of what flopp is saying as advice you don't' need to act that way towards him, in future reference would be better if you handled it more maturely not the "insult him and call him a terrible player because I disagree with him".
Now for any top players like Sheth who do guides like this it is awesome and glad he took the time to do it for other players and would like to see a zvt guide at some point in the future to see if his style I might get some better idea's for zvt (that matchup is my weird matchup I do extremely good at it some times, others its terrible). Hopefully Sheth if you do a zvt guide I can steal some idea's from you 
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On July 02 2010 11:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:39 Floophead_III wrote:
There's a lot of good advice in this thread, though I'm curious as to why you go early lingspeed. I find speedlings to be incredibly inefficient and uneffective units in ZvP and gassing that early makes you significantly behind if you don't deal some sort of damage or force a reaction, even if you do pull off at 100 and drone heavily.
I do agree that 14 hatch is a super risky low gain build and should only be used in the same way that 1 rax FE (vs P) or 3 hatch before pool is used in BW - a slight eco cheese best saved for BOx matches.
My build of choice is 15 pool 16 hatch 15 drone 16 lord then zerglings or drones + queen depending on if you have to defend something. I like to double gas on 24 (right when my first queen pops out) unless I'm fending off some sort of rush in which case it will naturally be a little later.
Something I also do which I think every single zerg should do is throw down 1-2 crawlers as soon as your natural goes up (earlier if you suspect multiple reapers or 2 gate!). I also believe that vs protoss your best choice is 2 hatch hydra. I don't like muta openings since phoenix and archons are quite strong vs them so the only thing they're good vs is robo openings, and often robo openings can get an obs in your base before muta pop so toss can be ready.
A very important thing to do vs 1 base protoss:
-make at least 4-5 crawlers. Do NOT make zerglings. Save energy with queens and don't use spawn larvas! You want to have tranfusions ready to keep your crawlers alive as long as possible while you wait for hydras.
-Wall with an evo chamber at your natural! This is great vs meching Terrans too since it mucks up hellions, and it makes zealots much weaker, just like in BW.
-Make sure not to overdrone before hydras are out! Very rarely will protosses stay on 1 base and then not do a massive push. You don't really want to be more than 40 food drones+queens vs a 1 basing protoss is what I found.
For me the scariest thing is fighting a gate/forge expand (very difficult to break) into a 3/4 gate 2 robo blink stalker/coli army. When Protoss plays aggressive with blink stalkers using them for harass until he gets 4-5 colossi it's very difficult make enough stuff to break that giant protoss ball. How do you go about dealing with this?
Currently I've found 3 acceptable solutions, but how viable they are is rather difficult to address.
-The first is going hydra/baneling/ling and using banelings to force protoss to spread out making hydra much stronger or lose their meatshield leaving the colossi vulnerable to ling/hydra (zerglings do fairly well vs colossi if they can reach them.) This is one of the few times I'd make speedlings vs protoss.
-The second is going for infestors and using fungal growth to keep zealots away, and coli from kiting, then using NP on the coli. The problem I forsee is that getting enough infestors while keeping a decent hydracount might prove impossible. It might be better open roach in this scenario and get a few extra queens for AA.
-The third is getting corruptors but honestly I find them ineffective and it's impossible to know what ratio of corruptor/ground you need.
edit: fungal doesn't stop stalkers from blinking sadly =[ Glad you've backed off Sheth. He's a good player, and more impressively, insanely patient and nice. He's taken crap from a lot of lesser players in this thread and has yet to lose his cool. Plus he PMed me about zealot micro. Nice guy. Anyway, regarding the content of your post....I'd disagree about a bunch of things. First, zerglings are a very good option in ZvP. Roach tech is a big expense in the early game, and its' best to avoid it if possible since roaches can only be used defensively till lair. Second, early zergling speed does not put you behind Protoss economically. Sure, it puts you behind where you could have been economically had you lucked into Protoss not rushing, but you're not behind your opponent. It's just a safe way to start that makes sure you're at least even. Third, you mentioned 15 pool 16 hatch against 2-gate. That's a certain loss against any good player on a lot of maps. Fourth, you definitely can make zerglings against 1-base Protoss. Watch an Idra or Artosis replay. They delay hydras until they have a ton of drones to support them, so their 4-gate rush defense is pure lings and spine crawlers. Lastly, corruptors are definitely the best way to handle collosi. There's a reason Blizz gave them bonus damage to massive. And hydra-baneling? Hydras already own gateway units--they just need a meat shield to tank damage for them. Banelings: not the answer.
Well on some blizz maps 15 pool 16 hatch is a little too economic, but on any reasonable rush distance its fine. Quite frankly all the blizzard maps aside from maybe metalopolis are garbage, even LT. Rush distances are really short and every map is abusable. Point is, on maps like steppes, just go 15/14 or 13/12. Vs 2 gate you have to make crawlers in your main before the hatch is done so you can move them down instantly. A crawler in back if your lings/queen is everything.
You definitely can make zerglings vs 1 base protoss on maps with naturals that can't be defended by crawlers alone (scrap, sands, DO). However if given a choice I'd much rather go with pure crawler/queen.
Lastly, Corruptors are of course the best anti colossi unit, but they can't shoot ground and you really can't kill 4-5 colossi fast enough to save your ground army. You'll be left with corruptors vs gateway units which can get real ugly real fast. They do work sometimes, but I don't see them consistently being effective. I see players go corruptors and lose horribly all the time. It might not be a great solution but it probably is the best. Doesn't mean we should stop looking though.
As for hydra/baneling, that's more of an experimental strategy. It doesn't show as much promise as I'd hoped for but it does work if there's low sentry numbers. Just rhrew it out there to see the response mostly.
Edit:
Also Sheth I'd really like to hear your thoughts on ZvT. That's by far my best and most explored matchup (from both sides) and I don't think there's been any good ZvT guides yet.
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Roaming -- I'm sorry that I'm not being very helpful to ya. My whole point of writing this was to help. All I can say is that it made sense to a lot of other people. There are some situations where you can hatch first. Bet you didn't know that? Either way... I'll work on more guides that are simpler to understand. Also possibly shorter... I'll see
It's always helpful to see what other people are thinking, my point was just that if you're going to go to the time of writing up a guide, I'd personally benefit more from some of the ideas behind why you do things than just hard and fast rules. If I don't do exactly what you say blindly I gain nothing without the logic behind it.
However, if i know you're getting ling speed to deal with hellions in a certain match up then it helps not only remember to do it, but gives you purpose to do it.
Best regards. Thanks for taking the time to help us wee peons.
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Nice guide! I'd wish there was a ZvT guide cause i'd like see how a zerg player would think in that match up, since i'm Terran myself. Plus it'd be hot rawr. :D
BTW, love TL for having all these in-depth discussions threads about matchups and strategies etc.
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chozen! completely off topic, but i wanted to say i enjoy your commentaries.
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Real nice guide.
EDIT: Make that an awsome guide! "Real nice" doesn't give it nearly enough credit.
Guess I got some a opening to try when Beta comes back. I now normally go 12 pool with 6 early lings and a queen into second queen/second hatch.
I agree with needing lings to expand, the probe control on some people is quite impressive
One problem I have now, which I'm guess I will have with your build also, is being terrified of playing blind without having an early lair. I fly my overlord into the Toss base but then I mostly try to position it to see him moving out or to check the timing on his expansion. I never seem to commit it to a suicide scout. I also seem to think it will be impossible for a slow-lord to see the potential stargates if he has a stalker running around...
What I do now is get gas around 19, together with the second hatch and spend the first 100 on an early lair, just to be on the safe side.
Do you have the same problem? If I see 5 zealots, I would probably spam some lings or crawlers to hold them off and it seems from your guide you would too. That would mean I have drones on minerals and not on gas.
If he has spend his gas on air, I'm pretty much dead. I have a second queen but neither have energy for transfusion (creep tumor and larva take precedence) so I can't seem to win against air.
Do you always sack the overlord in that case?
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On July 02 2010 12:00 blade55555 wrote:Wow Cats I think you are over reacting a bit in some of your posts responding to flopp. Its not like he said "wow sheth's build is terrible" he was just giving some what he finds advice. You can be a top player but that does not mean someone who is not at your level doesn't know anything (while a lot of the time can be true its just pure ignorant to not consider what he said let alone insult him just because you think your better). I found it extremely annoying how you talked to him how you automatically assumed you were a ton better and he was a gold player. That is not the attitude you should be responding to his post I am sorry but that is just disrespectful and rude. While I don't agree with much of what flopp is saying as advice you don't' need to act that way towards him, in future reference would be better if you handled it more maturely not the "insult him and call him a terrible player because I disagree with him". Now for any top players like Sheth who do guides like this it is awesome and glad he took the time to do it for other players and would like to see a zvt guide at some point in the future to see if his style I might get some better idea's for zvt (that matchup is my weird matchup I do extremely good at it some times, others its terrible). Hopefully Sheth if you do a zvt guide I can steal some idea's from you
wow blade it looks like you didn't read my last post directed towards him, after he apologized so did I, I made my point, that's all there is to it. My first post is as blatantly honest as he was with his. I was talking with sheth at the time of his post and he just gets frustrated, but is too nice to be a honest, im not.
Its really a shame that you find it annoying, It wouldn't have been any nicer from me to sit down and (im sorry if this is annoying too) waste my time, listing point by point the flaws in his post. Im sorry flop (for going back to where we started here) to explain blade, but seriously speaking that first post does not sound like a question, it sounds like a guide that discredit's sheth's guide, saying stuff doesnt work and how it should be done.
I don't think that a Terran player, who says 'get infestors to stop stalkers from blink' is in a position to correct my teammate, and so I posted my thoughts, straight up, just like he did, really sorry if it offends anyone.
If you have any more criticism related to behavior or anything else, please pm me
Btw my name is CatZ not CatS, I don't think I am a 'pure ignorant' in this regard, I didn't insult him (but you insulted me plenty), I stated my opinion just like he did his.
I did not call him a terrible player, I simply stated that based on his display of knowledge of Zerg (that we later learned is his offrace) I didn't think he'd be above gold, I don't see how that's offensive, but I have plenty of friends in gold that know fungal growth won't stop stalkers from blinking, or that Corruptors are a perfectly fine and viable answer to colossus, I don't want to say the best because the game isnt close to fully explored at this point, but I will say at this point in time, it is the most acceptable/viable.
So Blake pm me if you need to say anything else, and for the record I find your post as disrespectful / pure ignorant / rude / annoying & immature, as you found mine to be.
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Great early game ZvP tips Sheth, thanks for the effort you put into this.
What are your thoughts on roach openings? I find that most P's don't expect them post-patch and I can win a lot of games with roach all-ins. If I scout adequate defense I can use my roaches to deny scouting, maintain the threat of an all-in and power as with a standard build.
Also, I'd kill for a ZvT guide one of these days. :D
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On July 02 2010 01:39 Floophead_III wrote:
Currently I've found 3 acceptable solutions, but how viable they are is rather difficult to address.
-The first is going hydra/baneling/ling and using banelings to force protoss to spread out making hydra much stronger or lose their meatshield leaving the colossi vulnerable to ling/hydra (zerglings do fairly well vs colossi if they can reach them.) This is one of the few times I'd make speedlings vs protoss.
-The second is going for infestors and using fungal growth to keep zealots away, and coli from kiting, then using NP on the coli. The problem I forsee is that getting enough infestors while keeping a decent hydracount might prove impossible. It might be better open roach in this scenario and get a few extra queens for AA.
-The third is getting corruptors but honestly I find them ineffective and it's impossible to know what ratio of corruptor/ground you need.
edit: fungal doesn't stop stalkers from blinking sadly =[
What's the reason you don't use Ultras?
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Wooot! Pretty solid. I do pretty much all of that. I wish you were a little more specific on build orders tho. =P
I'd definitely read ZvT/ZvZ guides tho so if you're up for it I'm sure it would be appreciated. xD
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I don't know if i should be saying this or not, but the argument between CatZ and Floop kinda entertained me a little bit as i read the posts. I do somewhat understand how both of you guys felt offended but I prefer not taking sides. Besides this thread is to help people with ZvP, and not to argue. Now that you guys apologized to each other, the argument should be officially over. Thus no one should drag on this argument again. Don't even remotely bring up the argument (blade and others). Instead assist players that need help in ZvP which is the purpose of this thread and Sheth's 'blood and sweat'.
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United States2095 Posts
Time for another post to address questions. Last post before I put up a new guide here... =.=
kcdc -- <3 Thanks a lot for sticking up for me. o.o;
Blade -- I'm glad you enjoyed the guide. Not going to go into the catz / floop issue here lol.
Floop -- Um what can I say... You've spawned people asking you questions about your posts in my thread! Cant' say whether that's a good thing or a kinda sneaky thing. I think I'm landing dead in the middle :p
Roaming -- Ok I'll work on that next time! More reasoning behind stuff... Just can't make it too long and some of its fairly obvious (first units after a pool are lings + queen) for instance.
Calamity -- Thanks! Yeah I hadn't seen that many guides like this so I figured I'd make one :D
haLs -- Thanks bud. (What commentaries?)
NeoLearner -- I know what your saying. If you don't want to sacrifice an overlord at the chance you'll find the tech you have other options. You can constantly keep a ling at the front of the base. You can make 3 queens and a few spines just to be safe. You can make a lot of lings so if he pushes out you can either counter or flank him from behind when he attacks your main. There are plenty of options vs. an attack. Vs. flying units with three queens you should be able to see it early enough to start making 2 more queens and defending with your three and only attacking if your sure you won't lose a queen without killing a void! Pheonix's can make this tough.. If you have any other questions just PM me, I've gotta get working on this other thing and I can't when I'm posting semi-guides in responses XD! <3
Catz -- You so pro :D
3clipse -- Roaches have their benefits and their negatives. Their slow so there not great attacking units unless you get a certain ammount without him see'ing them. Then you can kind of push with those roaches and hopefully do some dmg that he wasn't expecting. Roaches are also super for defending early stuff (I still recomend lings queens and spines).
FTemplar -- You hurt me sir.
Darkn3ss-- Ok darkn3ss I've gotta be more specific and work on providing more of a reason behind why I do things while making it shorter! Got alot of really good feedback. Hopefully I can actually apply it :D!
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Nice read, keep it up
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Hi Sheth, thanks for the guide. I plan to test it out myself once the beta returns. My preference is to take bits and pieces from the wisdom of others and work out what I can use for myself rather than just copy verbatim. Even if it means reinventing the wheel as I tend to learn more effectively this way.
One question I have is about micro'ing the queens and zerglings for defensive purposes. I've tried kiting with the queen against zealots in the unit tester map and comparing the results to just a-moving and due to the fact that even on creep, the queen isn't fast enough to keep out of range, there seems to be little benefit. Micro'ing with zerglings really only involves proper positioning to ensure you get a surround. So I often try to hide them on either side of an expected attack path so they can 'swarm' in from both sides around those first few zealots. This has worked well for me. You also mentioned that it is ok to let the hatchery take some damage and I've found this to be invaluable as I can often get a few free hits on the backside of a zealot who is attacking the hatch before they turn around and try to fend off the zerglings. This back-and-forth can buy the time needed to get out a few more lings and solidify the defence.
So, just curious about your thoughts on micro'ing queens/zerglings against the first zealot rush.
Thanks.
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The formatting helped a lot on the OP, a lot easier to handle. Keep adding to it!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:05 CatZ.root wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:39 Floophead_III wrote:
There's a lot of good advice in this thread, though I'm curious as to why you go early lingspeed. I find speedlings to be incredibly inefficient and uneffective units in ZvP and gassing that early makes you significantly behind if you don't deal some sort of damage or force a reaction, even if you do pull off at 100 and drone heavily.
I do agree that 14 hatch is a super risky low gain build and should only be used in the same way that 1 rax FE (vs P) or 3 hatch before pool is used in BW - a slight eco cheese best saved for BOx matches.
My build of choice is 15 pool 16 hatch 15 drone 16 lord then zerglings or drones + queen depending on if you have to defend something. I like to double gas on 24 (right when my first queen pops out) unless I'm fending off some sort of rush in which case it will naturally be a little later.
Something I also do which I think every single zerg should do is throw down 1-2 crawlers as soon as your natural goes up (earlier if you suspect multiple reapers or 2 gate!). I also believe that vs protoss your best choice is 2 hatch hydra. I don't like muta openings since phoenix and archons are quite strong vs them so the only thing they're good vs is robo openings, and often robo openings can get an obs in your base before muta pop so toss can be ready.
A very important thing to do vs 1 base protoss:
-make at least 4-5 crawlers. Do NOT make zerglings. Save energy with queens and don't use spawn larvas! You want to have tranfusions ready to keep your crawlers alive as long as possible while you wait for hydras.
-Wall with an evo chamber at your natural! This is great vs meching Terrans too since it mucks up hellions, and it makes zealots much weaker, just like in BW.
-Make sure not to overdrone before hydras are out! Very rarely will protosses stay on 1 base and then not do a massive push. You don't really want to be more than 40 food drones+queens vs a 1 basing protoss is what I found.
For me the scariest thing is fighting a gate/forge expand (very difficult to break) into a 3/4 gate 2 robo blink stalker/coli army. When Protoss plays aggressive with blink stalkers using them for harass until he gets 4-5 colossi it's very difficult make enough stuff to break that giant protoss ball. How do you go about dealing with this?
Currently I've found 3 acceptable solutions, but how viable they are is rather difficult to address.
-The first is going hydra/baneling/ling and using banelings to force protoss to spread out making hydra much stronger or lose their meatshield leaving the colossi vulnerable to ling/hydra (zerglings do fairly well vs colossi if they can reach them.) This is one of the few times I'd make speedlings vs protoss.
-The second is going for infestors and using fungal growth to keep zealots away, stalkers from blinking, and coli from kiting, then using NP on the coli. The problem I forsee is that getting enough infestors while keeping a decent hydracount might prove impossible. It might be better open roach in this scenario and get a few extra queens for AA.
-The third is getting corruptors but honestly I find them ineffective and it's impossible to know what ratio of corruptor/ground you need. I just read your post, good sir, clearly you do not play at high diamond levels, or low diamond levels for that matter. If I had to guess by your display of knowledge in this threat, you're a gold player at best (i hope no offense taken). Sheth on the other hand is one of the best zergs in north america and perhaps the world currently, the fact that you Mr.Floophead The Third are trying to teach and tell a multiple high level tournament winner, Team USA 'Ace', 7 week ITL Championship holder what is right and wrong makes me a little bit sick, just a little bit... your "Guide", or reply or whatever you were trying to archieve is VERY VERY faulty IN MY OPINION, notice how I am not absolute when I talk even when I know for a fact that I am a far better player than you. your guide as a matter of fact is SO faulty I could've just replied in 1 sentence and made you look bad instead of wasting time writing all this : fungal growth does NOT stop stalkers from blinking
If I were Sheth I probably wouldn't answer, if you want to make your own threat and guide by all means do, but a friendly warning to you sir: you clearly lack the knowledge to do so and you will look very very bad.
Catz.. this post is a great example of what is wrong with the SC2 forum. Sheth has accomplished great things sure, that in no way shape or form makes him auto correct over everyone else all the time. In fact if he wants to make a thread discussing ZvP he sure as hell should be prepared for people to critique it and discuss the stuff.
Please STOP waving credentials around like that means everyone has to shut up and listen. Everyone is diamond. Everyone has an opinion of what is good/bad etc in the BETA of a game that isn't released yet. Sure some are wrong and sure some are right but if we got in a beta dick waving contest each time we'd all look like monkeys.
STOP PLZ
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[D] for discuss, [G] for guide, last I checked.
Sure you can discuss a guide, but posting a Guide on top of a guide is plain disrespectful for me.
Sure 'waving dick' arround isn't the best way to do things (I think we both know that), He was at fault and so was I, for that we both apologized!
Sheth and I were on vent at the time of his post, he didn't feel like answering, he was frustrated to see his post, so was I, and I replied without thinking carefully enough, much like you've done in MANY occasions.
if you want to further discuss dick waving, or anything else please send me a PM, manner lessons and flame wars are a greater example of what's wrong with the SC2 forum, in my opinion.
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On July 03 2010 08:57 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:05 CatZ.root wrote:On July 02 2010 01:39 Floophead_III wrote:
There's a lot of good advice in this thread, though I'm curious as to why you go early lingspeed. I find speedlings to be incredibly inefficient and uneffective units in ZvP and gassing that early makes you significantly behind if you don't deal some sort of damage or force a reaction, even if you do pull off at 100 and drone heavily.
I do agree that 14 hatch is a super risky low gain build and should only be used in the same way that 1 rax FE (vs P) or 3 hatch before pool is used in BW - a slight eco cheese best saved for BOx matches.
My build of choice is 15 pool 16 hatch 15 drone 16 lord then zerglings or drones + queen depending on if you have to defend something. I like to double gas on 24 (right when my first queen pops out) unless I'm fending off some sort of rush in which case it will naturally be a little later.
Something I also do which I think every single zerg should do is throw down 1-2 crawlers as soon as your natural goes up (earlier if you suspect multiple reapers or 2 gate!). I also believe that vs protoss your best choice is 2 hatch hydra. I don't like muta openings since phoenix and archons are quite strong vs them so the only thing they're good vs is robo openings, and often robo openings can get an obs in your base before muta pop so toss can be ready.
A very important thing to do vs 1 base protoss:
-make at least 4-5 crawlers. Do NOT make zerglings. Save energy with queens and don't use spawn larvas! You want to have tranfusions ready to keep your crawlers alive as long as possible while you wait for hydras.
-Wall with an evo chamber at your natural! This is great vs meching Terrans too since it mucks up hellions, and it makes zealots much weaker, just like in BW.
-Make sure not to overdrone before hydras are out! Very rarely will protosses stay on 1 base and then not do a massive push. You don't really want to be more than 40 food drones+queens vs a 1 basing protoss is what I found.
For me the scariest thing is fighting a gate/forge expand (very difficult to break) into a 3/4 gate 2 robo blink stalker/coli army. When Protoss plays aggressive with blink stalkers using them for harass until he gets 4-5 colossi it's very difficult make enough stuff to break that giant protoss ball. How do you go about dealing with this?
Currently I've found 3 acceptable solutions, but how viable they are is rather difficult to address.
-The first is going hydra/baneling/ling and using banelings to force protoss to spread out making hydra much stronger or lose their meatshield leaving the colossi vulnerable to ling/hydra (zerglings do fairly well vs colossi if they can reach them.) This is one of the few times I'd make speedlings vs protoss.
-The second is going for infestors and using fungal growth to keep zealots away, stalkers from blinking, and coli from kiting, then using NP on the coli. The problem I forsee is that getting enough infestors while keeping a decent hydracount might prove impossible. It might be better open roach in this scenario and get a few extra queens for AA.
-The third is getting corruptors but honestly I find them ineffective and it's impossible to know what ratio of corruptor/ground you need. I just read your post, good sir, clearly you do not play at high diamond levels, or low diamond levels for that matter. If I had to guess by your display of knowledge in this threat, you're a gold player at best (i hope no offense taken). Sheth on the other hand is one of the best zergs in north america and perhaps the world currently, the fact that you Mr.Floophead The Third are trying to teach and tell a multiple high level tournament winner, Team USA 'Ace', 7 week ITL Championship holder what is right and wrong makes me a little bit sick, just a little bit... your "Guide", or reply or whatever you were trying to archieve is VERY VERY faulty IN MY OPINION, notice how I am not absolute when I talk even when I know for a fact that I am a far better player than you. your guide as a matter of fact is SO faulty I could've just replied in 1 sentence and made you look bad instead of wasting time writing all this : fungal growth does NOT stop stalkers from blinking
If I were Sheth I probably wouldn't answer, if you want to make your own threat and guide by all means do, but a friendly warning to you sir: you clearly lack the knowledge to do so and you will look very very bad. Catz.. this post is a great example of what is wrong with the SC2 forum. Sheth has accomplished great things sure, that in no way shape or form makes him auto correct over everyone else all the time. In fact if he wants to make a thread discussing ZvP he sure as hell should be prepared for people to critique it and discuss the stuff. Please STOP waving credentials around like that means everyone has to shut up and listen. Everyone is diamond. Everyone has an opinion of what is good/bad etc in the BETA of a game that isn't released yet. Sure some are wrong and sure some are right but if we got in a beta dick waving contest each time we'd all look like monkeys. STOP PLZ
With all due respect - if this is Sheth's thread, I think that people should be asking him questions about his builds - not posting theirs.
There's so much misinformation out there, it's tough enough for a player who's just starting out to find a good thread without it being poisoned by people's "Never get lings or use spawn larvae and always wall off with Evo chambers" builds.
If someone is posting their ideas (Especially in another person's thread), it's much more productive to be blunt than have Bronze and Silver players doing some wonky BO because they don't know any better.
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EPT
