EPTNow you're saying 11 pool is better? I'll have to try that then... =]
Yeah everyone else is playing zerg wrong, eh? hah
11 poolover vs 14 pool - Page 2
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
Now you're saying 11 pool is better? I'll have to try that then... =] Yeah everyone else is playing zerg wrong, eh? hah | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
 I started out with the 10 pool and did some tests. Basicly the build was:10 overlord 10 pool 16 queen And just branch out from there. Then most people on the EU forum just flamed this idea, although I proved the early larvae advantage, and I thought that would make perfect sense. Apparently not. So I came here because people really swear to this forum as the source of all SC2 wisdom, and I have to admit it is true. The one who made this thread had reached all my conclusions... 5 months before me!?! I am a bit amazed. I guess most people left this go unnoticed, which is why I am reviving it. But before finding this thread, and the reason I ever tried the 11 pool, was because of other thread about why the 9 overlord > 14 pool is a better economic opening than 10 overlord > 14 pool. It went to find that the 10 extractor trick, 11 overlord actually proved to be very close to doing the 9 overlord - 14 pool in early economics. So I thought why not use this for my 10 pool idea? Since quite a few people on the EU SC2 Battle Net forum still cannot see how the 10 and 11 pool can become an economic advantage over the 14 pool, I came here and joined this forum. I was about to make a thread and noticed I am locked for 3 days. So I tried looking for a somewhat similar topic... and this came up. I am amazed at how the OP had these maths, that I have just spent over a month doing, in the beta. Kudos to him. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
On October 26 2010 05:34 TheRabidDeer wrote: 14 pool gets you several hundred more minerals than 10 pool, but the 10 pool gets you about 2 extra larvae. Several hundred? No, but it does get almost 100 more. Check the OP again, he did the math. But focus on the 11 pool though and assume some early teching the first 5 min, like lair, double extractor, evolution chamber and / or roach warren. Along with upgrades for these like +1 melee attack, +1 armor or specific unit upgrades. Also the point with this build is that the 14 pool starts out with a few extra minerals, but 5 minutes into the game the 11 pool has the higher income, and is ready to make offense, and even have been ready for quite a few seconds. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
Also the point with this build is that the 14 pool starts out with a few extra minerals, but 5 minutes into the game the 11 pool has the higher income This is simply not true. It doesn't have a higher income. It *is* about 1.5 larvae ahead, but those larvae come at the cost of *always* being behind economically. So, you can make offensive or defensive units faster (if you can afford them, that is, since you're behind economically), but 14pool will get non-larvae stuff (buildings, upgrades, lair, etc) faster. Warning: ridiculously detailed analysis ahead. There's a pretty serious problem with just comparing builds by where they are at time X. For example, whether the original poster intentionally cherry-picked or not, he just happened to pick a time where it looks like you're ahead 4 workers. At that exact point in time, yes the build is ahead 4 workers. But that doesn't mean the 11pool has a higher income, and in fact it doesn't, due to the price that it paid to get those 4 larvae faster. Here's a detailed list of what happens in the first 2 minutes of a 14pool and an 11overpool (trick, then overlord, then pool): 14pool 0:00 Start drone 7 - 2 larvae 0:15 larvae spawn - 3 larvae 0:18 Start drone 8 - 2 larvae 0:29 Start drone 9 - 1 larvae 0:33 Larva - 2 larvae 0:48 Larva + Start overlord - 2 larvae 0:56 Start drone 10 - 1 larvae 1:03 Larva - 2 larvae 1:13 Drone 10 finish + Start drone 11/12 - 0 larvae 1:18 Larva - start drone 13 1:19 1:29 Drone 11/12 finish 1:33 Larva - start drone 14 1:37 Drone 13 finish 1:48 Larva - 1 larvae 1:50 Drone 14 finish 1:53 Pool start 1:59 Start drone 14 - 0 larvae 2:03 Larva - 1 larvae 2:16 Drone 14 finish 11pool 0:00 Start drone 7 - 2 larvae 0:15 larvae spawn - 3 larvae 0:18 Start drone 8 - 2 larvae 0:29 Start drone 9 - 1 larvae 0:33 Larva - 2 larvae 0:38 Start drone 10 - 1 larvae 0:48 Larva - 2 larvae 0:53 Extractor trick + Start drone 11 - 1 larvae 0:55 Drone 10 finish 1:03 Larva - 2 larvae 1:05 Start overlord - 1 larvae 1:09 Drone 11 finish 1:18 Larva - 2 larvae 1:33 Larva - 3 larvae 1:34 Pool start 1:40 Start drone 11 - 2 larvae 1:48 Start drone 12 - 1 larvae 1:55 Larva + Start drone 13 - 1 larvae 1:57 Drone 11 finish 2:02 Start drone 14 - 0 larvae 2:05 Drone 12 finish 2:10 Larva - 1 larvae 2:12 Drone 13 finish 2:19 Drone 14 finish The first 33 seconds, up to starting the 9th drone, are the same for both starts. When comparing the 11 pool to the 14pool, the 11pool: gains 18 worker seconds on drone 10 gains 20 seconds on drone 11 Loses 23 seconds on drone 11 after starting the pool Loses 36 seconds on drone 12 Loses 35 seconds on drone 13 Loses 3 seconds on first drone 14 (the time between when the 14th worker finishes and the pool starts) Loses 3 seconds on second drone 14 (that was rebuilt after the pool) That works out to 43.4 minerals worth of lost mining time before 2:19. In addition, because the queen finishes faster, 11pool has to start the overlord 1 larvae sooner, which is worth 15 seconds of drone time, and the extractor trick itself costs around another 5 seconds, for another 14.5 minerals. Add in the cost of the trick itself, and we have a total of 67.9 minerals lost in the first 2 minutes. In addition, from 1:33 to 1:40, wasting 7 seconds worth of spawn time with 3 stockpiled larvae. Every drone made from 14 on loses that 7 seconds, for about 5 minerals worth of mining time each. This is all very important to know, because early minerals are much more important than later minerals, because they affect *all* of your timings, and 67.9 minerals equates to being about 7 seconds faster with whatever it was you were planning to do. A faster hatchery, a faster roach warren, faster upgrades. Because the 11 pool finishes the pool faster (duh), it does get an advantage in larvae spawn. Finishing 19 seconds faster means that you get to use that extra 4 larvae 19 seconds sooner (again, duh). If you make drones out of all of them, that's 76 seconds worth of worker time, which is equivalent to about 53 minerals, which means that an 11pool does come pretty close to catching up economically after the first spawn larvae finishes. There are a couple of problems though. The first is that you haven't actually caught back up completely, even if you use all the extra larvae to make drones. Even though you're spawning 4 larvae 19 seconds sooner, that doesn't make up for the fact that you delayed early workers by so much, and wasted 7 seconds worth of larvae spawn time by accumulating 3 of them. The second problem is that it doesn't actually happen until well over 4 minutes into the game, when you're around 21 supply. By that time, you've done *something* to advance your build (probably a number of somethings), and it's almost always going to be better if that something, whatever it is happened 7 seconds faster. A hatchery that is 7 seconds faster will cut that larvae gap *really* quickly. If you want to 11 pool to get an army out faster, and can actually use all the extra larvae, meaning you haven't cut your economy too much to actually build what you were trying to build (if you have to wait for resources, then the faster larvae truly don't matter), then by all means, go for it. But don't kid yourself into thinking that you've somehow pulled off an economic advantage. You haven't. You've made an economic sacrifice. If that sacrifice was worth the end result, great. One parting thought: much of the sacrifice in 11pooling happens due to delaying drones 12-14. 12 pooling off a 9OL start gets the pool only 7 seconds later than 11 pooling, doesn't sacrifice any larvae spawn time, and doesn't fall as far behind economically as an 11 pool, so it has less catching up to do. To me, that seems like a much better tradeoff. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
Some things to take into account with those 7 seconds, is that when the spawning pool is done about 20 seconds earlier.14 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:46, 1329 minerals in excess, injection at 15/40 Pool completed at 3:04 and queen at 4:00 10 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:17, 849 minerals in excess, injection at 24/40 Pool completed at 2:35 and queen at 3:27 11 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:08, 804 minerals in excess, injection at 1/40 2700 total spendings. Pool completed at 2:45 and queen at 3:36 My point with using the 11 pool is the advantage it gives having a queen and pool out around 20 seconds earlier. Maybe the 14 pool can do some stuff 7 seconds faster, but the 11 pool can do other stuff 20 seconds faster, like lair and roach. That said it might not be able to make much use of it, unless it scouts and changes its build radically from it. Like going early roach or an even earlier lair for a fast muta build. The other point is that I usually stop making drones around the 4m30s mark, so the extra drones from the 11 pool vs the 14 pool becomes an economic advantage the rest of my game, which is usually about 7 minutes at most when everything goes as planned. I will come back after work and go a bit into detail about it, but yes, the extra drones has to be used at all times with the 11 and the 10 pool. The 7 seconds lost with the 12 pool seems a bit high, since 10 seconds has already been lost compared to the 10 pool. The 11 pool saves about 7 seconds of max larvae time compared to the 10 pool, and it gives some time with 11 drones a bit earlier than the 14 pool. Most of this income is probably lost on the extractor trick, but it has already been mentioned on this forum that 11 overlord with the extractor trick is closer to the 9 overlord 14 pool than the 10 pool is economically. The difference is less than 50 resources, but its there and evens out the few less resources the 10 pool has compared with the 14 pool early game. Late game, when you stop making new drones and do not expand around 4:30 into the game, then the 11 pool turns out as the better opening, which is why I like it as a one base push. If you saturate the 1 base all in, then the timing on when you have the army ready, and when you make the push loses much of its advantage since it comes 1-2 minutes later. The larvae spent on more drones being the main reason for that time lost. And in my experience it can be very critical that the attack does not happen later than 10 minutes into the game. That is often the turning point where the 14 pool and other regular builds like a 4 gate and 7 barracks BOs gains advantage. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 26 2010 14:18 caldor wrote: That is some good maths there Some things to take into account with those 7 seconds, is that when the spawning pool is done about 20 seconds earlier.14 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:46, 1329 minerals in excess, injection at 15/40 Pool completed at 3:04 and queen at 4:00 10 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:17, 849 minerals in excess, injection at 24/40 Pool completed at 2:35 and queen at 3:27 11 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:08, 804 minerals in excess, injection at 1/40 2700 total spendings. Pool completed at 2:45 and queen at 3:36 Replays please. Your timings are *way* off. 11pool is exactly 4 supply ahead of 14pool for 7 seconds, then it is 3 supply ahead for another 12 seconds. So you're either cherry-picking specific times (such as when 11pool just *barely* hits 34 supply, and when 14pool is just about to *leave* 34 supply), or you're simply doing something wrong. Here are my results. I built up to 20 drones, then spent the rest of the 34 supply on zerglings. Doing this minimizes the impact of building buildings, or having too many drones in the mineral lines, and still provides a valid comparison. 11 pool: 34 supply at 5:02 with 779 minerals, no excess larvae. 14 pool: 34 supply at 5:20 with 1070 minerals, and 1 excess larva. You did something wrong when you 14pooled. I'm assuming you actually built extra buildings on the 14pool to get it to hit 34 supply a full 40 seconds later. Not exactly an ideal testing methodology, if true. On October 26 2010 14:18 caldor wrote: My point with using the 11 pool is the advantage it gives having a queen and pool out around 20 seconds earlier. Yes. I agree. It does. And I painstakingly explained in great detail that those 20 seconds simply aren't good for an economic advantage, and why. They *can* be useful for an army advantage, but you're paying a price. Make sure the price is worth it. Just don't kid yourself by saying you're also getting an economic advantage, because you're not. On October 26 2010 14:18 caldor wrote: Maybe the 14 pool can do some stuff 7 seconds faster, but the 11 pool can do other stuff 20 seconds faster, like lair and roach. Roach, yes, as long as you're larvae-limited, not resource-limited. (Roaches tend to be resource limited rather than larvae limited, although you can just barely squeeze in 7 for a 7RR if you really want to cripple your economy, rather than delaying the 7th roach for 3-5 seconds and ending up with a *way* better economy) Lair, NO. Faster larvae doesn't mean faster money. It means faster larvae. That's it. You can't spend larvae to upgrade your lair. Buildings, NO. Unless you skip the queen, 14pool can get any building it wants (other than the spawning pool itself) faster than 11pool can, because you'll be limited by money, not larvae, and 14pool gets it faster. The other point is that I usually stop making drones around the 4m30s mark, so the extra drones from the 11 pool vs the 14 pool becomes an economic advantage the rest of my game, If you stop making drones at a specific time no matter what your lead up to that point is or what build you're doing, you're most certainly doing it wrong. The most extra drones you'll ever have from 11pool is 4, and that advantage only lasts for 20 seconds, which does not make up for the price you paid to get there. Honestly, this feels like you're stretching, trying to say "I would stop making drones after the 4 from the inject with 11pool, but wouldn't use my first 4 injected larvae to make drones when 14pooling, therefore 11pool has a 4 drone advantage". That's not an inherent advantage to 11pooling, that's you choosing an arbitrary point to stop making drones, and not making that point the same for two different builds. It's not even a valid point of comparison. Seriously, 11pool is NOT more economic than 14pool, no matter how you want to try to spin it. You don't have an economic advantage. Period. | ||
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
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TheSambassador
United States186 Posts
I noticed that you compared 14 pool with 11 overpool... which isn't the build that this thread seems to be talking about. This build is talking about 11 poolover... as in pool on 11, overlord on 10, then drones again. I don't really want to get into the same in-depth analysis that you did with 14 pool vs 11 overpool, but getting a pool right away at 11 DOES let you get Lair faster without skipping a queen. The plain fact is that if you're rushing lair, but still want a queen, the earlier you get your pool, the earlier you get your queen, and the earlier you can start lair. I've done this build a few times (sort of on accident when forgetting to build an overlord first.. lol), and it's always turned out surprisingly nicely. I get my pool up fast, and I don't *feel* any sort of economic hurt. Whether that's true needs a bit more in-depth analysis, which I don't really feel like atm (maybe tomorrow). | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
Its great. This is the feedback I did not get as much as on the other forum. I have done the 11 pool on accident and thinking it a mistake it really blew my build. I will have to run some tests on it with that opening, it should save at least 5 seconds on the pool. I will then compare it to drones lost compared to the 10 overlord, 10 pool.I have considered the double extractor trick, and it costs 7 minerals every time you do it, lost on canceling the extractor. also the time the drone spends away from minerals, which might end up being 10 minerals more lost. Being 5 minerals per drone. So 12 minerals lost each time doing the extractor trick. Since its done to get an economic advantage that might work very much against it. For a 5 RR though, I think it can be the way to go. I guess I have to agree with Skraag that the economic advantage might not be there much, unless you do not make those 2 extra drones for the 14 pool as would have with the 11 overlord -> pool. Then the attack gets a bit delayed of course, but the 14 pool keeps its economic advantage, although it will still be less than 100 minerals according to my calculations. I thought that through one more time, and 20 seconds earlier drones still = you have 2 more drones with the 11 pool compared to the 14 pool. Depending on when you stop making drones, the 11 pool still has the higher income during that period. If you expand around 4:30 and later in the game, the 11 pool will keep having this advantage, unless you for some reason end up having 3 or more larvae for a while. But I have to test with the 11 poolover. I failed to notice the difference in his build and mine, because I had come up with similar numbers, but I guess those numbers are the 10 overpool compared to the 14 pool. | ||
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nK)Duke
Germany936 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 26 2010 15:58 TheSambassador wrote: @Skrag: I noticed that you compared 14 pool with 11 overpool... which isn't the build that this thread seems to be talking about. Hmm. Never heard that term, so I assumed the OP said overpool backwards. But building the pool before the overlord wastes even more larva time, and puts you even further behind economically. In fact, it probably wastes enough larvae time that the earlier queen is not a benefit at all, leaving you sacrificing economy while not getting any larvae benefit. I don't really want to get into the same in-depth analysis that you did with 14 pool vs 11 overpool, but getting a pool right away at 11 DOES let you get Lair faster without skipping a queen. I'll run that tomorrow, it's late. I haven't tested this specific case, but if you're not cutting the queen, then you're almost certainly have to cut drones (even more than you already have), and I'd be willing to bet that 14pool gets the lair only *slightly* later anyway. Like 5 seconds maybe. Besides, if you're not going to use the larvae from the faster pool, then you shouldn't be shooting for the faster queen, and if you're going to race to lair, you're not going to be able to build much once you get there anyway. I've done this build a few times (sort of on accident when forgetting to build an overlord first.. lol), and it's always turned out surprisingly nicely. I get my pool up fast, and I don't *feel* any sort of economic hurt. Whether that's true needs a bit more in-depth analysis, which I don't really feel like atm (maybe tomorrow). Just cause you don't feel it doesn't mean it's not there. Building the overlord first is the only way to keep an 11 pool from sending your economy completely into the shithouse. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
Just cause you don't feel it doesn't mean it's not there. Building the overlord first is the only way to keep an 11 pool from sending your economy completely into the shithouse. I would agree, at least that was my thoughts and reasons not to go this way. But then it might still be closer to the 10 overpool. I also just expected poolover and overpool to be the same thing. But it makes sense. But just from running the numbers in my head, it makes sense that the 11 poolover might actually be rather close to the 10overpool in regards of larvae spawning time lost. Larvae spawns every 15 seconds, and I think with the 10 pool it ends up being a full larvae lost early game, but the queen comes out 10 seconds faster than the 11 overpool. Since its 40 seconds = 4 larvae from injections, then 10 seconds faster queen makes up for the 10 seconds. The reason I went 11 pool is that the earlier drone would get the whole thing closer economically to the 14 pool. Having an extra drone on the minerals these first 4 minutes, compared to the 10 pool. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
My only problem with this thread is the people claiming that 11pool has an economic advantage over 14 pool because of the earlier queen, which is blatantly (and provably) not true. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
On October 27 2010 01:32 Skrag wrote: 10 pool wastes more larvae than 11 pool, and 11 pool then overlord will waste more larvae than 11 overlord then pool. So yes, 11 pool is almost always better than 11 pool. My only problem with this thread is the people claiming that 11pool has an economic advantage over 14 pool because of the earlier queen, which is blatantly (and provably) not true. I might have to agree on the economy part after a long hard struggle. 11 poolover 2 gas: 2:44 - 3:14 17 extractor 2:49 - 3:19 17 extractor 1:27 - 2:31 pool done 2:32 - 3:22 queen done 4:30 - 244m 212g - 22 drones - 2 Gas - Inject 23/40 - 3 OL - 2350 spendings - Eggs: 1 OL 5:00 - 254m 328g - 23 drones - 2 Gas - Inject 7/40 - 4 OL - 2650 spendings - Eggs: 5 drone The OPs poolover tactic, is the same as my overpool tactic. Since the poolover has its pool 10 seconds earlier than the OP has his, which fits with him doing 11 overlord -> pool. Also the poolover is lacking more than 200 minerals compared to a similar 14 pool. Well at least I was right about doing the 11 pool that way the first time. I will try one last time with the 11 poolover doing 3x extractor trick. I doubt it will help though, since I think it will cost 12 minerals per extractor trick. But it will save all larvae loss I think. After that I will test with a build with two extractors, lair and other buildings placed in the areas fitting the build order best. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
11poolover 0:00 Start drone 7 - 2 larvae 0:15 larvae spawn - 3 larvae 0:18 Start drone 8 - 2 larvae 0:29 Start drone 9 - 1 larvae 0:33 Larva - 2 larvae 0:38 Start drone 10 - 1 larvae 0:48 Larva - 2 larvae 0:53 Extractor trick + Start drone 11 - 1 larvae 0:55 Drone 10 finish 1:03 Larva - 2 larvae 1:09 Drone 11 finish 1:18 Larva - 3 larvae 1:19 Pool start 1:33 Start overlord - 2 larvae 1:48 Larva - 3 larvae 1:58 Start drones 11, 12, 13 2:13 Larva - Start drone 14 Comparing to 14pool: gain 18 worker seconds on drone 10 gain 10 seconds on the first drone 11 lose 45 seconds on the second drone 11 lose 45 seconds on drone 12 lose 40 seconds on drone 13 lose 14 seconds on drone 14 So you lose 116 worker seconds, or approximately 91 minerals including the cost of the trick. In addition, this build stockpiles 3 larvae from 1:18 to 1:33, and again from 1:48 to 1:58, for a total loss of 25 larvae spawn seconds, which is almost 2 full larvae. You can mitigate this larvae cost by doing multiple extractor tricks (I think it takes 3 total, and there might still be some larvae wastage even then), but each extractor trick sucks away about 15 worker seconds (time for the worker itself to do the trick + the cost of the trick itself), so there's a definite tradeoff there. The queen comes out 34 seconds earlier, giving a maximum catch-up factor of 136 worker seconds, which looks better than overpool at first, but 11 overpool was only half a larvae behind up to the point where the first spawn larvae hit, while pool-over is behind almost 2 full larvae, which means you're 2 supply behind at every point up until 30, when the first inject kicks in. So yeah, pool-over gets the pool 15 seconds faster, but has to sacrifice even more economy to get there. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
14 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings.sc2replay 7:00 mark - 240m 292g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 0/40 - 5 OL - 2300e 675t 960a Tech: Nydus (ready to deploy), Lair, +1attack (151/160), ling speed Army: 26 lings, 5 ling eggs Timings: 3:06 pool done 3:57 queen 5:22 lair done 6:47 speed done 6:52 Nydus done 7:09 melee attack done 11 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool nyduslings.sc2replay 7:00 mark - 159m 372g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 21/40 - 5 OL - 2400e 675t 850a Tech: Nydus (Ready to deploy), lair, +1melee (7:13), ling speed (7:03) 32 lings, 1 ling eggs, 1 overlord egg Timings: 2:40 pool done 3:30 queen done 4:55 lair done 7:03 speed done 7:13 melee attack done 10 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 10 pool nyduslings.sc2replay 7:00 Mark - 180m 248g - 22 drones - 2 gas - inject 33/40 - 6 OL - 2450e 675t 800a - Army: 20 lings - 6 ling eggs Timings: Queen 3:30 Lair 4:57 Nydus 6:57 Speed 6:54 Melee 7:32 The 14 and the 10 pool had the minerals above the hatch, and I guess that is a bit of a disadvantage.The 10 pool suffer from having to wait on minerals now and then. Which is why the 11 pool did the lair even faster, but again, the placement on the map might have been better for the 11 pool. But please notice how the difference in ressources between the 14 pool and the 11 pool: 11 pool: 531 total ressources available + 3925 total resources spent = 4456 resources 14 pool: 532 total ressources available + 3935 total resources spent = 4467 resources So thats basically just doing the extractor trick that makes the difference. For some people I guess those 11 resources might be very important though, but to me its worth the 11 resources to have the queen almost 3 seconds earlier. I have to see if I did stuff wrong with the 14 pool though, and try it again with minerals below the hatch. So far the numbers seem to agree with the OP. But also with the fact that the 11 pool might not be better off economically, but what would happen if both builds ended up with 23 drones at the 7:00 mark? I wont find out today. But I did do another 14 pool Nyduslings, with minerals below the hatch. 14 pool Nyduslings - Second Try http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings2.sc2replay 7:00 - 55m 388g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 7/40 - 6 OL - 2400e 675t 950a Tech: Nydus (ready to deploy), Lair, +1attack, ling speed 28 lings, 5 ling eggs 3:02 pool done 3:52 queen done 5:19 lair done (might have been 2 seconds late) 6:24 speed done 6:46 melee attack done 6:47 Nydus done 14 pool: 443 total ressources available + 4025 total resources spent = 4468 total resources worth of zerg... biomass. 11 pool: 531 total ressources available + 3925 total resources spent = 4456 resources Yea, that did a wooping difference from 11 to 12 ressources difference in favor of the 14 pool. I guess the numbers are pretty solid. | ||
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sylph_uscm
United Kingdom7 Posts
gains 18 worker seconds on drone 10 gains 20 seconds on drone 11 Loses 23 seconds on drone 11 after starting the pool Loses 36 seconds on drone 12 Loses 35 seconds on drone 13 Loses 3 seconds on first drone 14 (the time between when the 14th worker finishes and the pool starts) Loses 3 seconds on second drone 14 (that was rebuilt after the pool) That works out to 43.4 minerals worth of lost mining time before 2:19. In addition, because the queen finishes faster, 11pool has to start the overlord 1 larvae sooner, which is worth 15 seconds of drone time, and the extractor trick itself costs around another 5 seconds, for another 14.5 minerals. Add in the cost of the trick itself, and we have a total of 67.9 minerals lost in the first 2 minutes. In addition, from 1:33 to 1:40, wasting 7 seconds worth of spawn time with 3 stockpiled larvae. Every drone made from 14 on loses that 7 seconds, for about 5 minerals worth of mining time each. This is all very important to know, because early minerals are much more important than later minerals, because they affect *all* of your timings, and 67.9 minerals equates to being about 7 seconds faster with whatever it was you were planning to do. A faster hatchery, a faster roach warren, faster upgrades. Because the 11 pool finishes the pool faster (duh), it does get an advantage in larvae spawn. Finishing 19 seconds faster means that you get to use that extra 4 larvae 19 seconds sooner (again, duh). If you make drones out of all of them, that's 76 seconds worth of worker time, which is equivalent to about 53 minerals, which means that an 11pool does come pretty close to catching up economically after the first spawn larvae finishes. There are a couple of problems though. The first is that you haven't actually caught back up completely, even if you use all the extra larvae to make drones. Hang on a sec, I don't think I quite follow... So the 11-pool is so many worker seconds in front, then so many behind, etc, for a total of 67 minerals... Right? Critically, it's also 7 seconds of larvae spawn time behind, which equates to 5 minerals per drone after that point... ok.... But when it gets it's spawn 19 seconds faster, it gets 76 drone seconds as an advantage, which isn't quite enough to catch up... got that. However, doesn't it get *another* spawn 19 seconds faster a bit later on, for another 76 drone seconds of mining? That's enough to catch up. Then it gets it's next larvae pop 19 seconds faster, pulling way ahead, right? I know, I know, you should have expanded and got a second hatch by that point, but even the second hatch part stays 19 seconds ahead in it's larva spawn. It's hard to keep measuring further and further into the future, but I found it a little 'unfair' that your test scenario stopped at 20 drones. If we'd been grabbing gas and saturating the mineral field, we'd be stopping at 30 drones, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the 10-pool would be ahead in, say, a 30-drones, then zerglings up to 50 kinda test. My point is - surely, that 19 seconds of faster spawn larva time should be counted more than once? | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 27 2010 05:56 sylph_uscm wrote: Skrag - Hang on a sec, I don't think I quite follow... So the 11-pool is so many worker seconds in front, then so many behind, etc, for a total of 67 minerals... Right? Critically, it's also 7 seconds of larvae spawn time behind, which equates to 5 minerals per drone after that point... ok.... But when it gets it's spawn 19 seconds faster, it gets 76 drone seconds as an advantage, which isn't quite enough to catch up... got that. However, doesn't it get *another* spawn 19 seconds faster a bit later on, for another 76 drone seconds of mining? That's enough to catch up. Then it gets it's next larvae pop 19 seconds faster, pulling way ahead, right? I know, I know, you should have expanded and got a second hatch by that point, but even the second hatch part stays 19 seconds ahead in it's larva spawn. It's hard to keep measuring further and further into the future, but I found it a little 'unfair' that your test scenario stopped at 20 drones. If we'd been grabbing gas and saturating the mineral field, we'd be stopping at 30 drones, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the 10-pool would be ahead in, say, a 30-drones, then zerglings up to 50 kinda test. My point is - surely, that 19 seconds of faster spawn larva time should be counted more than once? 11pool doesn't even get that first 76 second advantage until 34 supply. 14 pool will get the hatchery, and therefore the second queen, faster, which will likely more than make up for whatever gains might have been had from the second spawn larvae. | ||
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