EPTSeeking for help on P in-base proxy - Page 2
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afirlortwo
United States161 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I've lost a game where I was barely off and left a gateway with like 50 life as the zealot came out, and yet, I still haven't learned the scv to gateway count. Pretty annoying. Also even before 1 bunker marine, what about cutting gas, in the SS you have some spare gas? You can help the bunker simcity with a 2rax if you gas probably. Then the 1marinebunker v 3zealot isn't as scary. Instead of concussive marauder, I would definitely opt for a reaper vs 2 gate. No stalkers are possible and you can threaten a game ending counter and you can kite infinite. Marauder vs Zealot isn't good unless I'm missing something. Also! Don't orbital yet. 2nd Rax then orbital imo. | ||
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madjerry
China60 Posts
On May 27 2010 17:45 afirlortwo wrote: trying to kill the probe should be very difficult; the probe can ghostwalk out of any sort of surround you maybe able to pull. Its hard to tell in this case, but would you have been able to build a bunker next to the gateways and stick a rine in it w/ a few repairing scvs and one by your CC? If the bunker does not cover my base, I won't have any scv mining because of zealot. So I could only build it around my base. | ||
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
On May 28 2010 00:55 Inkarnate wrote: On a serious note, has anyone tried cancelling your rax, putting down an ebay and gas up for a fast planetary fortress? Obviously would put you behind in economy for a little while but should allow you to keep mining with all your scvs. The correct counter to P proxy depends a lot on whether or not does in base or in your natural, and what time he does it. Fast PF has stopped a proxy once or twice for me, but it was a slightly later than normal proxy (1:45 as opposed to 1:00). I'm not sure if it should be the standard defense though, I've had good success with fast single Marauder. (Do the fast proxy style (except you don't proxy) reaper build, make a Marauder instead of a reaper). | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Lets assume all of the SCVs arrive 5 seconds late to the party, so 82 seconds to kill a Gateway. Workers attack every 1.5 seconds, therefore, you need X SCVs to do 225 attacks, in 82 seconds. One SCV can do 54 attacks in 82 seconds (82 / 1.5), and you need just over 4 (4.1667) SCVs to do 225 attacks in that time (225 / 54). So, you need at least FIVE SCVs to kill the Gateway before the Zealot pops out, AND assuming all 5 SCVs arrive 5 seconds after the Gateway starts getting built. Plus you need one SCV to keep the Probe busy, so it isn't attacking the SCVs that are going after the Gateway. Ta-da. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
Place the bunker within range of their gateways but between them and your CC. Continuously produce marines, and scv's when you have the minerals. Don't forget depots. Place them in range of your bunker. When you get enough for a 2nd bunker, build one at your mineral line assuming the first one doesn't cover that area. Obviously, fix the bunkers as they get attacked. If he ignores your bunker, pull the marines out and have them shoot the zealots. The zealots will have a choice between ignoring the marines or trying to chase. Kite the zealots and return the marines to the bunker. (repeat as needed) If he doesn't give up on it, try to build a second rax, or if you have enough marines then build a tech lab and send a reaper to his base. Or you could send an scv out and proxy rax him that might be even better since he won't know it's coming. Also after you get like 4 or 5 marines you can try sniping the probe. You can also send some guys (marines or scv's) out to kill the pylon, if you can afford it. Do not use SCV's to kill the gateway. He'll either cancel it or just let you kill it. You'll lose way more than 150 minerals in mining time. Assuming you hold it off you'll kill 2 gateways, X zealots, and a pylon. Your bunkers can be salvaged after the fact so don't be squeamish about using them. You probably should not lose any marines, but you might lose some scv's or mining time. I wouldn't bother with marauders at all. You'd be better off with a reaper. Well that's not true, if he manages to get cannons up you'll want marauders. But you should be able to hold off the push before he gets a forge+cannons. | ||
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TerranUp16
United States88 Posts
Ofc, I am 9 'raxing w/9 Refinery and 11 Depot against 'toss most of the time anyway since the fast Reapers are nice for screwing-over cheese like this and harassing 'toss while I get my Ghostmech out. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On May 27 2010 12:51 madjerry wrote: sorry guys, but honestly I did not find the posts above very helpful to my particular situation as shown in the screenshot. Scout: Scouting is irrelevant to this situation. I knew what he was doing from the moment I saw him sneaking the probe in. Kill probe: I was not able to kill the probe (note this is diamond level, not brownze. it's just impossible kill that probe even with a marine). Bunker with tanks? The game ended before 7:00. I would like to see my questions answered upfront. Please understand that I am not trying to be mean when I take out the Ego Ice Pick. 1. All someone has to do to get into diamond league is win 5 matches against 5 random people. 2. Scouting is never EVER irrelevant. If you had scouted your base earlier, or kept an eye on your radar and caught the probe early, you could have prevented a cheese win. 3. Even in diamond league, the 11 plus SCV's on your line should be able to surround and kill a probe. 4. If you build a bunker when you see his pylon/gateway coming down, you can put a single marine inside of it and repair it with an scv. Then when the second marine comes out, you have two marines in a bunker and his zealots have to move away. At this point you can either. A. Leave your marines in the bunker and kill his proxy. He shouldn't have soo many zealots at this point that he can crush your base. If he does, macro better. B. Take your marines out and persue the zealots. Im not sure why you would do this unless you really hate having your mining interrupted. You could also send an SCV to his base with a few marines and build a bunker at his mineral line or build one ad the edge of his base and bunker hop. Either the toss send a probe into your base really early to get this proxy up, which means he has very little money, in which case you wont have many marines to stop it, but the bunker should help. Or he pulled this off a bit later, which means he can build more zealots, but you should have more that enough marines to kill his probe and shut his proxy down. Build times (provided by SC2 Armory) Pylon 25 seconds and 100m into Gateway x2 65 seconds and 300m into Zealot x2 33 seconds(22 with boost) and 200m Thats 112 seconds minimum before you see your first zealots not to mention at least 87 seconds where the pylon is naked and vulnerable to attack. It takes you 60 seconds and 150m to make a rax which you should have already been building. Simultaneously you can build a Bunker in 30 secs with 100m and a Marine in 25 secs and put it in the bunker before the gateway has even finished if you catch them immediately and didnt have a rax yet, or if you started making a rax after they finished the pylon, you can still get your rine into the bunker before the zealots finish. at which point you kill the zeals if they stay and heal the bunker, and kill the pyon if the zeals run away. Either way, being aware of a proxy inside of your base is probably the only thing you need to worry about as a terran. So check that grass if you want to stay diamond, or you can go back to the "brownze league". | ||
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Diokhan
Finland33 Posts
Cannon rushes are so common that I always "sacrafice" 1 worker by having it follow the probe the moment it enters the base. As you'll be walling your ramp when that happens you'll know whenever it enters. So to sum up: -start by walling the ramp. -send a worker after the probe when it enters your base so you know instantly if something is built. Pay attention though because some of the cheesiest protosses send one of their starting probes into your base to make them harder to spot. -if that probe sets up a pylon you pull few (about 3-4 seems to be fine imo) probes from your mineral line to wreck it while getting your marines out. Always gun at the pylons, if he gets 2 pylons up and starts building a cannon/gate around the time you finish the first pylon don't make the mistake of switching target from the second pylon to that gate or cannon. -You stop the probe production for marines until the base is clean -Profit! most losses against cannon and proxy gate rushes are because of bad scouting and/or panicing. I have won surprisingly many games simply by hiding my scouting probe into the terran base without even planning to cheese them at first. Basically If the probe lives unscouted in the corner of the base until I get warpgates up its only fair to put a pylon up and warp some army in to steal the win, the lazy terran deserves it. =P | ||
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srrybunny
United States10 Posts
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madjerry
China60 Posts
On May 28 2010 00:55 Inkarnate wrote: On a serious note, has anyone tried cancelling your rax, putting down an ebay and gas up for a fast planetary fortress? Obviously would put you behind in economy for a little while but should allow you to keep mining with all your scvs. Cannon range=7. PF range=6. So I guess PF won't do against cannons, plus once done, a PF cannot move itself. | ||
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madjerry
China60 Posts
On May 28 2010 03:29 Bibdy wrote: A Gateway has 500/500 and 1 armour. That means 225 attacks from workers to kill it. It takes 65 seconds to build the Gateway, and another 22 seconds for the Zealot to pop up with a Chrono Boost (and a second immediately after the first - this is worst-case scenario). Lets assume all of the SCVs arrive 5 seconds late to the party, so 82 seconds to kill a Gateway. Workers attack every 1.5 seconds, therefore, you need X SCVs to do 225 attacks, in 82 seconds. One SCV can do 54 attacks in 82 seconds (82 / 1.5), and you need just over 4 (4.1667) SCVs to do 225 attacks in that time (225 / 54). So, you need at least FIVE SCVs to kill the Gateway before the Zealot pops out, AND assuming all 5 SCVs arrive 5 seconds after the Gateway starts getting built. Plus you need one SCV to keep the Probe busy, so it isn't attacking the SCVs that are going after the Gateway. Ta-da. This is a very convincing calculation. Very helpful! What I actually wanted are ideas like this one, which are based on facts and real experiences. Thank you. | ||
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madjerry
China60 Posts
On May 28 2010 03:49 DuneBug wrote: look the best way to handle this is just to let the gateways finish and build a bunker/marine as soon as your barracks finishes. Place the bunker within range of their gateways but between them and your CC. Continuously produce marines, and scv's when you have the minerals. Don't forget depots. Place them in range of your bunker. When you get enough for a 2nd bunker, build one at your mineral line assuming the first one doesn't cover that area. Obviously, fix the bunkers as they get attacked. If he ignores your bunker, pull the marines out and have them shoot the zealots. The zealots will have a choice between ignoring the marines or trying to chase. Kite the zealots and return the marines to the bunker. (repeat as needed) If he doesn't give up on it, try to build a second rax, or if you have enough marines then build a tech lab and send a reaper to his base. Or you could send an scv out and proxy rax him that might be even better since he won't know it's coming. Also after you get like 4 or 5 marines you can try sniping the probe. You can also send some guys (marines or scv's) out to kill the pylon, if you can afford it. Do not use SCV's to kill the gateway. He'll either cancel it or just let you kill it. You'll lose way more than 150 minerals in mining time. Assuming you hold it off you'll kill 2 gateways, X zealots, and a pylon. Your bunkers can be salvaged after the fact so don't be squeamish about using them. You probably should not lose any marines, but you might lose some scv's or mining time. I wouldn't bother with marauders at all. You'd be better off with a reaper. Well that's not true, if he manages to get cannons up you'll want marauders. But you should be able to hold off the push before he gets a forge+cannons. I wonder did you check out the screenshots? That's exactly what I opted to do but it ended up with a fail. Sorry, ignoring it won't help. When you have 4 marines, he will have 7 zealots and a forge being built. Soon enough you will see cannons popping up. If you tries to bunker near his gate, that seems an idea but before you destroy his two gates, his zealots will have killed all your scvs. Yes you can micro your marines and scvs can dodge zealots, but it just won't work the way you imagined. You will gradually lose all your economy and scvs/marines. All he lost are some cheap and fast-made zealots. | ||
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madjerry
China60 Posts
On May 28 2010 05:09 TerranUp16 wrote: Personally, I generally see the Probe come in and I watch its blip on the mini-map closely while it's scouting- if it does any funny business for even half a second I'll pull an SCV to check for a Pylon. Usually I can find the Pylon before it's finished and pull SCVs to kill that and force the 'toss to start Pylon spamming which buys me some valuable time to get a 'rax, Refinery, and Tech Lab up. Reapers can snipe the Probe easily, deal with any Zealots that pop out, and then make the 'toss pay the second you have the proxy dealt with. Ofc, I am 9 'raxing w/9 Refinery and 11 Depot against 'toss most of the time anyway since the fast Reapers are nice for screwing-over cheese like this and harassing 'toss while I get my Ghostmech out. Generally, killing pylons are not advised as he can just cancel and make two more at a time. But as you mentioned, it might be able to delay his zealots and buy me a little more time for the reapers. I haven't tried that yet. I think the time bought is very limited (equals to the time between his first and second pylon, I think) while I still have to pull 4-5 scvs and spare 3 for gas, which will make my minerals on a very low level. I don't know if that will work. | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
Epic suggestion. Probably won't work on any two player maps or cross positions, but baller points for trying. It might be a bit more difficult to pull off in sc2, due to the fact that if he somehow affords warpgate tech, he can still defend himself reasonably well. | ||
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Diaspora
United States140 Posts
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TerranUp16
United States88 Posts
But yeah, I find it pretty win-win since your minerals are low and Reaper delayed, but his counter tends to be delayed as well. You stand a chance of killing the Probe quickly, forcing the 'toss to invest in Pylon spam (not a big investment and about as long-term as any Bunkers you put up to counter this, but it will hurt any kind of standard play the 'toss wants to progress back at his main), and you can also immediately get your SCVs on any Gateways he spawns after one of the Pylons gets completed (and again, once you see that Pylon complete you know what that Probe is going to do so you can often trap the Probe against the Gateway it just started warping in to kill it then focus the Gateway down and hit him with Reapers). | ||
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