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Omg, didnt expect to find this thread still active.
On topic: 11 pool was my opening of choice in all MUs back in the days when zerg suffered from early agression. After the zerg buffs I use it mainly on 2 ocasions:
1) zvz. It is great because:
- it is safe vs 6-7 pools. I dont scout with drones at all (add this to eco advantage). Good overlord placement allows to spot the incoming lings in time. And spotting his drone, ovies allows for a good guess to where his position is.
- it gets spawn larva 20 seconds faster which is crucial in ling bane wars. It is also very good vs fe builds vs which 14 pool is not good enough.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you an initiative, you put the pressure on the enemy which is worth a lot to me.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you faster 2 lings for scouting purposes. You just run around his base and see his tech with no casualties while he usually gets 6 or more lings just in case (while I make drones, eco advantage once again).
2) 5-6 roach rush. It gets the roaches 20 seconds faster, but with no ling speed.
In zvt I usually prefer 14 hatch for a number of reasons. In zvp I use 11 pool sometimes in a combination with gas steal to get 2 lings fast and put a threat of a runby with lings, but I like 14 pool into roach speedling rush much better (unless he expands behind cannons, and I dont feel like roach breaking him, I double expand, for which 14 pool is also better).
P.S. dont get overdrawn into math. The game is very dynamic. Try the openings in real combat and see how it feels, it gets much better results than raw math. As for the raw math you have a choice of around 100 minerals vs 20 faster pool + 2 larva, which is all short term in case you play standard with fe and mass drone. That is all you need to know.
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Run these two through http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/ and see the numbers: The 10 pool: (again the 11 pool should be better but not possible in that site as far as I know) Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02 Minerals per second 13 Gas per second: 3.78 Workers on minerals: 22 Workers on gas: 3, 3 The 14 pool: Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02 Minerals per second 11.5 Gas per second: 3.78 Workers on minerals: 17 Workers on gas: 3, 3
Look at the difference between the current minerals & minerals spent as well though.
The 10 pool seems to not spend the resources so effectively, plus why get an evo chamber??
The main use of an evo chamber that early is for a +1 roach push in ZvZ, or to wall off an EXPANSION HATCHERY.
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On October 29 2010 05:25 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 05:01 caldor wrote:I still cannot find a way to make the 11 pool get an actual advantage though, in economics. You shouldn't be able to find a way. It simply is not a more economic build. The faster larvae spawn allows it to *almost* catch up, but it will always be behind economically. Show nested quote +For one base all in, I guess having more larvae is a more useful advantage anyway, at least when only making 15 drones on minerals. Another thing to consider: practically nobody actually does a straight-up 14 pool. The only reason I've been using that it all is because it was the original point of comparison, with claims that an 11pool got an economic advantage over 14pool. I think even the 14pool-15hatch build has fallen out of favor recently. Gas-pool or hatch-pool builds are *much* more common. I might run a few more tests to see if I can get the tech timings worked out, but my initial tests of a 14gas-13pool build actually ended up with *more* lings than your 11pool at the 7 minute mark. I just couldn't quite get the tech timings right.
If you do manage to pump out more lings with the 14 pool build, I would like a replay. With the 14 pool having less larvae, I just do not see how that is possible. Unless you stop making drones at some earlier point. Also I did manage to have the Nydus and all the tech ready at 17 min, when I made those 2 extra drones that you made with the 14 pool, with the 11 pool.
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The 10 pool seems to not spend the resources so effectively, plus why get an evo chamber??
The main use of an evo chamber that early is for a +1 roach push in ZvZ, or to wall off an EXPANSION HATCHERY.
The evo chamber is my secret weapon to why I win most my games, because I come with speedslings that has +1 attack and later +2 attack. +1 attack = 20% higher damage for lings. Since I usually have around 30 lings 7 minutes into the game... that is often what tips the game in my favor. Helps me take out the other players army, and even if that I lose a bit more than the other player, then the important thing is to not let the other player mass an army.
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On October 30 2010 01:13 caldor wrote:
If you do manage to pump out more lings with the 14 pool build, I would like a replay. With the 14 pool having less larvae, I just do not see how that is possible.
Yeah, it didn't make a lot of sense to me, either, but I did it twice (32 lings + 5 ling eggs at the 7 minute mark), and I have no clue how. The nydus and +1 timings were quite a bit off though. They were both started, but I didn't have +1 finishing until 7:35 or so.
Unfortunately I didn't save the replays, and I'm sure they've been overwritten by now. 
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On October 29 2010 05:25 Skrag wrote:
That also is exactly as it should be. If you sacrifice economy for an all-in attack, a build that gives you a stronger attack should be better at attacking than a more economic build. You just need to make sure that the sacrifice you're making is worthwhile.
In this particular case, given that a 14pool gets the necessary tech quite a bit faster, I'd actually personally say that the sacrifice wasn't worthwhile, because your attack can happen faster. But realistically, you're sacrificing economy in *both* cases. You just sacrifice slightly more with the 11pool.
But if you were doing something like a pure roach all-in, 11pool is likely going to be superior due to the larvae advantage. But even there, I've done testing with the 7RR that seems to be very popular right now, and a later pool can come pretty close to the attack timing of an 11 pool, with a pretty sizable economic advantage.
As far as safety goes, researching ling speed early is something that is generally done for safety. Slow lings can't really do jack shit against much of anything. You delay ling speed for quite some time, while that was the first thing I researched in my 14pool tests.
I delay ling speed for an early lair and because it times better with melee attack +1 to tech that first. Ling speed is done fast. On top of that, in plat and diamond, when they scout they look for active researches as well. I try not to let them know I research ling tech on their first scouting. Later they do not seem to keep an eye on the pool much.
But all that said, back to the part about 11 pool having the economic advantage... yes I found that I let it go too early.
11 pool : Replay
7:00: Economy: 454m 648g E:4400 T:200 A:0 - 47 drones
Resources: 1102 Spent: 4600 Total: 5709
14 pool : Replay
7:00: Economy: 235m 748g E:4500 T:200 A:0 - 48 drones
Resources: 983 Spent: 4700 Total: 5683
I have been testing this back and forth most of the day. First the 11 pool came out on top, then it proved to be because I did something wrong with the 14 pool. So I used 2-3 more attempts to perfect the 14 pool and it came out almost 100 resources ahead. I went back to the 11 pool one more time and used what I had learned from the 14 pool attempts, and it gained its advantage yet again.
Seems being two larvae ahead actually does bring an economic advantage. Problem is that being on one base, it does not get to show, due to saturation and the early advantage of the 14 pool being hard to beat. But if anyone can make a replay of a 14 pool getting more than 5729 total resources at 7:00, then feel free to disprove me.
I fast expanded with both builds before 3:30.
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Interesting data point:
12pool
Same 2475 spending as the other 2. (calculating manually, because there seem to be discrepancies between the actual spent and what the spending tab says is spent)
215/156
28 lings = 700
6 overlords = 500
5 ling eggs (4 of which have less than 2 seconds til hatch) = 250
Total: 4296
50-ish resources behind the 11pool (which I don't quite understand, 12pool should be better or equal, not worse)
But basically 4 extra lings (2 eggs about to pop, 1 egg about as far along as the 1 egg in the 11pool)
But, it completes all the tech by 6:49, and I bet if I really worked at it, I could cut 10 seconds off that time, where the timings on the 11pool all felt so tight that there was very little cutting to do.
I truly don't understand why a 12pool ends up behind in economy, but if you're going for an all-in attack, faster is better anyway. I did start to pull workers off gas when I had enough, so that I'd always have enough minerals to spend on zerglings asap, so maybe that distorts it a little, since extra workers on minerals past 16 give diminishing returns.
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I think the 12 pool ends up behind in economy because the 11 pool gets an advantage before the overlord is done, and the 12 pool I expect is a 9 overlord 12 pool? Otherwise if its the double extractor trick then each extractor trick is costing those 12 resources each. Cost of canceling extractor and time off minerals. The 14 pool gets ahead economically compared to the 11 pool because it gets those 14 drones before the pool, and before the 11 pool wastes larvae spawn time that makes the 14 pool catch up to and get ahead of the 11 pool economically, and stays that way until the 11 pool eventually catches up around 4:30 maybe 4:37 where it second injections makes it a few drones ahead of the 14 pool.
But as we have found out with all these tests, that the few drones that late in the economic opening means less than 20 minerals difference, due to being close to the saturation point, and/or being close to where the check point is for the comparison.
So I do not think the 12 pools problem is those diminishing returns... alone anyway, I think its just the time lost never really getting ahead from the 11 pool economically. Because it mostly comes from the extra 2 early drones the 14 pool uses. In my theorycraft at least.
11 pool : Replay
4:30: Economy: 64m 128g E:2500 T:200 A:0 - 16 drones
Resources: 192 Spent: 2700 Total: 2892
7:00: Economy: 454m 648g E:4400 T:200 A:0 - 47 drones
Resources: 1102 Spent: 4600 Total: 5709
14 pool : Replay
4:30: Economy: 230m 168g E:2350 T:200 A:0 - 18 drones
Resources: 398 Spent: 2550 Total: 2948
7:00: Economy: 235m 748g E:4500 T:200 A:0 - 48 drones
Resources: 983 Spent: 4700 Total: 5683
But can you find a way to make the 14 pool more economic than I did with the 11 pool? I think I found the point where the 11 pool does become the economic opening.
I just added the 4:30 mark of how the two builds compares at that point, and that is just before the 11 pool begins getting more drones than the 14 pool. I am just showing that the same thing that usually happens in the other 11 vs 14 pool tests still happens in this one, in this one the 11 pool just gets to put those extra drones to full economic use with the early expansion, and getting the lead that I have been claiming it could, and should compared to the 14 pool.
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damn, I really wish you would test on a map that has a YABOT version. it's so much easier. :/
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On October 30 2010 18:21 Skrag wrote:
damn, I really wish you would test on a map that has a YABOT version. it's so much easier. :/
Sorry, but I play vs AI, and all the YABOT maps bugs on me. All 1v1 maps really. I would have prefered to do this on Jungle Basin. With YABOT, maybe Desert Oasis. I could just add YABOT to this map though. I get a depencies error when I try to start an single player vs AI map with all 1vs1 maps. That has really bugged me for two months now, I was hoping the last two patches that it was getting fixed, but no. And since I am saving the game after making the 11 pool and the 14 pool to save test time, I really prefer to use save games. Those few minutes gets important after testing the build more than 10 times.
I will try to see if I can use this build with the newest version of YABOT, or add YABOT to this map.
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My first 14pool nothing-but-queens-and-drones test put me at 4650E/200T and 505/372, for a total of 5727, with 46 drones and 5 more in production. I probably had 2 more extractors than you, but even with the extra extractors, the minerals at the expansion were pretty oversaturated. If I built the 4th gas earlier, I'm pretty sure I could do better than that, since I had 23 workers on minerals at the expansion, which is at least one too many.
I'm too tired to look back over your 14pool, but one thing for sure that you can do better (and that most people are doing when fast expanding) is building the second queen at the main rather than waiting for the expansion to finish. Of course, you can do that for the 11pool too, but the hatchery + faster second queen should give the advantage back to 14.
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Damn, I hadn't even thought of saving the game. Why didn't I think of that! lol
The biggest problem I have with not using yabot is that restarting for another test takes so damn long, because you have to get the right start position, which can involve a lot of restarting. (The top start positions on shakuras are not favorable to zerg, and give a slight economy hit because the larvae spawn opposite the minerals)
Saving the game obviously gets rid of that problem. I feel so stupid. lol
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Better execution: 49 drones, 320/560, 4800/200, total 5880. Still messed up the expansion mining though, not putting drones in geysers soon enough.
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Replays would still be nice  I want to know if you did something that I could use in the 11 pool.
I did not get the use my geysers at the expansion with the 11 pool build even though I had them finished just before the 7 min mark. So there is still room for improvement in my 11 pool build as well.
This is the Yabot code for the build. Roughly. I did it on Steppes of War but I tried making the AI follow this build and it seems it cannot follow it. I did not think he could make the AI follow a build order or I would have used Yabot more and earlier. This is using version 1.2.1
100 (i) Recorded Build | 11 | Author Name | This build order was recorded from your freestyle play. (/i) (s) 10 75 0 53 1 0 35 0 | 11 54 0 54 1 0 35 1 | 11 104 0 66 1 1 31 0 | 11 204 0 93 1 0 41 0 | 16 249 0 159 1 1 32 0 | 18 334 0 182 1 0 36 0 | 18 44 0 189 1 0 35 0 | 18 69 0 198 1 0 35 0 | 18 194 0 219 1 1 31 0 | 25 114 156 269 1 1 31 0 | 25 164 220 285 1 1 31 0 | 36 194 444 343 1 1 32 0 | 44 119 532 365 1 1 31 0 | 44 464 620 389 1 0 35 0 | 45 399 636 392 1 0 35 0 (/s)
I replaced brackets with () since the [] just changes the text. I will try to see if I can make it more AI friendly using the online BO maker for YABOT. It made the second hatch an inbase one.
Hmm, he does mention that he removed the Green Tea AI in 1.2.1 because last patch stopped his AI from working, and now its running with the Blizzard AI. I do not know how he still made it follow custom build orders though, since it does try to do so. Anyway, I cannot use Yabot for much I guess, so I will just go back to using the savegame.
I will be back in a bit with even more resources from the 11 pool... well I intend to at least
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On October 30 2010 19:04 Skrag wrote:
Better execution: 49 drones, 320/560, 4800/200, total 5880. Still messed up the expansion mining though, not putting drones in geysers soon enough.
So I have tried a few times with the 11 pool. My best resource score so far coming up to 5777. A replay of how you get 5880 would be nice though, because I cannot say if you calculate resources spent and so on in a different way, or how you got the 14 pool to get those extra minerals. And if it was another map, then the travel time to the expansion would / could become shorter. Even the placement on the map could influence that.
I will try a few more times just to see the outcome.
The closest I have gotten is:
7:00 - 4150 economy + 200 tech + 694m + 768g = 4350 spend + 1463 resources = 5813 total
47 drones - Replay of 11 pool FE
I will try with the 14 pool again to see if I can make it get to your numbers.
So far my top score with the 14 pool is 5720 total at 7:00. The 14 pool seems it could get ahead after 7 minutes into the game, if it makes a second queen right away after expanding. But making a queen at that point gives it some time with 5 larvae and not enough minerals to spend them.
I got it, I think. I had to use the 14 pool much the same way as the 11 pool. That is no extra queen or anything, and no extractors at expansion. Also saturating the first mineral line a bit more after the expansion is almost saturated:
7:00 - 4300 economy + 200 tech + 620m + 724g = 4500 spend + 1344 resources = 5844 total
45 drones
Replay of 14 pool FE
Which brings the whole thing back to the difference being less than 50 resources. Unless you can provide your replay Skrag, because you seem to have made a better use of the 14 pool fast expand.
All in all it seems the economic loss, with the 11 pool, whatever way you go. Fast economy one base, or fast expand, then when done right its certainly below 100 minerals in difference, and should be 50 minerals or less.
As I see it, that makes it less than the price of two zerglings or one drone. Seems well worth the early queen and being able to use more openings, while leaving the other player guessing, because you can go most ways with this.
There is the fast muta build, with that it seems to prefer a 14 pool, because you stop making drones where the 14 pool has the advantage, and that build really needs the early economic advantage to tech the spire in time, and still have minerals for 5 mutas those first 7 min. They might even be ready at 6:30. But thats not just an all in build, its a cheese. But I guess the same can be said about the roach rush build.
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On October 29 2010 23:31 Cheerio wrote:
Omg, didnt expect to find this thread still active.
On topic: 11 pool was my opening of choice in all MUs back in the days when zerg suffered from early agression. After the zerg buffs I use it mainly on 2 ocasions:
1) zvz. It is great because:
- it is safe vs 6-7 pools. I dont scout with drones at all (add this to eco advantage). Good overlord placement allows to spot the incoming lings in time. And spotting his drone, ovies allows for a good guess to where his position is.
- it gets spawn larva 20 seconds faster which is crucial in ling bane wars. It is also very good vs fe builds vs which 14 pool is not good enough.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you an initiative, you put the pressure on the enemy which is worth a lot to me.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you faster 2 lings for scouting purposes. You just run around his base and see his tech with no casualties while he usually gets 6 or more lings just in case (while I make drones, eco advantage once again).
2) 5-6 roach rush. It gets the roaches 20 seconds faster, but with no ling speed.
In zvt I usually prefer 14 hatch for a number of reasons. In zvp I use 11 pool sometimes in a combination with gas steal to get 2 lings fast and put a threat of a runby with lings, but I like 14 pool into roach speedling rush much better (unless he expands behind cannons, and I dont feel like roach breaking him, I double expand, for which 14 pool is also better).
P.S. dont get overdrawn into math. The game is very dynamic. Try the openings in real combat and see how it feels, it gets much better results than raw math. As for the raw math you have a choice of around 100 minerals vs 20 faster pool + 2 larva, which is all short term in case you play standard with fe and mass drone. That is all you need to know.
Hey, its you! The OP. I am the guilty one of necroing this thread. I began experimenting with 10 pooling last month, and I came to this forum because this is supposedly where most the tactical and mathematical stuff comes from regarding what the best openings are and all that. And I came upon this thread after joining. You discovered the amazing diverseness of the 11 pool 4 months before me, even though I did play a bit in beta. I was experimenting a bit in beta, but ended up reading somewhere the 14 pool was the best economic opening for non rush tactics.
But since the economic loss is so small with the 11 pool, I now use it all the time. Even fast expanding the loss is still less than 100 minerals it seems. And the benefits seems to be tactical advantage in so many ways. I just won 3 ZvZ in row using a new opening I thought of, because I usually lose all my ZvZ games. I make the 11 pool, the queen, and then place 2-4 spinecrawlers fast and tech to mutas. Since I always go double extractors I get 5-6 mutas around 8 minutes in the game, having closed off my mineral field with the pool and spine crawlers. Usually catches them by surprise.
Metalopolis ZvZ 11 pool fast mutas.SC2Replay
ZvZ 11 pool fast Mutas.SC2Replay
Delta Quadrant ZvZ 11 pool fast Mutas.SC2Replay
Some of my latest replays. I had to macro in one of them, but I guess that happens sometimes. He did not see my expansion before late game, and was very focused on destroying my base. He claimed I was lucky even after I told him I won because I outmacroed him That match was the Metalopolis one. Another one I had to dodge a lot of banelings with my drones, but after that I surprised him with my fast Mutas.
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I always figured 11 Overpool to be a defensive build if you scout Forge first or a 6 Pool or an economically sound build with options for applying early pressure since you'll pretty much be going for early lings and Queens.
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On October 31 2010 00:25 caldor wrote: I had to macro in one of them, but I guess that happens sometimes. He did not see my expansion before late game, and was very focused on destroying my base. He claimed I was lucky even after I told him I won because I outmacroed him That match was the Metalopolis one.
You mean Delta Quadrant. On metalopolis you faced a very poorly executed 6 pool.
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On October 31 2010 06:23 Sidus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 00:25 caldor wrote: I had to macro in one of them, but I guess that happens sometimes. He did not see my expansion before late game, and was very focused on destroying my base. He claimed I was lucky even after I told him I won because I outmacroed him That match was the Metalopolis one. You mean Delta Quadrant. On metalopolis you faced a very poorly executed 6 pool.
Lol I never even noticed. Sending out the lings to scout... I hope he was not playing the top of his game, and that he was not in platinum league. But then he might have been like me once, just doing a six pool because of not knowing how to play ZvsZ with so few playing this race. But at least I was rather good at six pooling. Was a relief when it finally stopped working though, but hey, it got me into diamond sadly enough.
With the build I did, it would not even have mattered if those lings came into my base. Since a queen was up and a Spine was on its way. His last option would be to go for my workers, but then they are the real threat against the lings until my spine is up.
On October 31 2010 04:26 Conrose wrote:
I always figured 11 Overpool to be a defensive build if you scout Forge first or a 6 Pool or an economically sound build with options for applying early pressure since you'll pretty much be going for early lings and Queens.
An economically sound build... lol, you havent paid any attention to this thread have you? I'm sorry if the 50 minerals lost is not that important to me, Id rather keep my options open.
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I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link.
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EPT
