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On October 31 2010 06:53 XaggaH wrote:
I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link.
As the author of that thread, I can safely say that you'll find it claims the extractor trick is definitely better for an 11 pool.
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On October 31 2010 06:53 XaggaH wrote:
I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link.
True. But as the OP stated, when doing the 11 pool, the early queen makes up for this, since around 4:37 the 11 pool has 2-3 more larvae than the 14 pool, which makes up for the eventual losses.
Also I find it much easier to defend vs just about anything. I have lost against Terran and Protoss where they kept inside their base until they had a really size able army with everything in it. Terran going tanks, marauders, marines, medivacs, and the Protoss going zealot, stalker, collosus. In those cases I need to mix up my army as well. Roaches, Mutas, Infestors, maybe even Hydras.
But having tested this for months, it seems to me the economic loss between a well played 14 pool and a well played 11 pool is usually less than 100 minerals, with 100 minerals probably being more due to the 11 pool being pulled of badly.
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On October 31 2010 07:39 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 06:53 XaggaH wrote:
I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link. As the author of that thread, I can safely say that you'll find it claims the extractor trick is definitely better for an 11 pool.
That thread is in fact what inspired me to go for the 11 overpool instead of the 10 overpool. Thanks
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can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing
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On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing
http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replay
This is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent.
The BO from what I remember is:
10 extractor trick 11
11 overlord
11 pool
16 queen
18 expand
18 overlord
18 extractor
Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field.
I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
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On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replayThis is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent. The BO from what I remember is: 10 extractor trick 11 11 overlord 11 pool 16 queen 18 expand 18 overlord 18 extractor Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field. I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
thanks dude!
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On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:
I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
I don't recall having problems spending larvae from the second queen when I did a 14pool/15hatch, with the second queen starting production at the main hatchery as soon as the first one finished. That would explain why my results came in higher than yours, if I had a second queen working and you didn't.
Even if you can't manage to spend the larvae from one inject, you can always put down one creep tumor instead of an inject, but the second queen is what takes the larvae advantage back away from 11pool, and you're going to want it anyway.
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On November 02 2010 01:42 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:
I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid. I don't recall having problems spending larvae from the second queen when I did a 14pool/15hatch, with the second queen starting production at the main hatchery as soon as the first one finished. That would explain why my results came in higher than yours, if I had a second queen working and you didn't. Even if you can't manage to spend the larvae from one inject, you can always put down one creep tumor instead of an inject, but the second queen is what takes the larvae advantage back away from 11pool, and you're going to want it anyway.
No the larvae from the second queen is no problem, the problem is if you get the queen right away, then the first queens larvae cant be used right away, and the second queens larvae just does not end up being much used at the 7 min mark, since it takes 50 seconds to get that queen and 40 more seconds to get the inject done. Then there is the drone spawn time, and they need to gather minerals.
Usually a second queen does pay off though.
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On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replayThis is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent. The BO from what I remember is: 10 extractor trick 11 11 overlord 11 pool 16 queen 18 expand 18 overlord 18 extractor Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field. I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
whats the advantage of this over going like, 14 pool 16 hatch? what race are you using this against? zerg?
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On November 02 2010 12:12 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replayThis is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent. The BO from what I remember is: 10 extractor trick 11 11 overlord 11 pool 16 queen 18 expand 18 overlord 18 extractor Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field. I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid. whats the advantage of this over going like, 14 pool 16 hatch? what race are you using this against? zerg?
Its not supposed to be the tactic, so the reasons is: You do the 11 pool to be safe early, find the other player is turtling so you just go for the early expand anyway. The loss being less than 50 resources anyway. Another reason to make the other expect anything but an early expand, and still do it. The last reason would be ZvZ, finding that you the other Zerg is making a spine instead of early lings, so you might as well expand and go roach or someting.
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Have anyone tried to compare the double extractor trick to 12/10 then overpool build?
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This is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. ...
Have you compared to
10 trick 11 pool
10 trick 11 overlord
or to
10 trick 11 overlord 12 pool
?
The former has looked better to me, but I haven't tried all variations. The latter has the advantage of having no time with 3 larva sitting around. The pool first FE build that seemed promising was
11 pool 11 over 14 queen 17 hatch 17 over 18 queen ...
(I didn't try squeezing an extractor into it)
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On November 02 2010 12:12 Subversion wrote:whats the advantage of this over going like, 14 pool 16 hatch? what race are you using this against? zerg?
Caldor already mentioned safety. There are two other advantages:
* Earlier zerglings, should you decide to do so. (e.g. to slow a hatch-first zerg)
* More larvae due to early queen. If you make a non-trivial amount of zerglings, this means you can build more drones while still getting the same zergling count.
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EPT
