Hi guys, I'm mid-high plat (now diamond) Terran. I'm a decent player in normal games but don't laugh at me - I'm extremely vulnerable against any form of in-base proxy by toss. Let's say I lose 90% of the time.
I just lost a game on blistering sands where he made a pylon down the high ground near my back door and made two in-base proxy gates. I was trying to wall-in before seeing this. I managed to get 2 bunkers to protect the mineral line and then carelessly lost a rax due to being so pissed off, again - but it won't affect the result that much, because the game soon ended.
And it went like this: when I had one marine, he managed to get a zeal out. when I had two marines, he had 3 when I had tree marines, he had 5 Then I saw his cannon and I typed out.
Question: Should I try to kill off the gates with 7-8 scvs? - my guess is no way. he made two gates so he will manage to get zealots out anyway and I will lose all my economy. Should I not make bunkers? - I suppose at least I should make one? otherwise how am I supposed to handle this 1v1, 2v3, 3v5 situation? How do I stop his cannon?
I encountered rush like this at least 3 or 4 times a day, on my level. So I'm guessing it really works on some people, like me. They are doing this so often because they see this being viable and beneficial. What are your ideas? Please kindly offer your suggestion. Many thanks!
Screenshots:
1:37 - first gate. I was doing the 10 depot 11 rax wall-in
1:54 - second gate
3:13 - 1 on 1 situation. my marine was delayed like 5 seconds as I decided to put a bunker first.
3:40 - 2 on 3 situation. I simply gave up my wall as it is impossible to defend
4:08 - 3 on 5 situation. and his forge is being built
Just happened to me about 2 minutes ago. It's incredibly frustrating. I scouted his base after making my first pylon and noticed he had nothing, so I quickly grabbed a probe and checked my base and found two pylons and a gateway. I sent over around 5-7 probes to try to surround the zealot and kill him but he just kept making more zlots and I couldn't keep up with it. Best way I can say to avoid it is to just try to build at your front faster so you can see if a probe gets through, and try to check your base as often as possible.
What I like to do to counter (or prevent it from happening in the first place) P proxy is to proxy them as T. See the replay below, its basically a bunker-contain with tanks, I was quite careless actually losing far to many tanks doing the push, however it successfully contained the turtling P and when his resources got stretched to far I eventually over-took him.
If he tried to proxy probe my main I would have had a Marauder with concussive out and that would have dealt with it. The strategy in my replay I started using specifically to stop those pesky P proxies. My game is from high Platinum by the way.
Edit: If you want a direct answer then here it is. Do 10 depot 11 rax 12 gas, and pump out a marauder ASAP with concussive. Also versus P if you fear proxies or simply have problems with them then you must be sure to close off the entrance to your base as soon as possible, even cutting SCVs to do so is better than leaving it open and getting proxied. The Marauder will come out about 30 seconds later than your first Marine, however if you act fast and kill the probe with Concussive so it cannot be microed away then you will be set to stopping the proxy.
Yes you pull scvs and kill his gateways. If it happens to you alot figure out exactly how many scvs you need to kill his gateway before the first zealot pops out. Since terran simcity doesn't work in sc2 you have to pull scvs.
SC1 example. It's the same thing except the gateways aren't in your mineral line
edit: Oh ya there are reapers. 1 marine -> tech lab -> reapers as a followup
On May 27 2010 12:59 SichuanPanda wrote: If he tried to proxy probe my main I would have had a Marauder with concussive out and that would have dealt with it. The strategy in my replay I started using specifically to stop those pesky P proxies. My game is from high Platinum by the way.
Edit: If you want a direct answer then here it is. Do 10 depot 11 rax 12 gas, and pump out a marauder ASAP with concussive. Also versus P if you fear proxies or simply have problems with them then you must be sure to close off the entrance to your base as soon as possible, even cutting SCVs to do so is better than leaving it open and getting proxied. The Marauder will come out about 30 seconds later than your first Marine, however if you act fast and kill the probe with Concussive so it cannot be microed away then you will be set to stopping the proxy.
sounds like an idea. but i seems that P will simply destroy the tech lab to deny any research. If I were the rushing toss, I would surely choose to do that. What are your thoughts on that? appreciate your input.
On May 27 2010 13:16 kNyTTyM wrote: Yes you pull scvs and kill his gateways. If it happens to you alot figure out exactly how many scvs you need to kill his gateway before the first zealot pops out. Since terran simcity doesn't work in sc2 you have to pull scvs.
edit: Oh ya there are reapers. 1 marine -> tech lab -> reapers as a followup
He made two gates @ 1:37 and 1:54. Which one do I kill? I had about 10 scvs by the time I saw him building the first gate. Do I pull 8 leaving 2 mining and building rax? that way I could manage killing one of the gates and lose 90% of my economy and he still has one gate operational.
It comes in the end like this. He will constantly make chrono-boosted zealots and accumulate them till totally outnumbering my marines while I had not enough money for constant troops and any further upgrades. I will have no bunker, so it's easy to lose marines within a blink of eye, due to mistakes in micro or simply lag issue.
On May 27 2010 13:16 kNyTTyM wrote: Yes you pull scvs and kill his gateways. If it happens to you alot figure out exactly how many scvs you need to kill his gateway before the first zealot pops out. Since terran simcity doesn't work in sc2 you have to pull scvs.
edit: Oh ya there are reapers. 1 marine -> tech lab -> reapers as a followup
He made two gates @ 1:37 and 1:54. Which one do I kill? I had about 10 scvs by the time I saw him building the first gate. Do I pull 8 leaving 2 mining and building rax? that way I could manage killing one of the gates and lose 90% of my economy and he still has one gate operational.
It comes in the end like this. He will constantly make chrono-boosted zealots and accumulate them till totally outnumbering my marines while I had not enough money for constant troops and any further upgrades. I will have no bunker, so it's easy to lose marines within a blink of eye, due to mistakes in micro or simply lag issue.
You kill the first one made. are you sure it takes 8 scvs to kill a gateway? Also you have mule so your economy isn't too bad. Lemme go try it out scv vs gateway and I'll get back to you.
edit: with just some very basic testing if your scvs starting attacking his gateway right as it starts 4 kills gate before zealot comes out. 5 kills right as gateway finishes. 6 kills gate before it finishes
so another test shows an scv does about 65 damage in the period it takes for a zealot to chrono out. 4 scvs do about 280. Gauge how much hp the gateway will have when it completes and attach scvs accordingly.
last edit: 4 on first gateway to kill it before chrono zealot comes out. 5 if you see it late. 1-3 on second gateway then when first gateway is killed move all scvs to attacking second gateway. If your 1 marine and 1 zealot comes out it true, you will have a marine before his first zealot since first gate is dead. Hinder the zealot with marine and kill gate with scvs. You are now in a huge winning position. Yipee!
Question: Should I try to kill off the gates with 7-8 scvs? - my guess is no way. he made two gates so he will manage to get zealots out anyway and I will lose all my economy. Should I not make bunkers? - I suppose at least I should make one? otherwise how am I supposed to handle this 1v1, 2v3, 3v5 situation? How do I stop his cannon?
Don't pull all your scv's just 2-3 to help you kill the probe, (3:13 pic looks like prime time for the kill)
One bunker should be good and judging by your last picture you need to work on your sim-city to make the zealots less effective.
If the probe is toast then there are no cannons, after that just take out his pylons(at least force him to defend them)/tech marauders.
On May 27 2010 13:16 kNyTTyM wrote: Yes you pull scvs and kill his gateways. If it happens to you alot figure out exactly how many scvs you need to kill his gateway before the first zealot pops out. Since terran simcity doesn't work in sc2 you have to pull scvs.
edit: Oh ya there are reapers. 1 marine -> tech lab -> reapers as a followup
He made two gates @ 1:37 and 1:54. Which one do I kill? I had about 10 scvs by the time I saw him building the first gate. Do I pull 8 leaving 2 mining and building rax? that way I could manage killing one of the gates and lose 90% of my economy and he still has one gate operational.
It comes in the end like this. He will constantly make chrono-boosted zealots and accumulate them till totally outnumbering my marines while I had not enough money for constant troops and any further upgrades. I will have no bunker, so it's easy to lose marines within a blink of eye, due to mistakes in micro or simply lag issue.
You kill the first one made. are you sure it takes 8 scvs to kill a gateway? Also you have mule so your economy isn't too bad. Lemme go try it out scv vs gateway and I'll get back to you.
edit: with just some very basic testing if your scvs starting attacking his gateway right as it starts 4 kills gate before zealot comes out. 5 kills right as gateway finishes. 6 kills gate before it finishes
so another test shows an scv does about 65 damage in the period it takes for a zealot to chrono out. 4 scvs do about 280. Gauge how much hp the gateway will have when it completes and attach scvs accordingly.
last edit: 4 on first gateway to kill it before chrono zealot comes out. 5 if you see it late. 1-3 on second gateway then when first gateway is killed move all scvs to attacking second gateway. If your 1 marine and 1 zealot comes out it true, you will have a marine before his first zealot since first gate is dead. Hinder the zealot with marine and kill gate with scvs. You are now in a huge winning position. Yipee!
Thank you for the test. I would probably rely on your data and try some more. Yes, if 4-5 scvs would be effective against a gate, I will surely do that next time. If he builds two gates like in the screenshot, I will pull 8-9 scvs, which will be almost all I got. But if it really works, I suppose it's worth it.
Question: Should I try to kill off the gates with 7-8 scvs? - my guess is no way. he made two gates so he will manage to get zealots out anyway and I will lose all my economy. Should I not make bunkers? - I suppose at least I should make one? otherwise how am I supposed to handle this 1v1, 2v3, 3v5 situation? How do I stop his cannon?
Don't pull all your scv's just 2-3 to help you kill the probe, (3:13 pic looks like prime time for the kill)
One bunker should be good and judging by your last picture you need to work on your sim-city to make the zealots less effective.
If the probe is toast then there are no cannons, after that just take out his pylons(at least force him to defend them)/tech marauders.
and remember, if you barely survive you're ahead.
You are suggesting I base my defense totally on the assumption that I'm able to kill off his probe. In real battle, I don't think that's so easy.
definitely difficult to just kill his probe. Getting the surround takes good micro and because he's toss, he can just warp in his building. Above posters are correct in that hitting the gateway is your best chance for survival. Also, make sure when your marines pop out, you are tanking with SCV's so your marines aren't taking damage.
Whenever I have a protoss proxy me, I send one zealot straight to his mineral line since I know there will be nothing there to defend them. I'd assume that a marine or marauder would be fairly effective as well, but a bit more APM taxing since you'd have to kite. I'd say your best bet to beat this kind of play is to make a fairly fast rax and go straight to a marauder with concussive, as has already been stated. Any probes in your base will die very fast, and you can kill quite a few zealots with 1-2 marauders.
trying to kill the probe should be very difficult; the probe can ghostwalk out of any sort of surround you maybe able to pull. Its hard to tell in this case, but would you have been able to build a bunker next to the gateways and stick a rine in it w/ a few repairing scvs and one by your CC?
I think it's 6 scvs per gateway. I've lost a game where I was barely off and left a gateway with like 50 life as the zealot came out, and yet, I still haven't learned the scv to gateway count. Pretty annoying. Also even before 1 bunker marine, what about cutting gas, in the SS you have some spare gas? You can help the bunker simcity with a 2rax if you gas probably. Then the 1marinebunker v 3zealot isn't as scary.
Instead of concussive marauder, I would definitely opt for a reaper vs 2 gate. No stalkers are possible and you can threaten a game ending counter and you can kite infinite. Marauder vs Zealot isn't good unless I'm missing something.
Also! Don't orbital yet. 2nd Rax then orbital imo.
On May 27 2010 17:45 afirlortwo wrote: trying to kill the probe should be very difficult; the probe can ghostwalk out of any sort of surround you maybe able to pull. Its hard to tell in this case, but would you have been able to build a bunker next to the gateways and stick a rine in it w/ a few repairing scvs and one by your CC?
If the bunker does not cover my base, I won't have any scv mining because of zealot. So I could only build it around my base.
On a serious note, has anyone tried cancelling your rax, putting down an ebay and gas up for a fast planetary fortress? Obviously would put you behind in economy for a little while but should allow you to keep mining with all your scvs.
On May 28 2010 00:55 Inkarnate wrote: On a serious note, has anyone tried cancelling your rax, putting down an ebay and gas up for a fast planetary fortress? Obviously would put you behind in economy for a little while but should allow you to keep mining with all your scvs.
The correct counter to P proxy depends a lot on whether or not does in base or in your natural, and what time he does it. Fast PF has stopped a proxy once or twice for me, but it was a slightly later than normal proxy (1:45 as opposed to 1:00). I'm not sure if it should be the standard defense though, I've had good success with fast single Marauder. (Do the fast proxy style (except you don't proxy) reaper build, make a Marauder instead of a reaper).
A Gateway has 500/500 and 1 armour. That means 225 attacks from workers to kill it. It takes 65 seconds to build the Gateway, and another 22 seconds for the Zealot to pop up with a Chrono Boost (and a second immediately after the first - this is worst-case scenario).
Lets assume all of the SCVs arrive 5 seconds late to the party, so 82 seconds to kill a Gateway. Workers attack every 1.5 seconds, therefore, you need X SCVs to do 225 attacks, in 82 seconds.
One SCV can do 54 attacks in 82 seconds (82 / 1.5), and you need just over 4 (4.1667) SCVs to do 225 attacks in that time (225 / 54).
So, you need at least FIVE SCVs to kill the Gateway before the Zealot pops out, AND assuming all 5 SCVs arrive 5 seconds after the Gateway starts getting built. Plus you need one SCV to keep the Probe busy, so it isn't attacking the SCVs that are going after the Gateway.
look the best way to handle this is just to let the gateways finish and build a bunker/marine as soon as your barracks finishes.
Place the bunker within range of their gateways but between them and your CC. Continuously produce marines, and scv's when you have the minerals. Don't forget depots. Place them in range of your bunker. When you get enough for a 2nd bunker, build one at your mineral line assuming the first one doesn't cover that area.
Obviously, fix the bunkers as they get attacked. If he ignores your bunker, pull the marines out and have them shoot the zealots. The zealots will have a choice between ignoring the marines or trying to chase. Kite the zealots and return the marines to the bunker. (repeat as needed)
If he doesn't give up on it, try to build a second rax, or if you have enough marines then build a tech lab and send a reaper to his base. Or you could send an scv out and proxy rax him that might be even better since he won't know it's coming.
Also after you get like 4 or 5 marines you can try sniping the probe. You can also send some guys (marines or scv's) out to kill the pylon, if you can afford it.
Do not use SCV's to kill the gateway. He'll either cancel it or just let you kill it. You'll lose way more than 150 minerals in mining time.
Assuming you hold it off you'll kill 2 gateways, X zealots, and a pylon. Your bunkers can be salvaged after the fact so don't be squeamish about using them. You probably should not lose any marines, but you might lose some scv's or mining time.
I wouldn't bother with marauders at all. You'd be better off with a reaper. Well that's not true, if he manages to get cannons up you'll want marauders. But you should be able to hold off the push before he gets a forge+cannons.
Personally, I generally see the Probe come in and I watch its blip on the mini-map closely while it's scouting- if it does any funny business for even half a second I'll pull an SCV to check for a Pylon. Usually I can find the Pylon before it's finished and pull SCVs to kill that and force the 'toss to start Pylon spamming which buys me some valuable time to get a 'rax, Refinery, and Tech Lab up. Reapers can snipe the Probe easily, deal with any Zealots that pop out, and then make the 'toss pay the second you have the proxy dealt with.
Ofc, I am 9 'raxing w/9 Refinery and 11 Depot against 'toss most of the time anyway since the fast Reapers are nice for screwing-over cheese like this and harassing 'toss while I get my Ghostmech out.
On May 27 2010 12:51 madjerry wrote: sorry guys, but honestly I did not find the posts above very helpful to my particular situation as shown in the screenshot.
Scout: Scouting is irrelevant to this situation. I knew what he was doing from the moment I saw him sneaking the probe in.
Kill probe: I was not able to kill the probe (note this is diamond level, not brownze. it's just impossible kill that probe even with a marine).
Bunker with tanks? The game ended before 7:00.
I would like to see my questions answered upfront.
Please understand that I am not trying to be mean when I take out the Ego Ice Pick.
1. All someone has to do to get into diamond league is win 5 matches against 5 random people.
2. Scouting is never EVER irrelevant. If you had scouted your base earlier, or kept an eye on your radar and caught the probe early, you could have prevented a cheese win.
3. Even in diamond league, the 11 plus SCV's on your line should be able to surround and kill a probe.
4. If you build a bunker when you see his pylon/gateway coming down, you can put a single marine inside of it and repair it with an scv. Then when the second marine comes out, you have two marines in a bunker and his zealots have to move away. At this point you can either.
A. Leave your marines in the bunker and kill his proxy. He shouldn't have soo many zealots at this point that he can crush your base. If he does, macro better.
B. Take your marines out and persue the zealots. Im not sure why you would do this unless you really hate having your mining interrupted.
You could also send an SCV to his base with a few marines and build a bunker at his mineral line or build one ad the edge of his base and bunker hop.
Either the toss send a probe into your base really early to get this proxy up, which means he has very little money, in which case you wont have many marines to stop it, but the bunker should help.
Or he pulled this off a bit later, which means he can build more zealots, but you should have more that enough marines to kill his probe and shut his proxy down.
Build times (provided by SC2 Armory)
Pylon 25 seconds and 100m into Gateway x2 65 seconds and 300m into Zealot x2 33 seconds(22 with boost) and 200m
Thats 112 seconds minimum before you see your first zealots not to mention at least 87 seconds where the pylon is naked and vulnerable to attack.
It takes you
60 seconds and 150m to make a rax which you should have already been building. Simultaneously you can build a Bunker in 30 secs with 100m and a Marine in 25 secs and put it in the bunker before the gateway has even finished if you catch them immediately and didnt have a rax yet, or if you started making a rax after they finished the pylon, you can still get your rine into the bunker before the zealots finish. at which point you kill the zeals if they stay and heal the bunker, and kill the pyon if the zeals run away.
Either way, being aware of a proxy inside of your base is probably the only thing you need to worry about as a terran. So check that grass if you want to stay diamond, or you can go back to the "brownze league".
You are supposed to go after the pylon(s) not the gate/cannons. You'll have barracks up way before protoss has forge (which is needed for cannons) so pumping marines out fast takes care of any cannon issues if you are smart. Cannon rushes are so common that I always "sacrafice" 1 worker by having it follow the probe the moment it enters the base. As you'll be walling your ramp when that happens you'll know whenever it enters.
So to sum up: -start by walling the ramp. -send a worker after the probe when it enters your base so you know instantly if something is built. Pay attention though because some of the cheesiest protosses send one of their starting probes into your base to make them harder to spot. -if that probe sets up a pylon you pull few (about 3-4 seems to be fine imo) probes from your mineral line to wreck it while getting your marines out. Always gun at the pylons, if he gets 2 pylons up and starts building a cannon/gate around the time you finish the first pylon don't make the mistake of switching target from the second pylon to that gate or cannon. -You stop the probe production for marines until the base is clean -Profit!
most losses against cannon and proxy gate rushes are because of bad scouting and/or panicing. I have won surprisingly many games simply by hiding my scouting probe into the terran base without even planning to cheese them at first. Basically If the probe lives unscouted in the corner of the base until I get warpgates up its only fair to put a pylon up and warp some army in to steal the win, the lazy terran deserves it. =P
On May 28 2010 00:55 Inkarnate wrote: On a serious note, has anyone tried cancelling your rax, putting down an ebay and gas up for a fast planetary fortress? Obviously would put you behind in economy for a little while but should allow you to keep mining with all your scvs.
Cannon range=7. PF range=6. So I guess PF won't do against cannons, plus once done, a PF cannot move itself.
On May 28 2010 03:29 Bibdy wrote: A Gateway has 500/500 and 1 armour. That means 225 attacks from workers to kill it. It takes 65 seconds to build the Gateway, and another 22 seconds for the Zealot to pop up with a Chrono Boost (and a second immediately after the first - this is worst-case scenario).
Lets assume all of the SCVs arrive 5 seconds late to the party, so 82 seconds to kill a Gateway. Workers attack every 1.5 seconds, therefore, you need X SCVs to do 225 attacks, in 82 seconds.
One SCV can do 54 attacks in 82 seconds (82 / 1.5), and you need just over 4 (4.1667) SCVs to do 225 attacks in that time (225 / 54).
So, you need at least FIVE SCVs to kill the Gateway before the Zealot pops out, AND assuming all 5 SCVs arrive 5 seconds after the Gateway starts getting built. Plus you need one SCV to keep the Probe busy, so it isn't attacking the SCVs that are going after the Gateway.
Ta-da.
This is a very convincing calculation. Very helpful! What I actually wanted are ideas like this one, which are based on facts and real experiences. Thank you.
On May 28 2010 03:49 DuneBug wrote: look the best way to handle this is just to let the gateways finish and build a bunker/marine as soon as your barracks finishes.
Place the bunker within range of their gateways but between them and your CC. Continuously produce marines, and scv's when you have the minerals. Don't forget depots. Place them in range of your bunker. When you get enough for a 2nd bunker, build one at your mineral line assuming the first one doesn't cover that area.
Obviously, fix the bunkers as they get attacked. If he ignores your bunker, pull the marines out and have them shoot the zealots. The zealots will have a choice between ignoring the marines or trying to chase. Kite the zealots and return the marines to the bunker. (repeat as needed)
If he doesn't give up on it, try to build a second rax, or if you have enough marines then build a tech lab and send a reaper to his base. Or you could send an scv out and proxy rax him that might be even better since he won't know it's coming.
Also after you get like 4 or 5 marines you can try sniping the probe. You can also send some guys (marines or scv's) out to kill the pylon, if you can afford it.
Do not use SCV's to kill the gateway. He'll either cancel it or just let you kill it. You'll lose way more than 150 minerals in mining time.
Assuming you hold it off you'll kill 2 gateways, X zealots, and a pylon. Your bunkers can be salvaged after the fact so don't be squeamish about using them. You probably should not lose any marines, but you might lose some scv's or mining time.
I wouldn't bother with marauders at all. You'd be better off with a reaper. Well that's not true, if he manages to get cannons up you'll want marauders. But you should be able to hold off the push before he gets a forge+cannons.
I wonder did you check out the screenshots? That's exactly what I opted to do but it ended up with a fail. Sorry, ignoring it won't help. When you have 4 marines, he will have 7 zealots and a forge being built. Soon enough you will see cannons popping up. If you tries to bunker near his gate, that seems an idea but before you destroy his two gates, his zealots will have killed all your scvs. Yes you can micro your marines and scvs can dodge zealots, but it just won't work the way you imagined. You will gradually lose all your economy and scvs/marines. All he lost are some cheap and fast-made zealots.
On May 28 2010 05:09 TerranUp16 wrote: Personally, I generally see the Probe come in and I watch its blip on the mini-map closely while it's scouting- if it does any funny business for even half a second I'll pull an SCV to check for a Pylon. Usually I can find the Pylon before it's finished and pull SCVs to kill that and force the 'toss to start Pylon spamming which buys me some valuable time to get a 'rax, Refinery, and Tech Lab up. Reapers can snipe the Probe easily, deal with any Zealots that pop out, and then make the 'toss pay the second you have the proxy dealt with.
Ofc, I am 9 'raxing w/9 Refinery and 11 Depot against 'toss most of the time anyway since the fast Reapers are nice for screwing-over cheese like this and harassing 'toss while I get my Ghostmech out.
Generally, killing pylons are not advised as he can just cancel and make two more at a time. But as you mentioned, it might be able to delay his zealots and buy me a little more time for the reapers. I haven't tried that yet. I think the time bought is very limited (equals to the time between his first and second pylon, I think) while I still have to pull 4-5 scvs and spare 3 for gas, which will make my minerals on a very low level. I don't know if that will work.
Epic suggestion. Probably won't work on any two player maps or cross positions, but baller points for trying.
It might be a bit more difficult to pull off in sc2, due to the fact that if he somehow affords warpgate tech, he can still defend himself reasonably well.
I've been favoring 9 rax 11 supply 11 oc against all match ups currently, it protects against all cheese and getting that fast mule makes up for the scvs being cut. Once you see that gateway up pull 5-6 scvs and start attacking the gateway. What the protoss player is going to do it put up another gateway, at that point split your scvs 3 on each gateway. Have one of the scvs drop a bunker and continue to pump marines and you should be safe at that point.
Well, if you catch him going for the first Pylon, you can have an SCV chase his Probe to damage it when it stops to place Pylons and often with the SCVs you pull, if you catch him this early you have a much better chance of trapping the Probe on initial placement as well (and if you get the Probe, well nothing else matters at that point since you'll have no issue and even w/the econ delay your first Marine or Reaper should be out in time to chase down any follow-up Probes).
But yeah, I find it pretty win-win since your minerals are low and Reaper delayed, but his counter tends to be delayed as well. You stand a chance of killing the Probe quickly, forcing the 'toss to invest in Pylon spam (not a big investment and about as long-term as any Bunkers you put up to counter this, but it will hurt any kind of standard play the 'toss wants to progress back at his main), and you can also immediately get your SCVs on any Gateways he spawns after one of the Pylons gets completed (and again, once you see that Pylon complete you know what that Probe is going to do so you can often trap the Probe against the Gateway it just started warping in to kill it then focus the Gateway down and hit him with Reapers).
On May 27 2010 12:51 madjerry wrote: sorry guys, but honestly I did not find the posts above very helpful to my particular situation as shown in the screenshot.
Scout: Scouting is irrelevant to this situation. I knew what he was doing from the moment I saw him sneaking the probe in.
Kill probe: I was not able to kill the probe (note this is diamond level, not brownze. it's just impossible kill that probe even with a marine).
Bunker with tanks? The game ended before 7:00.
I would like to see my questions answered upfront.
Please understand that I am not trying to be mean when I take out the Ego Ice Pick.
1. All someone has to do to get into diamond league is win 5 matches against 5 random people.
2. Scouting is never EVER irrelevant. If you had scouted your base earlier, or kept an eye on your radar and caught the probe early, you could have prevented a cheese win.
3. Even in diamond league, the 11 plus SCV's on your line should be able to surround and kill a probe.
4. If you build a bunker when you see his pylon/gateway coming down, you can put a single marine inside of it and repair it with an scv. Then when the second marine comes out, you have two marines in a bunker and his zealots have to move away. At this point you can either.
A. Leave your marines in the bunker and kill his proxy. He shouldn't have soo many zealots at this point that he can crush your base. If he does, macro better.
B. Take your marines out and persue the zealots. Im not sure why you would do this unless you really hate having your mining interrupted.
You could also send an SCV to his base with a few marines and build a bunker at his mineral line or build one ad the edge of his base and bunker hop.
Either the toss send a probe into your base really early to get this proxy up, which means he has very little money, in which case you wont have many marines to stop it, but the bunker should help.
Or he pulled this off a bit later, which means he can build more zealots, but you should have more that enough marines to kill his probe and shut his proxy down.
Build times (provided by SC2 Armory)
Pylon 25 seconds and 100m into Gateway x2 65 seconds and 300m into Zealot x2 33 seconds(22 with boost) and 200m
Thats 112 seconds minimum before you see your first zealots not to mention at least 87 seconds where the pylon is naked and vulnerable to attack.
It takes you
60 seconds and 150m to make a rax which you should have already been building. Simultaneously you can build a Bunker in 30 secs with 100m and a Marine in 25 secs and put it in the bunker before the gateway has even finished if you catch them immediately and didnt have a rax yet, or if you started making a rax after they finished the pylon, you can still get your rine into the bunker before the zealots finish. at which point you kill the zeals if they stay and heal the bunker, and kill the pyon if the zeals run away.
Either way, being aware of a proxy inside of your base is probably the only thing you need to worry about as a terran. So check that grass if you want to stay diamond, or you can go back to the "brownze league".
1. I was 1800+ before reset. And I achieved this within 60 placement matches. (so, 5 placement match NO. Random players Yes.) So when I said diamond, I meant it. But this does not negate the fact an in-base proxy P is still my headache. That's why I came asking for help.
2. I said I knew what he was doing from the moment I saw his probe. (because of the weird timing) That was even before he put down the first gate. That's why your scouting theory was irrelevant to my specific situation. What more do you expect me to do? Did you ever check out the OP?
3. It's impossible to surround a probe with whatever number of scvs with a good toss player. Anyone disagree? I think you are just trying to be sarcastic as I mentioned I am in diamond league.
4. I believe you haven't tried this with a real good toss player. Giving up the mineral line is the most useless counter. It takes forever to shut down the two gates by only making one-rax marines. During this time, your economy will stop completely and he can just make everything again and tech up. He may also opt for cannons while keeping his zealots twice as your marine count.
I need solid suggestions. Not just imagination and theories that have not been tested. Sorry if you find this offending. But since there are people who are allegedly able to fend it off easily, I really want to know what different choices they would make.
You'll only get to kill the Probe if the Protoss foolishly runs through your mineral line, or you get an offensive unit out. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise. It might happen in 1 or 2 out of 10 games and sometimes you just won't surround it in time before it scurries away. Do NOT rely on killing the Probe.
I would think a 9-Rax Reaper would shut this down hardcore. He's only going to be able to kill the Reaper if he gets a Stalker out (or multiple Sentries - cause they die sooooo fast to Reapers). Its why I stopped doing any proxy cheese on Terrans. If they go for a Reaper first, you're utterly boned and many Terrans do that nowadays, prompting a 10-Gate, 14-Core, Stalker response.
If the protoss 7 proxies, then you are far ahead money wise. Day 9 teaches in one of his recent videos that too many people freak out when being harassed early game, and forget to realize they are so far ahead economy wise. When you see a protoss do this, immediately begin building a bunker by your cc and start a second barax and upgrade your CC. Turtle up while you gain a huge economic advantage until finally you can push out into it.
I understand his first Zealot comes out around the same time as your marine because of chrono, but a marine is all your need to fight off that zealot while your 2nd barax finishes and you continue to pump marines into your bunker.
The best advice you can get is to not panic or alter your build. Adjust your build slightly but don't change what you normally do against a protoss player who 2 gates in his own base.
BTW, The ultimate way to make sure this never ever ever ever happens to you again is to always always 9 rax reaper. Reapers rape endless amounts of zealots and completely negate any kind of proxy rush against terran.
On May 28 2010 06:15 Diokhan wrote: You are supposed to go after the pylon(s) not the gate/cannons. You'll have barracks up way before protoss has forge (which is needed for cannons) so pumping marines out fast takes care of any cannon issues if you are smart. Cannon rushes are so common that I always "sacrafice" 1 worker by having it follow the probe the moment it enters the base. As you'll be walling your ramp when that happens you'll know whenever it enters.
So to sum up: -start by walling the ramp. -send a worker after the probe when it enters your base so you know instantly if something is built. Pay attention though because some of the cheesiest protosses send one of their starting probes into your base to make them harder to spot. -if that probe sets up a pylon you pull few (about 3-4 seems to be fine imo) probes from your mineral line to wreck it while getting your marines out. Always gun at the pylons, if he gets 2 pylons up and starts building a cannon/gate around the time you finish the first pylon don't make the mistake of switching target from the second pylon to that gate or cannon. -You stop the probe production for marines until the base is clean -Profit!
most losses against cannon and proxy gate rushes are because of bad scouting and/or panicing. I have won surprisingly many games simply by hiding my scouting probe into the terran base without even planning to cheese them at first. Basically If the probe lives unscouted in the corner of the base until I get warpgates up its only fair to put a pylon up and warp some army in to steal the win, the lazy terran deserves it. =P
Kittos paljon for your suggestions. I do scout hidden places on every 2P map early. (around the same time I start my first depot). But from many terran players' experiences, going after pylons are not as effective as gateways, as you won't be able to deny a zealot coming out anyway, you can only delay them a bit. Wallin cannot stop an probe sent into your base early enough.
I wrote that whole paragraph then at the end remembered this was sc2 and i was answering a question for broodwar.
9 rax reaper is faster than 2 gate proxy, you will not only fend it off, but can send a reaper to his mineral line to completely cut off minerals funding those zealots.
Well I am a toss player and I use this strategy almost every time on Steppes of War, Blistering Sands, and Scrap Station. I have only lost to a Terran player who let me get the gates completed twice recently.
Once was when he went 9 rax reaper. I think a later reaper would work too. Just attack the Zealots with some SCVs and marines to keep them busy but make sure to keep mining gas to make reapers. 1 reaper properly microed should be enough to kill their Zealots and hold them off till you can get 2 reapers at which point you win.
The other guy simcitied and built a bunker that could simultaneously protect his mineral line, CC, and barracks. He made only marines. Note - I would have won this game if I was able to attack the SCV building the bunker; however, the SCV was unreachable during the crucial 5 seconds before his SCVs surrounded my Zealot, pinning him against the bunker. Thus this counter is somewhat luck-based; if they are able to prevent the building of the bunker you will probably lose.
If you don't make a bunker or conc shell marauder or reaper you will lose. Marines are too slow to effectively kite Zealots and they kill Zealots too slowly to prevent them from just taking out all of your SCVs at this stage of the game. Even if you never lose a Marine and keep taking out the Zealots you will find out pretty quickly that you don't have any SCVs left...
Also you will never see my probe enter your base unless you go 9 rax or 9 supply. Even then it's kind of iffy - you probably won't see it on Steppes of War but probably will on Scrap Station (my build is 9 pylon 10 gate 11 gate).
On May 28 2010 11:18 Uranium wrote: Well I am a toss player and I use this strategy almost every time on Steppes of War, Blistering Sands, and Scrap Station. I have only lost to a Terran player who let me get the gates completed twice recently.
Once was when he went 9 rax reaper. I think a later reaper would work too. Just attack the Zealots with some SCVs and marines to keep them busy but make sure to keep mining gas to make reapers. 1 reaper properly microed should be enough to kill their Zealots and hold them off till you can get 2 reapers at which point you win.
The other guy simcitied and built a bunker that could simultaneously protect his mineral line, CC, and barracks. He made only marines. Note - I would have won this game if I was able to attack the SCV building the bunker; however, the SCV was unreachable during the crucial 5 seconds before his SCVs surrounded my Zealot, pinning him against the bunker. Thus this counter is somewhat luck-based; if they are able to prevent the building of the bunker you will probably lose.
If you don't make a bunker or conc shell marauder or reaper you will lose. Marines are too slow to effectively kite Zealots and they kill Zealots too slowly to prevent them from just taking out all of your SCVs at this stage of the game. Even if you never lose a Marine and keep taking out the Zealots you will find out pretty quickly that you don't have any SCVs left...
Also you will never see my probe enter your base unless you go 9 rax or 9 supply. Even then it's kind of iffy - you probably won't see it on Steppes of War but probably will on Scrap Station (my build is 9 pylon 10 gate 11 gate).
so, as a toss player with a high winning rate using this proxy build, you are suggesting reaper as a effective counter? Do you think killing off the gate is equally effective? What terran reaction do you not want to see most? Thank you for your insight from toss perspective.
I did this vs a few terrans and the only one who's beat got a bunker and a second rax as soon as he saw it. I think cannons would beat that though.
9 reaper should just own it unless he gets stalkers out really fast, but if you go late reaper you'll probably lose the tech lab, since a lot of toss plays go for your supply depo first.
On May 28 2010 11:18 Uranium wrote: Well I am a toss player and I use this strategy almost every time on Steppes of War, Blistering Sands, and Scrap Station. I have only lost to a Terran player who let me get the gates completed twice recently.
Once was when he went 9 rax reaper. I think a later reaper would work too. Just attack the Zealots with some SCVs and marines to keep them busy but make sure to keep mining gas to make reapers. 1 reaper properly microed should be enough to kill their Zealots and hold them off till you can get 2 reapers at which point you win.
The other guy simcitied and built a bunker that could simultaneously protect his mineral line, CC, and barracks. He made only marines. Note - I would have won this game if I was able to attack the SCV building the bunker; however, the SCV was unreachable during the crucial 5 seconds before his SCVs surrounded my Zealot, pinning him against the bunker. Thus this counter is somewhat luck-based; if they are able to prevent the building of the bunker you will probably lose.
If you don't make a bunker or conc shell marauder or reaper you will lose. Marines are too slow to effectively kite Zealots and they kill Zealots too slowly to prevent them from just taking out all of your SCVs at this stage of the game. Even if you never lose a Marine and keep taking out the Zealots you will find out pretty quickly that you don't have any SCVs left...
Also you will never see my probe enter your base unless you go 9 rax or 9 supply. Even then it's kind of iffy - you probably won't see it on Steppes of War but probably will on Scrap Station (my build is 9 pylon 10 gate 11 gate).
so, as a toss player with a high winning rate using this proxy build, you are suggesting reaper as a effective counter? Do you think killing off the gate is equally effective? What terran reaction do you not want to see most? Thank you for your insight from toss perspective.
Another toss player here, low plat/high gold pre patch, still hope I can provide some help. :p
The most annoying reaction (besides the obvious early reapers, of course) on proxy pylons/gates for me usually also is a really tight base build + a bunker covering most of it. If I can't get some of his SCVs or kill his marines/destroy his bunker without losing to many zealots I'm trying to get some cannons up by here, but if that also fails the terran usually wins as he'll get reapers fast enough.
I've also lost two or three games to terrans pulling SCVs and destroying the gates/pylons, but most people seriously pull too many SCVs or I start spamming 2-3 pylons at once - most terrans stop trying to destroy them by here. I guess focusing the warpgate with 5~ SCVs works out better, but not many people are doing that. You're losing some mining time, but you totally screw the toss' timing/rush ability. Even if he starts another Warpgate or two, you still delay his first zealot massively.
If you want to try and kill the gateways: it takes 6 workers to kill a half-built gateway before a chronoboosted zealot completes. It takes 14 workers to kill a fully-built gateway before a chronoboosted zealot completes. I'm not sure it'd be worth it, but it's something you could check.
On May 27 2010 12:51 madjerry wrote: sorry guys, but honestly I did not find the posts above very helpful to my particular situation as shown in the screenshot.
Scout: Scouting is irrelevant to this situation. I knew what he was doing from the moment I saw him sneaking the probe in.
Kill probe: I was not able to kill the probe (note this is diamond level, not brownze. it's just impossible kill that probe even with a marine).
Bunker with tanks? The game ended before 7:00.
I would like to see my questions answered upfront.
Please understand that I am not trying to be mean when I take out the Ego Ice Pick.
1. All someone has to do to get into diamond league is win 5 matches against 5 random people.
2. Scouting is never EVER irrelevant. If you had scouted your base earlier, or kept an eye on your radar and caught the probe early, you could have prevented a cheese win.
3. Even in diamond league, the 11 plus SCV's on your line should be able to surround and kill a probe.
4. If you build a bunker when you see his pylon/gateway coming down, you can put a single marine inside of it and repair it with an scv. Then when the second marine comes out, you have two marines in a bunker and his zealots have to move away. At this point you can either.
A. Leave your marines in the bunker and kill his proxy. He shouldn't have soo many zealots at this point that he can crush your base. If he does, macro better.
B. Take your marines out and persue the zealots. Im not sure why you would do this unless you really hate having your mining interrupted.
You could also send an SCV to his base with a few marines and build a bunker at his mineral line or build one ad the edge of his base and bunker hop.
Either the toss send a probe into your base really early to get this proxy up, which means he has very little money, in which case you wont have many marines to stop it, but the bunker should help.
Or he pulled this off a bit later, which means he can build more zealots, but you should have more that enough marines to kill his probe and shut his proxy down.
Build times (provided by SC2 Armory)
Pylon 25 seconds and 100m into Gateway x2 65 seconds and 300m into Zealot x2 33 seconds(22 with boost) and 200m
Thats 112 seconds minimum before you see your first zealots not to mention at least 87 seconds where the pylon is naked and vulnerable to attack.
It takes you
60 seconds and 150m to make a rax which you should have already been building. Simultaneously you can build a Bunker in 30 secs with 100m and a Marine in 25 secs and put it in the bunker before the gateway has even finished if you catch them immediately and didnt have a rax yet, or if you started making a rax after they finished the pylon, you can still get your rine into the bunker before the zealots finish. at which point you kill the zeals if they stay and heal the bunker, and kill the pyon if the zeals run away.
Either way, being aware of a proxy inside of your base is probably the only thing you need to worry about as a terran. So check that grass if you want to stay diamond, or you can go back to the "brownze league".
Sorry but: 3 - You can never kill a probe with SCVs, ever Anytime it gets trapped, you can just click a mineral patch and you are safe.
4 - If you build a bunker next to the gateways, you will die because the zealots will just walk past it and kill all your scvs in your mineral line.
I don't wall TvP, and this is partly why - it just means I lose my supply depot and will have to float my rax home (which means I can't make an addon).
1. don't wall-in put your rax next to your command center 2. build a bunker next to your command 3. build a 2nd rax right away take stuff off gas (unless you are going for a reaper which is good)
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