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I've been doing 2 gate proxy rushes for about 30 games the last 2 days on the maps
blistering (gates behind enemy natural mins)
steppes (tried both getting gates below and above choke)
scrap station (gates in front of enemy rocks)
desert oasis (duh)
BO is like this:
-) 7th probe goes proxy
-) build 10 probes
-) build pylon proxy
-) build 2 gates
-) get 11th and 12th drone
-) build 2nd pylons still proxy -> send drone home mining
-) get chrono'ed lots
BO varies a bit from map to map (DO -> 6th probe goes proxy)
T can defend with good wallin and repair
Z can defend with crawler besides hatch and camping to roaches
As P, i only held this (once) or failed with it (once) if the rushed P gets 2 gates himself and camps to forge (which does take REALLY long since you can't save that much mins).
A friend told me P should be able to hold this with gate -> forge. But it seems i can't compete with his dual gate lots when i only build lots from one gate.
Has anyone got a replay of a PvP defend that involves a gate -> forge build for the defender where the defender wins against this push?
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Personally, if I detect a 2 gate as Protoss, I will finish my wall-off with a cybernetic core, hold on for dear life at my choke point so his superior numbers of Zealots do not overwhelm me until I get a Stalker. Once you have Zealots/Stalkers you should be in great shape.
Unfortunately I do not have a replay of 2gate as Protoss, only as Zerg.
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On June 08 2010 06:08 Makh wrote:
Personally, if I detect a 2 gate as Protoss, I will finish my wall-off with a cybernetic core, hold on for dear life at my choke point so his superior numbers of Zealots do not overwhelm me until I get a Stalker.
how can you hold your choke? even the small chokes let 4 lots hack away on your buildings ... wouldn't they raze one of the block buildings before the stalker could come? even then, by the time the stalker comes, the agressor has about 5 lots which he can rotate to take quite some shots from the stalker.
still looking for a replay not involving getting 2 gates as defense. :/
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Theoretically, you have the capacity to train the same number of units they do. If they 2gate proxy, you 2 gate defense.
The alternative is to place a cyber core at your choke so only 1 opposing zealot fights at a time (and 2 of yours) and get a stalker out ASAP. If you can successfully have wall-off Zealots a 1 Stalker you should have won the game.
Alternatively, go 2 gate yourself, build Zealots, and when they attack use probes to encircle your opponent and wipe them.
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On June 08 2010 06:49 Makh wrote:
The alternative is to place a cyber core at your choke so only 1 opposing zealot fights at a time (and 2 of yours) and get a stalker out ASAP.
how do i place buildings so 2 of my lots can hit 1 of his? never seen this.
and if i misunderstood you: having zealots 1on1 fightng depletes the lots of the defender faster than the of the attacker?
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there is really no reason not to go two gate to stop a proxy 2 gate, then you're on equal grounds and if you ever push him back (he has no choke) then it's only a matter of killing his two pylons to completely shut down his production. just turtle at your choke lettings four zealots fight at a time until you can get your cybernetics up and get some stalkers/sentries. if you don't have enough zealots then fall back and let 1 zealot fight at a time until shields regen, and more zealots pop out. make sure you make more pylons to power your gates incase the one walling falls
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What's the advantage of going gate/forge over 2x gate though? Assuming gate/forge does work (I'm sure it does if you get the forge out fast enough), all you've done is stopped the rush... he still has you contained. While if you held on w/ your own 2-3 gate not only do you push out but you easily power down all his production buildings and then can go in for the kill.
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I don't know about this specific proxy 2 gate build, but I've found it pretty easier to defend by adding gateways and chronoboosting zealots. (Stop mining gas, and cancel any assimilators that are building, they're a waste of resources.)
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If it's inside your base. Build a forge and surround the proxy with 2 cannons immediately.
If it's outside your base. You can wall off with a zealot and get some stalkers. Snipe his probe and kite his zealots.
10 Forge, 12 Gate will give you better tech options and will keep you secure. If he's got you contained, you need to get a scout out asap. If he's just building zealots, get a stargate and push some void rays into his base. If he's starting to tech in his base or expanding, build up as large of an army as possible and try to bust his proxy since he's used up a lot of his money on tech/econ over army.
Just stay calm, and remember that your first priority is to kill the probe then the pylon early. If he's got multiple pylons, just bust the gates. As long as you can make sure he doesn't expand you will be ahead of him economically because he wasted so much getting that probe out early and getting those two gates out as fast as he did over focusing on his econ.
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HI All,
I used to have to same problem as well against 2 gate (yea name unfamiliar sicne I just joined today lol) but anyway here is what I do. I build a gateway, then a cyber core after zealot, and then I chrono boost out sentries. I get 2 of them. THen Ill either get stalkers or go for phoenixes.
How it works is i have a choke (not the zealot tight type but the stalker type one) and I use forcefield on the ramp. If i get 2 sentries, ill use 2 forcefields and kill of the zealots inside it. Ill also probably put down another gateway and chrono boost out stalkers. Because he did this proxy 2 gate thing, hes gonna be pretty behind in tech, so normally i transition into stargate and chrono phoenix. This way,I can lift off any stalkers he has as well as kill off his probes. If he buildscannons, for every 2 canons he builds (300 minerals) I expand once (400 minerals). Its basically gg by this time.
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On June 08 2010 09:48 BettyNyah wrote:
If it's inside your base. Build a forge and surround the proxy with 2 cannons immediately.
have a replay ready?
also, when exactly should i build the cannons? because i imagine that if i build them too early, he can just cancel the gates and all he has wasted is like 150 mins, right?
On June 08 2010 14:13 Maher wrote:
HI All,
I used to have to same problem as well against 2 gate (yea name unfamiliar sicne I just joined today lol) but anyway here is what I do. I build a gateway, then a cyber core after zealot, and then I chrono boost out sentries.
do you have a replay of how you can hold off his first 3-4 zealots with your 1-2 (assumint you build your cycore after your first gate)?
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On June 08 2010 09:48 BettyNyah wrote:
If it's inside your base. Build a forge and surround the proxy with 2 cannons immediately.
If it's outside your base. You can wall off with a zealot and get some stalkers. Snipe his probe and kite his zealots.
10 Forge, 12 Gate will give you better tech options and will keep you secure. If he's got you contained, you need to get a scout out asap. If he's just building zealots, get a stargate and push some void rays into his base. If he's starting to tech in his base or expanding, build up as large of an army as possible and try to bust his proxy since he's used up a lot of his money on tech/econ over army.
Just stay calm, and remember that your first priority is to kill the probe then the pylon early. If he's got multiple pylons, just bust the gates. As long as you can make sure he doesn't expand you will be ahead of him economically because he wasted so much getting that probe out early and getting those two gates out as fast as he did over focusing on his econ.
first off listen to 0 of this. If you follow this guys logic just "wall off and tech straight to carriers, trust me it should work"
You wont have the resources to go gate forge zealots+cannons. he can just power down your cannons anyways with 3-4 zealots esp with no support. by the time u even get one air unit out u will have lost your wall and any/all probes.
I would say your best bet is to just cancel anything you have going and get your chrono boosted 2 gate going. With proper micro the best case scenario for him is to get a few probes, which still leaves him with the pylon+gates in the open field and a much slower follow up= gg for him.
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My problem with fighting off this rush usually stems from one of the following:
a) His 2nd gate was up faster, allowing him to reinforce and overwhelm. My gate is usually quite delayed because I don't normally pylon scout, so I have a gas building (or finished) by the time it's detected.
b) I make probes : he spams Z.
c) I try to tech instead of 2-gate response : he spams Z
Buildings are too fragile and your choke will not be safe long enough for Forge + Cannons or Sentry. You will be dead long before those options are even close to viable. If he goes proxy 2gate, you HAVE to cancel all else and add a 2nd Gate of your own, and probably pull probes for his initial assault.
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On June 08 2010 14:58 yarkO wrote:
My problem with fighting off this rush usually stems from one of the following:
a) His 2nd gate was up faster, allowing him to reinforce and overwhelm. My gate is usually quite delayed because I don't normally pylon scout, so I have a gas building (or finished) by the time it's detected.
b) I make probes : he spams Z.
c) I try to tech instead of 2-gate response : he spams Z
at least i can help you with b) and c)
b) you have to admit the fact that he can produce boosted lots out of 2 gates with 12 probes on mins. he even has the room to build a cycore/forge/assimilator after his 7th lot (at least, i do). just step down and don't make more than 12-14 probes and don't put them in gas early.
c) if you try to tech, tech slow. get 2 gate first (like i said in my OP) and get like 14 probes with a late assimilator then you should be allright.
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ahh i beat a proxy 2 gate recently.. all u need is 2 zealots to hold the tiny opening at ur wall and get stalkers out asap with 1 sentry to use FF if hes streaming zealots to ur base.. once you have 3-4 stalkers you can outmicro them easily.
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1 Gate -> Forge to stop 2 gate proxies
Make Z's from your 1 gate while teching to Stalkers.
Run by proxies and harass probe line if you can. Otherwise, pressure his proxies after your cannon is up so that he's forced to make more Zealots.
I seriously don't advise going 2 gate to stop a 2 gate proxy for two reasons:
1) Your gateways are going to be behind (both of them if he does the standard 10 pylon 10 gate 10 gate).
2) He's been saving his Chronoboosts.
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On those 2p maps an opponent's 9pylon scout should be able to scout your base right before needing to chrono his 13th probe if he was going 9pylon/10 chrono/12gate. At the point cut probes at 12 to build a 2nd gate (12/12), continue probe production to 14, and save all future chrono for zealots. Even if the defender lose 2-4 probes to their first zealot, since they've been mining with 3 extra probes the whole time, defender should be ahead in minerals.
p.s. you really don't need a forge unless they're doing like 1 gate in their base + 2 proxied gates (hi rotterdam)
p.p.s. this is also assuming you have the micro to right click injured probes to far mineral patches when enemy zealots are in your mineral line. if you don't, maybe you should consider 10 gate as your default pvp opening since it's both viable and is less disadvantaged vs proxy gates.
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On June 08 2010 06:03 jacen wrote:
Has anyone got a replay of a PvP defend that involves a gate -> forge build for the defender where the defender wins against this push?
I think i have only one replay where the defender hold off with 1 gate + forge , i almost always used 2+1 gate rush successfully. Then he won but only beacuse i played in a stupid way. If he cannon heavily, you can stop building zeal and just fast expand. Watch for VR and the game is secured.
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On June 08 2010 14:56 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 09:48 BettyNyah wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If it's inside your base. Build a forge and surround the proxy with 2 cannons immediately.
If it's outside your base. You can wall off with a zealot and get some stalkers. Snipe his probe and kite his zealots.
10 Forge, 12 Gate will give you better tech options and will keep you secure. If he's got you contained, you need to get a scout out asap. If he's just building zealots, get a stargate and push some void rays into his base. If he's starting to tech in his base or expanding, build up as large of an army as possible and try to bust his proxy since he's used up a lot of his money on tech/econ over army.
Just stay calm, and remember that your first priority is to kill the probe then the pylon early. If he's got multiple pylons, just bust the gates. As long as you can make sure he doesn't expand you will be ahead of him economically because he wasted so much getting that probe out early and getting those two gates out as fast as he did over focusing on his econ. first off listen to 0 of this. If you follow this guys logic just "wall off and tech straight to carriers, trust me it should work" You wont have the resources to go gate forge zealots+cannons. he can just power down your cannons anyways with 3-4 zealots esp with no support. by the time u even get one air unit out u will have lost your wall and any/all probes.
orly? When did I say tech straight to carriers? I said send some void rays directly into his base. Most 2 gates work purely off zealots in the early stage. Even then, you should be able to defend your ramp quite easily with a cannon and some units to block any other units from coming in. Never should you just straight tech to something. A scout can mean a variety of different units; if he's only got zealots, a stalker is a perfect scout as nothing he has will be able to chase down that stalker, if you get the stargate out from a 2gate/star build, you can boost out a phoenix to see everything that is going on in his base and the entire map.
Also, gate/forging is basically the same spending build wise. You are just sacrificing 2-3 zealots for 1-2 cannons.
1 pylon = 100 min
2 gateways= 300 min
2 zealots= 200 min
Total min spent initially=600
compared to gateway/forge
1 pylon=100 min
gateway/forge= 300 min
1 cannon= 150
1 zealot=100
Total min spent initially= 650
So you're saying that you couldn't possibly be 50 minerals ahead of a person who has pulled a probe off the line at 7 or 8 food? If you scouted your area properly, you should know where the proxy is and should build your pylon down his throat. The first two zealots will come out before the first cannon finishes, so yes you will have to defend it with anything you have at the moment which will probably be 1 zealot and some probes thrown in, but once your cannon finishes, it's GG for his proxy, there is nothing he can do to protect it.
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EPT
