EPTI'm not one for arguing that a 10-pool is a good idea economically speaking, but these threads make me realise just how small the economy hit of a 10-pool is, and seems quite minor compared to the large degree of flexibility of the 10-pool. I dunno though, I've been 10-pooling for a month or so with great success.
11 poolover vs 14 pool - Page 3
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sylph_uscm
United Kingdom7 Posts
I'm not one for arguing that a 10-pool is a good idea economically speaking, but these threads make me realise just how small the economy hit of a 10-pool is, and seems quite minor compared to the large degree of flexibility of the 10-pool. I dunno though, I've been 10-pooling for a month or so with great success. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
On October 27 2010 06:18 Skrag wrote:11pool doesn't even get that first 76 second advantage until 34 supply. 14 pool will get the hatchery, and therefore the second queen, faster, which will likely more than make up for whatever gains might have been had from the second spawn larvae. But that kind of build still fails to properly test this for a 1 base all in, and if you expand the first 4 min, then the OP already stated the 14 pool would be the better choice. 11 pool is when going all in. Any comments on the replays and numbers I just posted? I spent all day on it... almost... and they seem to hold up. I supplied the replays so you can try to find errors in my test. But in both builds I went for a 21 drone count, while making other buildings. The 14 pool ends up only having a 12 resources advantage... So if I did this again and tried to have 24 drones in the end, I guess it might even be in favor of the 11 pool. This is all when teching early and all that. Getting lair for each build asap. Same with queen. at 7 min, the goal was to have Nydus, ling speed, +1 melee attack, lair, and lots of zerglings. 14 pool http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings2.sc2replay 11 pool http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool nyduslings.sc2replay Can you explain why the difference in resources is only 12 at the 7 min mark? | ||
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Utena
United States32 Posts
1) You cut drones at 15 mineral drones, which is not very standard play. You had 21 total, and one full base is 30. 14 pool in a different build can easily have one fully saturated base at 7:00 2) Early double extractor isn't that standard either. I ran a quick test using the speedling expand build. at 7:00 I han have 31 drones, 14 lings, speed, +1 attack, and Lair. I'll try fast Nydus next.. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
But right now with 14/15 hatch being so easy and safe, I'm not sure 14 pool is worth going over 10/11 pool or a 14/15 hatch, unless u get mannered. Untill a patch changes that.. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
On October 27 2010 06:36 Utena wrote: caldor: I just got done watching your replays: 1) You cut drones at 15 mineral drones, which is not very standard play. You had 21 total, and one full base is 30. 14 pool in a different build can easily have one fully saturated base at 7:00 2) Early double extractor isn't that standard either. I ran a quick test using the speedling expand build. at 7:00 I han have 31 drones, 14 lings, speed, +1 attack, and Lair. I'll try fast Nydus next.. Thanks. But about how the 14 pool can saturate, yes it can easily saturate at that point, but the 11 pool will saturate even faster. But when doing any kind of one base all in, the strongest use to make of those is attacking around 5-8 minutes into the game. After that point a quick expand or some counter tech might make the whole build worthless since you only have a mediocre army and income. Of course the full saturation might help recovering, or to set up the proper defenses. I aim to make sure I can hurt the other player, and in the most hurtful ways, leaving most tech options open for an early push of most kinds, with this build. Its most suited for lings the way I go though, and later maybe mutas, since I stop droning so early. This way seems like a good balance of both, with some flexibility. But its also because if you do not go early gas, then saturation will be reached, before the 11 pool gets that economic advantage. It can also just be a larvae advantage, but I aim a bit for both. If I changed the build to aim for 17 drones on minerals, it might very well end up even more in favor of the 11 pool from my calculations. | ||
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PositiveZero
United States39 Posts
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
On October 27 2010 07:25 PositiveZero wrote: Anyone who does an 11 pool against a Terran is going to get roflstomped... I don't see any viable way that this would beat a wall off even with roaches as long as it is properly scouted. Not in my experience. Also the problem is scouting it, because the Nydus can be placed anywhere with an overlord. When scouted, they will see 2x extractors and a lair being made. I try to not make lings before 4 min or later in the game, which makes it up for grabs what I am going to push with. As I already wrote the economic disadvantage is gone at the 7 min mark, unless going weighing it against an early expand. But its true that this build is strongest against protoss and Zerg. Against Terran the fast expand is probably better. I would like to see someone fast expand and then stop a big MMM one base all in push though. | ||
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Utena
United States32 Posts
If you're going to cut drone production at ~24 food, then yeah, I'll bet 11 poolover is pretty good for a 1 base all in (And cutting your econ before 1 base saturation is pretty all-in). ANd maybe that's a viable strategy, but I't incorrect to say that the economic advantage dissapears against a standard 14 pool. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
On October 27 2010 10:05 Utena wrote: I'm pretty sure you're wrong, if you're looking at long term economic lead. 11 poolover I seem to be about 3-5 food behind speedlign expand or other such builds, in terms of drone/ling food count. in 11 poolover I couldn't even spend all my larve when they popped, even at ~6:00. Speedling Expand I'm 300 minerals ahead and have an expansion down, that I couldn't afford in 11 poolover. If you're going to cut drone production at ~24 food, then yeah, I'll bet 11 poolover is pretty good for a 1 base all in (And cutting your econ before 1 base saturation is pretty all-in). ANd maybe that's a viable strategy, but I't incorrect to say that the economic advantage dissapears against a standard 14 pool. 14 pool http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings2.sc2replay 11 pool http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool nyduslings.sc2replay Then disprove it. Two replays, both doing the same build, but ends up with only 12 resources differeince, the 11 pool having a higher supply count, while only being 12 resources behind. Yes, I cut supply early, because I want this early tech attack to be done at 7 min into the game, and that is in the test build, in an actual game it will probably be more like 8 min into the game due to scouting drone and making a spine crawler. But if the 14 pool is a stronger economy build, it it worth doing when being less defended early game? 12 resources buys.... nothing. But I do admit that the 14 pool has the speed, melee attack +1 and the Nydus a bit earlier. Proper scouting is what is needed against this kind of build, problem is scouting properly how? The queen is out around 30 seconds earlier, the lair is done earlier. More lings done at the 7 min mark, with the same amount of drones. I win quite a few games against players who try to saturate before I do, because it leaves them behind in their army count. So I usually wait for their attack if my scouting does not show a cheese build, or maybe a heavy turtle build. Defend, then counter attack with Nydus, because that is usually the best way to go. @ Skrag When I do a 11 pool and the 14 pool the difference between the two is 22 seconds. 11 overpool: Queen done 3:30 14 pool: Queen done 3:52 At the cost of 7 seconds with max larvae. 11 pool done: 2:40 14 pool done: 3:02 These are the timings from the two replays I just posted. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 27 2010 05:00 caldor wrote: This took most my day, but I came up with some numbers, its my Nyduslings tactic, that has gotten me into the Diamond league... for a while. 14 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings.sc2replay 7:00 mark - 240m 292g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 0/40 - 5 OL - 2300e 675t 960a Tech: Nydus (ready to deploy), Lair, +1attack (151/160), ling speed Army: 26 lings, 5 ling eggs I might have to watch your replay and see if I see anything obvious, because by 7:00, I was able to get 23 drones, 24 lings, 5 ling eggs, 5 overlords, 1 overlord egg, and all the other stuff, with 240/220, for a total of 4685 resources. There's also a miscalculation somewhere in your resource counts, because by my count, your 14 pool had a total of 4075 spent, for a total of 4607, and your 11 pool spent 4025, for a total of 4556. I screwed up and built 2 too many drones, but was only 2 lings short (1 drone worth) of your 6pool, and would have had 2 extra lings instead of 2 less had I not overbuilt drones. Obviously that will give fewer resources, but it would have been the last two drones that were zerglings instead, so the impact probably wouldn't have been too big, especially since at that point you're into diminishing returns on mining workers. However, and this is very important, not only was I 129 total resources ahead of your 11pool, but I was able to finish the nydus and melee +1 by 6:45, a full 24 seconds before you finished both. That's the power of early drones. You just get stuff faster. Also, I couldn't quite work out the lair and +1 attack timings, but with a 14 gas/ 14 pool build, I was able to hit 32 lings, 6 overlords, and 21 drones by the 7 minute mark, *and* have 5 more ling eggs just started. This also allows you to get ling speed quite a bit earlier just in case you need it, but doing that makes lair and +1 timing *very* tricky, and I just didn't take the time to work out the exact timings, although I did come within 10 seconds of finishing both at 7:00. To be honest, I have no idea why that seems to be so much better at the 7 minute mark, because the pool comes slightly slower, so it should be at a slight disadvantage larvae-wise. It's possible that the larvae spawn times just work out better so that your queen-spawned larvae don't ever block a normal larva spawn, since it seems that anytime the hatchery has more than 3 larvae, the 15 second spawn timer starts over from zero. I'm not positive on that, but it seems that way from what I've seen. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 27 2010 14:09 caldor wrote: @ Skraag When I do a 11 pool and the 14 pool the difference between the two is 22 seconds. In the 14pool replay, your pool was 2-3 seconds later than it could have been. I dunno if you were just as slow with the 11pool, but 2 seconds doesn't really mean a lot when there's that much slop. It's possible that I had a little bit of slop in my timings too. Some other stuff after scanning that replay: In the 14pool, you also wasted 10 seconds of larvae spawn time around 22-24 supply. In fact, you wasted at least a few seconds of larvae spawn time on every inject, by waiting for the queen to have enough energy to inject before using the larvae. I'm assuming you did the same thing in the 11pool replay though, too, so that shouldn't matter a ton. All these little things explain why my 14pool was ahead of yours. Also, it looks like the replay I just watched was from your second attempt, and the total resource count for that one is 4668, and you were also able to get nydus and +1 by 6:45 rather than 7:09. | ||
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
On October 27 2010 18:47 Skrag wrote: In the 14pool replay, your pool was 2-3 seconds later than it could have been. I dunno if you were just as slow with the 11pool, but 2 seconds doesn't really mean a lot when there's that much slop. It's possible that I had a little bit of slop in my timings too. Some other stuff after scanning that replay: In the 14pool, you also wasted 10 seconds of larvae spawn time around 22-24 supply. In fact, you wasted at least a few seconds of larvae spawn time on every inject, by waiting for the queen to have enough energy to inject before using the larvae. I'm assuming you did the same thing in the 11pool replay though, too, so that shouldn't matter a ton. All these little things explain why my 14pool was ahead of yours. Also, it looks like the replay I just watched was from your second attempt, and the total resource count for that one is 4668, and you were also able to get nydus and +1 by 6:45 rather than 7:09. 3:02 pool done 3:52 queen done 5:19 lair done (might have been 2 seconds late) 6:24 speed done 6:46 melee attack done 6:47 Nydus done 14 pool: 443 total ressources available + 4025 total resources spent = 4468 total resources worth of zerg... biomass. 11 pool: 531 total ressources available + 3925 total resources spent = 4456 resources True, I did a second attempt at the 14 pool because I knew some timings were off. But you count 4668 total resources? I will have to look at it again. I do remember going over it twice, and I got the numbers to be 4025 total resouces spend and 443 total resouces available both times at the 7:00 mark. When I look for the timings, I wait for the second where they building gets its command icons to mark its finish. Same with queen, but she is ready from the point her animation is up. I have thought about the larvae and when to make them into drones. I guess the lack of queen energy might even be there to give time to make those larvae into drones. I could try redoing it when I get home. I was rather banged up after doing this same build about 10-15 times yesterday. Since I had almost the same result after the 2nd attempt, I assumed I had it somewhat right. How soon did you finish the pool in your attempt? From my calculations, I finished it earlier with my 2nd 14 pool attempt. 3:02 pool done - 3:52 queen done. | ||
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Titnium
13 Posts
Protocol: 0:00-7:00 window, Hatchery at 18 supply to avoid saturation, 1/2 drones maynard'd and a queen before the hatch finishes. No drones pulled from gas (to exaggerate any gas superiority) Only drones, overlord and queens made. Results:Minerals Mined---Gas Mined---Harvesters Active---Food 10 Pool----------4690---------------340-------------52-------------------58/60 14 Pool----------4670---------------516-------------47-------------------57/60 Interpreting Results: It appears that the 10 pool is ahead on larvae, if only by a few seconds, but most notably, it is also very close on economy. The 14 pool is ahead on gas by a significant amount, but I think an earlier gas could be worked into the 10 pool build to take care of that without sacrificing much on minerals. I think that if the test were say, to 7:10, The harvester/food count would have equalized because of the way the larvae syncs up. I believe this longer (7:00) test along with the above, shorter tests tell us the full story: That at differing points in time, either build may be ahead on mineral production or larvae production, but as time goes on, the net effect is nil. Either build is able to enter the midgame with a similar economy and unit production. Builds Used: 10 Pool---------9 Overlord 10 Overlord----14 Pool 10 Gas Trick--13 Gas 14 Queen-------15 Overlord 18 Hatch-------16 Queen 17 Overlord----18 Hatch 18 Gas----------21 Queen 20 Queen------ | ||
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mjamz
Germany6 Posts
I tried some builds and tracked the time when each worker pops out, and when worker morphed to buildings. This was done for around 5 minutes of the game. Then i saw that at the moment of queen larvae injection the producing of worker was heavily influenced. So i tracked the time of the injections and calculated the total working time of all workers up to this point. The 11-pool started with injections at around 270 seconds (4:30). Weaknesses in the data: 1) Inaccuracies: I believe minor inaccuracies in the exact time code of the worker activities are not too important, because it doesn't influence the total worker time very much. If we look at 23 workers that amass 3200 ressources/ worker-seconds (the weakest build: the 11 poolover, not 11 overpool!), inaccuracies of up to 2 seconds per worker (far more than I would assume realistically) could add up to 46 ressources in total, if they would not cancel each other out (-> gaussian bell curve). That would be about 1.5 % of the total ressources. 2) end-time: some workers morph to buildings or do extractor tricks. This stops or reduces their working time, in case of extractor trick I assumed 6 seconds for the trick and 4 seconds (more than neccessary to be on the safe side) for additional travel time to perform the trick. The timing of a building is not necessary linked to the drone of the same line! It can be morphed by another drone! For example: 11 overpool: 227th second: the 20th drone pops out. 229th second: the 2nd hatch is started. I calculated 2 worker seconds for this drone, but it is not necessary that exactly this drone must build the hatch. In this case another drone went to the location of the natural and morphed to hatch. This doesn't influence the total working-time of all drones. I stated this in the same data line to faciliate calculations for me. BUT the timings are nevertheless accurate (see 1.). Here is my data: THE 14-POOL start-time, #worker, (end-time,) worktime 0 6 1620 22 7 248 37 8 233 50 9 220 76 10 194 93 11 177 93 12 177 102 13 168 114 14 (pool@118) 4 142 15 128 147 16 123 157 17 (ext@174) 17 189 18 81 205 19 (hatch@218) 13 222 20 48 ### queen rdy @ 235 ### 243 21 27 251 22 19 265 23 15 (279 24) (### 2nd larvae spawning ###) (297 25) (297 26) (297 27) ( ### hatch rdy @ 320 ###) The total ressources up to 270 seconds would be 3512. THE 11-OVERPOOL start-time, #worker, (end-time,) worktime 0 6 1620 22 7 248 36 8 234 47 9 (extractor-trick@56 = -10 working time) 213 58 10 212 72 11 (pool@96) 24 120 12 150 128 13 142 135 14 135 142 15 128 151 16 119 168 17 (ext@181) 13 199 18 71 211 19 59 ### queen rdy @ 212 ### 227 20 (hatch@229) 2 242 21 28 258 22 12 (273 23) (273 24) (273 25) (273 26) (296 27) (311 28) (### hatch rdy @ 328 ###) Total ressources at 270th second = 3410. Now it seems that the 14-pool is around 100 ressources ahead. But we have to account for the ealier injections which we haven't done yet. The 11-pool is around 20 -25 seconds earlier with its queen and her injections and it can afford to use them to produce workers with them (the 11-poolover can not for example use its earlier injections optimally). So we have 20 seconds x 4 workers = 80 working-seconds/ressources. The 11-overpool closes up very much at 270th second/ 4:30. I tried to play it more economically and squeeze some more workers in, and managed to get 3419 worker-seconds/ressources out of the build. It may be neccessary to delay the extractor a little (not more than 30 seconds) to be able to spawn the 2nd queen in time. At last one can say that economically both builds are comparable, especially after 4:30, when spawned larvae kick in. The 11-overpool has the other advantage, that it is more flexible and doesn't tell early enemy scouts whether you go eco or for a push. With its earlier pool and queen it is a little bit more efficient at defending and a little bit more flexible at reacting to early pushes or cheese. I also tested other builds and it turned out, that 11 poolover has no advantages, neither with double extractor trick nor with one extractor trick. The generate 3237 (2ET) and 3163 (1ET) ressources and it's not possible for them to use up the early queen's larvae in time as they lack the minerals. The 14-hatch-13-pool surprisingly didn't do too well too, compared with the susceptibility to early rushes (or I expected more). It generated 3404 ressources. (Strangely it works well in my anti-terran build..). The 16-hatch-15-pool outperformed the other builds with 3645 ressources at 270th second. Its hatch was just 12 seconds later than the 14-hatch-13-pool one's. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
@ Titnium - Do you have total spendings for those builds? My logic tells me 10 pool - overlord - extractor trick ought to loose at least one larvae in larvae spawn time. With all spendings, and minerals and gas added up, we will get to know how many minerals and gas has been gathered and spent in comparison to each build at 7:00. I like the fast expand idea, and it also seems to be very viable, and without more than 100 resources lost to have the earlier pool and queen, while also having those extra larvae. I am testing to see how much of a difference it will make to go for 26 pure economy supply. That is only 1 queen and drones in the first 26 supply, to see if it helps the 14 pool or the 11 pool more. Problem is finding a way to make the best timings for the 11 pool, because it needs the gas to be done at the right times, so that the lair can be started earlier. Of course I can also just see how close I can get to the 14 pool, and not try to make the lair those 20 or so seconds earlier. The first two attempts: 11 pool 7 min: (26 economy) Economy: 124m 368g - e2500 t675 a800 492 resources + 3975 spent = 4476 total 14 pool 7min: (26 economy) Economy 360m 344g - e2500 t675 a650 704 resources + 3825 spent = 4529 total 4529 - 4476 = 53 difference in favor of the 14 pool. The 11 pool is 150 = 6 lings ahead though, and this time I had both of the builds finish all the techs at 7:00. The techs being: ling speed, melee+1 and nydus. I will test again Friday, I have a day off then. So far it seems that it might be in favor of the 14 pool to go past 24 supply still making drones. That is after the time the lair is on its way and techs are as well. Amazing how small the difference is: (but these two builds didnt have all tech done either of them, at 7:00 the 14 pool was closer though) 11 pool: 7m (24 economy) Replay Economy: 159m 372g - 2400e 675t 850a 531 resources + 3925 spent = 4456 total 14 pool 7m (24 economy) Replay Economy: 55m 388g - 2400e 675t 950a 443 total resources + 4025 spent = 4468 total (I double checked these numbers again) Difference being 12 resources difference in favor of the 14 pool. My 11 pool might have had too much lost larvae time though because of gas being put down too early, I am not sure. But it does take some tinkering with the build that is a bit tight when it has to get the lair earlier than the 14 pool, while still getting the same techs at 7:00 and a few more lings. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 28 2010 02:51 caldor wrote: 11 pool: 7m (24 economy) Replay Economy: 159m 372g - 2400e 675t 850a 531 resources + 3925 spent = 4456 total 14 pool 7m (24 economy) Replay Economy: 55m 388g - 2400e 675t 950a 443 total resources + 4025 spent = 4468 total (I double checked these numbers again) Ok, I was calculating resources spent incorrectly, adding the cost of the first 6 drones you make, but the comparisons should still be the same, since I did it equally for both. But this should be the true total resources @7 min based on your replays. Both builds: 21 drones = 750 (you start with 6, so only spent the cost of 15 drones) Queen = 150 Spawning pool = 250 2 extractors = 150 Nydus = 200/200 Evo chamber = 125 +1 melee = 100/100 Ling speed = 100/100 Lair = 150/100 Total: 2475 14pool 55/388 28 lings = 700 6 overlords = 500 5 ling eggs = 250 Total: 4368 11pool 159/372 32 lings = 800 5 overlords = 400 1 overlord egg = 100 1 ling egg = 50 Total: 4356 Still a 12 resource difference, so the actual numbers don't matter. When I did the 14 pool, I was slightly ahead of this, at 4385, but I also had built two extra drones (and am a little surprised that 2 drones only make about a 20 mineral difference, but they would have been pretty late drones). Again, that's probably not particularly relevant, because if my 14 pool is ahead of yours, then my 11 pool would likely be ahead of yours as well. Hmm. Except that my 14 pool was way more than 12 resources ahead of my 11 pool. At the end of all this, I would say that yeah, if you stop drone production for a 1-base all-in, 11pool isn't *that* far behind 14pool economically. Still, though, the 14pool is slightly ahead, and finishes your desired set of things (ling speed, nydus, and +1 attack) at 6:45 instead of 7:08. That's nothing to shake a stick at, imo. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
I am also amazed at how few resources it really comes down to with those extra drones. I guess it is because they are getting closer to saturation, and closer to the 7 minute point, so the difference is cut down a lot because of it. I still cannot find a way to make the 11 pool get an actual advantage though, in economics. For one base all in, I guess having more larvae is a more useful advantage anyway, at least when only making 15 drones on minerals. I do stop at 22 drones total at one point, which leaves 16 drones on minerals for a while, but that drone becomes the Nydus. Another possible difference is the 14 pool placing tech buildings earlier simply because it can afford it. That takes out drone time as well, but I guess that is also part of the reason why it gets it techs a bit earlier. So it does seem the 11 pool might be the build with the least risk involved, but it does still have to scout of course, and that is where I really think its advantage can kick in, because it can do just about any opening quite fast. If the other player is going for a early expand, this build usually makes sure they regret trying that. At least when scouted properly and making the build into early push. I have sometimes expanded to rich mineral fields early though, for the simple reason as to being a distraction. It pays for itself with 6 workers added to it quite fast I think, and you get to know what units the other player will be using. Was especially useful in a match where the other player went banshee, so I placed a few Spores and punished him for trying that with a Nydus and those lovely lings. But it might not work so well with the 11 pool. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On October 29 2010 05:01 caldor wrote:I still cannot find a way to make the 11 pool get an actual advantage though, in economics. You shouldn't be able to find a way. It simply is not a more economic build. The faster larvae spawn allows it to *almost* catch up, but it will always be behind economically. For one base all in, I guess having more larvae is a more useful advantage anyway, at least when only making 15 drones on minerals. That also is exactly as it should be. If you sacrifice economy for an all-in attack, a build that gives you a stronger attack should be better at attacking than a more economic build. You just need to make sure that the sacrifice you're making is worthwhile. In this particular case, given that a 14pool gets the necessary tech quite a bit faster, I'd actually personally say that the sacrifice wasn't worthwhile, because your attack can happen faster. But realistically, you're sacrificing economy in *both* cases. You just sacrifice slightly more with the 11pool. But if you were doing something like a pure roach all-in, 11pool is likely going to be superior due to the larvae advantage. But even there, I've done testing with the 7RR that seems to be very popular right now, and a later pool can come pretty close to the attack timing of an 11 pool, with a pretty sizable economic advantage. As far as safety goes, researching ling speed early is something that is generally done for safety. Slow lings can't really do jack shit against much of anything. You delay ling speed for quite some time, while that was the first thing I researched in my 14pool tests. Another thing to consider: practically nobody actually does a straight-up 14 pool. The only reason I've been using that it all is because it was the original point of comparison, with claims that an 11pool got an economic advantage over 14pool. I think even the 14pool-15hatch build has fallen out of favor recently. Gas-pool or hatch-pool builds are *much* more common. I might run a few more tests to see if I can get the tech timings worked out, but my initial tests of a 14gas-13pool build actually ended up with *more* lings than your 11pool at the 7 minute mark. I just couldn't quite get the tech timings right. | ||
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caldor
Denmark41 Posts
But other than that, the most major advantage of this build is how many players like to time their builds with the setup of other races. A 11 pool will make them think something cheesy might be on the way, the early double gas as well. The best part is when they do not find a roach warren, they probably expect mutas. All in all, it should keep a good scouter on their toes, and they will probably feel like they need to attack, but I will keep scouts out and make sure I get some spines in place before the attack hits, and then counter attack with Nydus. But I do not know what it takes to get the economic advantage for the 11 pool. Maybe at 4m30s there has to be a few lings to defend against scouts and to scout + ling speed. Then the fast expand which probably also has to happen at the same time as the 14 pool. Unless it would make no sense due to the 14 pools economic advantage, then the 14 pool should do it earlier of course. I have the day off, so I will see what I can come up with. I have tested a few times, and the early expand seems to take some good micro with the 11 pool, or good macro I guess it becomes. It is doable with the 11 pool and at most, 200 resources is lost. That is if the early expand is done too early, but then it still probably pays for itself and makes up for at least some of the lost when its done. The way I did is was to make the queen for the expansion before the expansion got done: Economy - Early: 1 extractor at 16 drones, Expand hatch at 3:30, 2 queens before its done. Second extractor after second hatch and queen is on its way. Goal: Build up to 55 drones and 2 queens. One drone to make a spine after 8min in the game I thought I had found the way to prove the 11 pool to be economic, but then I found that I had saturated the 14 pool without making extractors, leaving at least 6 drones doing nothing there. Main problem is the micro it takes and the timing, because the 11 pool does end up losing larvae spawn time. With perfect timing, maybe it does gain a small economic advantage for a short while, but not enough to get ahead it seems, and it will take so much micro that scouting will be impossible unless you are Fruitseller. So its still at the conclusion that the OP came up with, at least in my opinion. For a one base all in, 11 pool, otherwise 14 pool. Early Mutas with one base all in seems best with the 14 pool as well btw, since you can then have 5 mutas the first 7 min. Almost at 6:30. With the less expensive units and tech though, which is all tier 1 units, the 11 pool will still hold up better I think. Since it is better protected early against scouts and cheese. And as they say, knowledge is power. | ||
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