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Note: the thread name is supposed to be 11 overpool vs 14 pool. Sorry.
I've done a little test and here are the results.
11 overpool:
pool done at: 2:44
4 additional larva finished morphing as drones at: 4:37
At 4:37 mark you have: 23 drones, 224Minerals (effectively +200 as drones), 244Gas, 4 overlords, 2 lings
14 pool:
pool done at: 3:03
At 4:37 mark you have: 19 drones, 485Minerals, 268Gas, 3 overs and 1 morphing, 2 lings
About test:
- Same location so drone travel distances not an issue.
- 2 gas were done somewhere at 17 drone mark to offset the saturation point
- 14 pool was done with no gas trick
- no scouting in both builds
Results:
- Basicly it is somewhere near 100Minerals for 14 pool against 2 larva in 11 overpool. But at 4:37 you can have 4 additional drones with 11 pool which at mining speed of 1mineral/second will get you 80 minerals in 20 seconds (the delay between the pools). So the build will break even at that mark. On the other hand the 14 pool gives you faster 2 hatchery, so both the 100 minerals advantage and 2 larva advantage are very short term. Economically both builds are nearly identical.
- 11 overpool gives you 19 seconds faster lings and queen to kill the scouter.
- 11 overpool is much safer.
- 14 pool allows for fe with no production cutting.
- it may look as 14 pool is so much better economically because you get additional larva and spend money on them, so the difference may look like 290 minerals or more.
- 11 pool is very good with 1 base play. Going 1 base roach gydra gives you just enough larva for constant production. You would need to cut for fe though.
So generally if you want to fe go 14 pool, if you want safe play, 1 base play or early agression go 11 overpool.
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Did you accidently hit "Make new thread" instead of "Reply"?
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So generally if you want to fe go 14 pool, if you want safe play, 1 base play or early agression go 11poolover.
Uh, and this was new news when? I mean, thanks for doing the math, but common sense tells you exactly the same thing, earlier pool = more aggression but less eco...
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On May 17 2010 20:48 Darkalbino wrote:
Did you accidently hit "Make new thread" instead of "Reply"?
What? This is worth it's own thread.
I always appreciate some qualitative analysis of the game. It's surprising to me that a 11 pool would end up with more drones, but I'm assuming you just pumped drones nonstop. Usually when people go 11 pool or 10 pool, they use the first 3 larva for lings so that will definitely negatively affect economy.
I guess the most important thing I get from this is that...if you happen to go 10 or 11 pool and decide to not pressure with lings (maybe w/ proper scouting), you are not too bad off on your economy.
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its good that he did the test, but this BO has been known by most zerg players alr. 14 pool into 15 hatch.
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ehm i m a newb, so can you tell me what you mean with
"overpool" ??
thanks for help
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overlord -> pool on the same supply count
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so its about like:
7 Drone
8 Drone
9 Drone
10 Extractor Trick-> drone
11 Pool
10 Extractor Trick-> drone
11 Ovi
??
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Is extractor trick worth doing?
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you get those 11/10 drone count, in other way its not possible i think
or i dont understand those overpool thing :D
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you make extractor for just enough time to make another drone, then you cancel extractor... you end up with 11/10 supply! so you get to make 1 more drone before you have to make overlord
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On May 17 2010 23:27 epik640x wrote:
Is extractor trick worth doing?
Wondering the same thing. Is
10 extractor
9 drone
9 (extractor cancel)
10 overlord
10 drone
11 drone
12 drone
worth doing over:
10 overlord
10 drone
11 drone
12 drone
If you are going 13 or 14 pool and then 15 hatch?
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On May 18 2010 00:07 KaiserJohan wrote:Wondering the same thing. Is 10 extractor 9 drone 9 (extractor cancel) 10 overlord 10 drone 11 drone 12 drone worth doing over: 10 overlord 10 drone 11 drone 12 drone If you are going 13 or 14 pool and then 15 hatch?
This was settled a while ago.
11/10 --> 14 pool = 9/10 ovie to 14 pool
10 ovie is inferior, but I still do it to keep even numbers. It's like a 6 mineral difference.. nothing to cause people to go crazy and always extractor trick at a supply cap.
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On May 17 2010 22:30 Nitron wrote:
its good that he did the test, but this BO has been known by most zerg players alr. 14 pool into 15 hatch.
Nitron, the test was something similar to a scientific experiment where you test something against the standard. Obviously, 14pool is seen as standard. His findings are that his build is more effective.
The extractor trick is worth doing most of the time. It isn't worthwhile when the ovie is about to spawn. I believe you lose 6 minerals on the trick and around 2 seconds of the drone 'idle' time to gain a drone around 25 seconds faster.
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Wow... This is exactly what I came to this forum to argument for. Exactly. I even came to the same results to the second, two more drones around 4:36. Anyone here who argues against the 14 pool without a fast expand makes for a better economy?
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/708321516?page=6
Here is a thread about my findings I made on the EU forums. Sure was hard to convince anyone at all about this tactic. Most people seem to think 14 pool is the way to go in any situation except maybe ZvZ. For me, its 11 pool all the way. I started out doing a 10 pool, but you get more drones earlier, and less max drones on the hatch with the 11 pool.
Also the build order:
10 extractor - drone - cancel extractor
11 overlord
11 pool
16 queen
and do whatever from here, just make sure to keep larvae count below 3 at all times or the advantage will be wasted compared to the 14 pool. The queen should be out around 30 seconds earlier than with the 14 pool. The queen itself is a very good anti rush unit.
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This thread hasn't been posted in since May, but in response to your battle.net forums post, 14 pool is slightly better than 10 pool economically, assuming you get a queen ASAP and only make drones.
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Yes, I am sorry for reviving this thread. Thank you for the fast response though, also I was just surprised at how quickly this thread went silently away. But Cheerio really did have all the facts laid out right there. And several months before I even considered the early queen would actually make for an advantage. I did play around with it in beta, but I guess not enough since I have vowed to the 14 pool as the economic build for a one base push until 1½ month ago or so.
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On October 25 2010 10:29 Mainland wrote:
This thread hasn't been posted in since May, but in response to your battle.net forums post, 14 pool is slightly better than 10 pool economically, assuming you get a queen ASAP and only make drones.
Someone just told me about how you actually did not say what I thought you said. You are saying the 14 pool is better than the 10 pool for a one base build order? My point with the thread on the other forum is that the 14 pool is only stronger the first few minutes, but 4m37 seconds into the game, having 2-4 more larvae gives the 10 and 11 pool the economic advantage. Up until that point, yes there is a difference of less than 100 resources as Cheerio has already been pointed out.
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No more responses? Well, my build is to go for 24-29 drones and then pump out the offensive units. 6 of these drones will be on gas. This way I can make lots of lings, or roaches, or just focus on lings and have gas ready to go for mutas if needed. I upgrade as I need to, but I usually get the lair, attack +1 and ling speed in that order. Going for an early hatch with the 14 pool getting to the point where you have a strong attack ready takes longer, teching takes longer and the main problem as I see it, is being those 2-3 larvae behind the 11 pool BO. I will come up with some more numbers to support these 11 pool tactics. To me they seem much more flexible, I get to the drone count I want at least 30 seconds faster, and I am ready for just about anything those first 5 minutes of the game.
I found an easy way to show the numbers with help from this site  The build order calculator, it is pure awesomeness:
http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/
Here is a two builds to set up against each other:
The 14 pool:
9 Overlord
14 Spawning Pool
17 Extractor > transfer 3
16 Queen > Spawn Larvae
18 Extractor > transfer 3
18 Overlord
18 Evolution Chamber
18 Spawn Larvae
22 overlord
28 spawn larvae
34 spawn larvae
5:00 checkpoint
The 10 pool: (I cannot find a way to make it do the 11 pool, since the extractor trick does not seem to be programmable atm)
10 Overlord
10 Spawning Pool
16 Queen > Spawn Larvae
18 Extractor > transfer 3
18 Extractor > transfer 3
18 Overlord
18 Evolution Chamber
18 Spawn Larvae
22 overlord
28 spawn larvae
34 spawn larvae
5:00 checkpoint
Run these two through http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/ and see the numbers:
The 10 pool: (again the 11 pool should be better but not possible in that site as far as I know)
Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02
Minerals per second 13
Gas per second: 3.78
Workers on minerals: 22
Workers on gas: 3, 3
The 14 pool:
Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02
Minerals per second 11.5
Gas per second: 3.78
Workers on minerals: 17
Workers on gas: 3, 3
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I have been using the 10 pool as my economic build since about 2 months ago. IMO not only did I find it to be the best economic build (gaining about 30 seconds for 4 faster drones in my personal tests), but also doubles as the safest anti rush build and best creep-spreading build (2 queens early). I just time my expansion around saturation of my main.
Now you're saying 11 pool is better? I'll have to try that then... =]
Yeah everyone else is playing zerg wrong, eh? hah
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A fellow 10 pooler I started out with the 10 pool and did some tests. Basicly the build was:
10 overlord
10 pool
16 queen
And just branch out from there. Then most people on the EU forum just flamed this idea, although I proved the early larvae advantage, and I thought that would make perfect sense. Apparently not. So I came here because people really swear to this forum as the source of all SC2 wisdom, and I have to admit it is true. The one who made this thread had reached all my conclusions... 5 months before me!?! I am a bit amazed. I guess most people left this go unnoticed, which is why I am reviving it.
But before finding this thread, and the reason I ever tried the 11 pool, was because of other thread about why the 9 overlord > 14 pool is a better economic opening than 10 overlord > 14 pool. It went to find that the 10 extractor trick, 11 overlord actually proved to be very close to doing the 9 overlord - 14 pool in early economics. So I thought why not use this for my 10 pool idea?
Since quite a few people on the EU SC2 Battle Net forum still cannot see how the 10 and 11 pool can become an economic advantage over the 14 pool, I came here and joined this forum. I was about to make a thread and noticed I am locked for 3 days. So I tried looking for a somewhat similar topic... and this came up. I am amazed at how the OP had these maths, that I have just spent over a month doing, in the beta. Kudos to him.
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14 pool gets you several hundred more minerals than 10 pool, but the 10 pool gets you about 2 extra larvae.
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On October 26 2010 05:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:
14 pool gets you several hundred more minerals than 10 pool, but the 10 pool gets you about 2 extra larvae.
Several hundred? No, but it does get almost 100 more. Check the OP again, he did the math. But focus on the 11 pool though and assume some early teching the first 5 min, like lair, double extractor, evolution chamber and / or roach warren. Along with upgrades for these like +1 melee attack, +1 armor or specific unit upgrades.
Also the point with this build is that the 14 pool starts out with a few extra minerals, but 5 minutes into the game the 11 pool has the higher income, and is ready to make offense, and even have been ready for quite a few seconds.
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Also the point with this build is that the 14 pool starts out with a few extra minerals, but 5 minutes into the game the 11 pool has the higher income
This is simply not true. It doesn't have a higher income. It *is* about 1.5 larvae ahead, but those larvae come at the cost of *always* being behind economically. So, you can make offensive or defensive units faster (if you can afford them, that is, since you're behind economically), but 14pool will get non-larvae stuff (buildings, upgrades, lair, etc) faster.
Warning: ridiculously detailed analysis ahead.
There's a pretty serious problem with just comparing builds by where they are at time X. For example, whether the original poster intentionally cherry-picked or not, he just happened to pick a time where it looks like you're ahead 4 workers. At that exact point in time, yes the build is ahead 4 workers. But that doesn't mean the 11pool has a higher income, and in fact it doesn't, due to the price that it paid to get those 4 larvae faster.
Here's a detailed list of what happens in the first 2 minutes of a 14pool and an 11overpool (trick, then overlord, then pool):
14pool
0:00 Start drone 7 - 2 larvae
0:15 larvae spawn - 3 larvae
0:18 Start drone 8 - 2 larvae
0:29 Start drone 9 - 1 larvae
0:33 Larva - 2 larvae
0:48 Larva + Start overlord - 2 larvae
0:56 Start drone 10 - 1 larvae
1:03 Larva - 2 larvae
1:13 Drone 10 finish + Start drone 11/12 - 0 larvae
1:18 Larva - start drone 13 1:19
1:29 Drone 11/12 finish
1:33 Larva - start drone 14
1:37 Drone 13 finish
1:48 Larva - 1 larvae
1:50 Drone 14 finish
1:53 Pool start
1:59 Start drone 14 - 0 larvae
2:03 Larva - 1 larvae
2:16 Drone 14 finish
11pool
0:00 Start drone 7 - 2 larvae
0:15 larvae spawn - 3 larvae
0:18 Start drone 8 - 2 larvae
0:29 Start drone 9 - 1 larvae
0:33 Larva - 2 larvae
0:38 Start drone 10 - 1 larvae
0:48 Larva - 2 larvae
0:53 Extractor trick + Start drone 11 - 1 larvae
0:55 Drone 10 finish
1:03 Larva - 2 larvae
1:05 Start overlord - 1 larvae
1:09 Drone 11 finish
1:18 Larva - 2 larvae
1:33 Larva - 3 larvae
1:34 Pool start
1:40 Start drone 11 - 2 larvae
1:48 Start drone 12 - 1 larvae
1:55 Larva + Start drone 13 - 1 larvae
1:57 Drone 11 finish
2:02 Start drone 14 - 0 larvae
2:05 Drone 12 finish
2:10 Larva - 1 larvae
2:12 Drone 13 finish
2:19 Drone 14 finish
The first 33 seconds, up to starting the 9th drone, are the same for both starts.
When comparing the 11 pool to the 14pool, the 11pool:
gains 18 worker seconds on drone 10
gains 20 seconds on drone 11
Loses 23 seconds on drone 11 after starting the pool
Loses 36 seconds on drone 12
Loses 35 seconds on drone 13
Loses 3 seconds on first drone 14 (the time between when the 14th worker finishes and the pool starts)
Loses 3 seconds on second drone 14 (that was rebuilt after the pool)
That works out to 43.4 minerals worth of lost mining time before 2:19.
In addition, because the queen finishes faster, 11pool has to start the overlord 1 larvae sooner, which is worth 15 seconds of drone time, and the extractor trick itself costs around another 5 seconds, for another 14.5 minerals.
Add in the cost of the trick itself, and we have a total of 67.9 minerals lost in the first 2 minutes.
In addition, from 1:33 to 1:40, wasting 7 seconds worth of spawn time with 3 stockpiled larvae. Every drone made from 14 on loses that 7 seconds, for about 5 minerals worth of mining time each.
This is all very important to know, because early minerals are much more important than later minerals, because they affect *all* of your timings, and 67.9 minerals equates to being about 7 seconds faster with whatever it was you were planning to do. A faster hatchery, a faster roach warren, faster upgrades.
Because the 11 pool finishes the pool faster (duh), it does get an advantage in larvae spawn. Finishing 19 seconds faster means that you get to use that extra 4 larvae 19 seconds sooner (again, duh). If you make drones out of all of them, that's 76 seconds worth of worker time, which is equivalent to about 53 minerals, which means that an 11pool does come pretty close to catching up economically after the first spawn larvae finishes.
There are a couple of problems though. The first is that you haven't actually caught back up completely, even if you use all the extra larvae to make drones. Even though you're spawning 4 larvae 19 seconds sooner, that doesn't make up for the fact that you delayed early workers by so much, and wasted 7 seconds worth of larvae spawn time by accumulating 3 of them.
The second problem is that it doesn't actually happen until well over 4 minutes into the game, when you're around 21 supply. By that time, you've done *something* to advance your build (probably a number of somethings), and it's almost always going to be better if that something, whatever it is happened 7 seconds faster. A hatchery that is 7 seconds faster will cut that larvae gap *really* quickly.
If you want to 11 pool to get an army out faster, and can actually use all the extra larvae, meaning you haven't cut your economy too much to actually build what you were trying to build (if you have to wait for resources, then the faster larvae truly don't matter), then by all means, go for it.
But don't kid yourself into thinking that you've somehow pulled off an economic advantage. You haven't. You've made an economic sacrifice. If that sacrifice was worth the end result, great.
One parting thought: much of the sacrifice in 11pooling happens due to delaying drones 12-14.
12 pooling off a 9OL start gets the pool only 7 seconds later than 11 pooling, doesn't sacrifice any larvae spawn time, and doesn't fall as far behind economically as an 11 pool, so it has less catching up to do. To me, that seems like a much better tradeoff.
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That is some good maths there Some things to take into account with those 7 seconds, is that when the spawning pool is done about 20 seconds earlier.
14 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:46, 1329 minerals in excess, injection at 15/40
Pool completed at 3:04 and queen at 4:00
10 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:17, 849 minerals in excess, injection at 24/40
Pool completed at 2:35 and queen at 3:27
11 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:08, 804 minerals in excess, injection at 1/40 2700 total spendings.
Pool completed at 2:45 and queen at 3:36
My point with using the 11 pool is the advantage it gives having a queen and pool out around 20 seconds earlier. Maybe the 14 pool can do some stuff 7 seconds faster, but the 11 pool can do other stuff 20 seconds faster, like lair and roach. That said it might not be able to make much use of it, unless it scouts and changes its build radically from it. Like going early roach or an even earlier lair for a fast muta build.
The other point is that I usually stop making drones around the 4m30s mark, so the extra drones from the 11 pool vs the 14 pool becomes an economic advantage the rest of my game, which is usually about 7 minutes at most when everything goes as planned. I will come back after work and go a bit into detail about it, but yes, the extra drones has to be used at all times with the 11 and the 10 pool. The 7 seconds lost with the 12 pool seems a bit high, since 10 seconds has already been lost compared to the 10 pool. The 11 pool saves about 7 seconds of max larvae time compared to the 10 pool, and it gives some time with 11 drones a bit earlier than the 14 pool. Most of this income is probably lost on the extractor trick, but it has already been mentioned on this forum that 11 overlord with the extractor trick is closer to the 9 overlord 14 pool than the 10 pool is economically. The difference is less than 50 resources, but its there and evens out the few less resources the 10 pool has compared with the 14 pool early game.
Late game, when you stop making new drones and do not expand around 4:30 into the game, then the 11 pool turns out as the better opening, which is why I like it as a one base push. If you saturate the 1 base all in, then the timing on when you have the army ready, and when you make the push loses much of its advantage since it comes 1-2 minutes later. The larvae spent on more drones being the main reason for that time lost. And in my experience it can be very critical that the attack does not happen later than 10 minutes into the game. That is often the turning point where the 14 pool and other regular builds like a 4 gate and 7 barracks BOs gains advantage.
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On October 26 2010 14:18 caldor wrote:That is some good maths there Some things to take into account with those 7 seconds, is that when the spawning pool is done about 20 seconds earlier. 14 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:46, 1329 minerals in excess, injection at 15/40 Pool completed at 3:04 and queen at 4:00 10 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:17, 849 minerals in excess, injection at 24/40 Pool completed at 2:35 and queen at 3:27 11 pool: 34 supply (with queen) at 5:08, 804 minerals in excess, injection at 1/40 2700 total spendings. Pool completed at 2:45 and queen at 3:36
Replays please. Your timings are *way* off. 11pool is exactly 4 supply ahead of 14pool for 7 seconds, then it is 3 supply ahead for another 12 seconds. So you're either cherry-picking specific times (such as when 11pool just *barely* hits 34 supply, and when 14pool is just about to *leave* 34 supply), or you're simply doing something wrong.
Here are my results. I built up to 20 drones, then spent the rest of the 34 supply on zerglings. Doing this minimizes the impact of building buildings, or having too many drones in the mineral lines, and still provides a valid comparison.
11 pool: 34 supply at 5:02 with 779 minerals, no excess larvae.
14 pool: 34 supply at 5:20 with 1070 minerals, and 1 excess larva.
You did something wrong when you 14pooled. I'm assuming you actually built extra buildings on the 14pool to get it to hit 34 supply a full 40 seconds later. Not exactly an ideal testing methodology, if true.
On October 26 2010 14:18 caldor wrote:
My point with using the 11 pool is the advantage it gives having a queen and pool out around 20 seconds earlier.
Yes. I agree. It does. And I painstakingly explained in great detail that those 20 seconds simply aren't good for an economic advantage, and why. They *can* be useful for an army advantage, but you're paying a price. Make sure the price is worth it. Just don't kid yourself by saying you're also getting an economic advantage, because you're not.
On October 26 2010 14:18 caldor wrote:
Maybe the 14 pool can do some stuff 7 seconds faster, but the 11 pool can do other stuff 20 seconds faster, like lair and roach.
Roach, yes, as long as you're larvae-limited, not resource-limited. (Roaches tend to be resource limited rather than larvae limited, although you can just barely squeeze in 7 for a 7RR if you really want to cripple your economy, rather than delaying the 7th roach for 3-5 seconds and ending up with a *way* better economy)
Lair, NO. Faster larvae doesn't mean faster money. It means faster larvae. That's it. You can't spend larvae to upgrade your lair. Buildings, NO. Unless you skip the queen, 14pool can get any building it wants (other than the spawning pool itself) faster than 11pool can, because you'll be limited by money, not larvae, and 14pool gets it faster.
The other point is that I usually stop making drones around the 4m30s mark, so the extra drones from the 11 pool vs the 14 pool becomes an economic advantage the rest of my game,
If you stop making drones at a specific time no matter what your lead up to that point is or what build you're doing, you're most certainly doing it wrong. The most extra drones you'll ever have from 11pool is 4, and that advantage only lasts for 20 seconds, which does not make up for the price you paid to get there. Honestly, this feels like you're stretching, trying to say "I would stop making drones after the 4 from the inject with 11pool, but wouldn't use my first 4 injected larvae to make drones when 14pooling, therefore 11pool has a 4 drone advantage". That's not an inherent advantage to 11pooling, that's you choosing an arbitrary point to stop making drones, and not making that point the same for two different builds. It's not even a valid point of comparison.
Seriously, 11pool is NOT more economic than 14pool, no matter how you want to try to spin it. You don't have an economic advantage. Period.
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(Pst...You should Double Extractor trick)
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@Skrag:
I noticed that you compared 14 pool with 11 overpool... which isn't the build that this thread seems to be talking about.
This build is talking about 11 poolover... as in pool on 11, overlord on 10, then drones again.
I don't really want to get into the same in-depth analysis that you did with 14 pool vs 11 overpool, but getting a pool right away at 11 DOES let you get Lair faster without skipping a queen. The plain fact is that if you're rushing lair, but still want a queen, the earlier you get your pool, the earlier you get your queen, and the earlier you can start lair.
I've done this build a few times (sort of on accident when forgetting to build an overlord first.. lol), and it's always turned out surprisingly nicely. I get my pool up fast, and I don't *feel* any sort of economic hurt. Whether that's true needs a bit more in-depth analysis, which I don't really feel like atm (maybe tomorrow).
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This forum really has lots of number crunchers Its great. This is the feedback I did not get as much as on the other forum. I have done the 11 pool on accident and thinking it a mistake it really blew my build. I will have to run some tests on it with that opening, it should save at least 5 seconds on the pool. I will then compare it to drones lost compared to the 10 overlord, 10 pool.
I have considered the double extractor trick, and it costs 7 minerals every time you do it, lost on canceling the extractor. also the time the drone spends away from minerals, which might end up being 10 minerals more lost. Being 5 minerals per drone. So 12 minerals lost each time doing the extractor trick. Since its done to get an economic advantage that might work very much against it. For a 5 RR though, I think it can be the way to go.
I guess I have to agree with Skraag that the economic advantage might not be there much, unless you do not make those 2 extra drones for the 14 pool as would have with the 11 overlord -> pool. Then the attack gets a bit delayed of course, but the 14 pool keeps its economic advantage, although it will still be less than 100 minerals according to my calculations. I thought that through one more time, and 20 seconds earlier drones still = you have 2 more drones with the 11 pool compared to the 14 pool. Depending on when you stop making drones, the 11 pool still has the higher income during that period. If you expand around 4:30 and later in the game, the 11 pool will keep having this advantage, unless you for some reason end up having 3 or more larvae for a while.
But I have to test with the 11 poolover. I failed to notice the difference in his build and mine, because I had come up with similar numbers, but I guess those numbers are the 10 overpool compared to the 14 pool.
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lol poo lover
User was warned for this post
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On October 26 2010 15:58 TheSambassador wrote:
@Skrag:
I noticed that you compared 14 pool with 11 overpool... which isn't the build that this thread seems to be talking about.
Hmm. Never heard that term, so I assumed the OP said overpool backwards.
But building the pool before the overlord wastes even more larva time, and puts you even further behind economically. In fact, it probably wastes enough larvae time that the earlier queen is not a benefit at all, leaving you sacrificing economy while not getting any larvae benefit.
I don't really want to get into the same in-depth analysis that you did with 14 pool vs 11 overpool, but getting a pool right away at 11 DOES let you get Lair faster without skipping a queen.
I'll run that tomorrow, it's late.
I haven't tested this specific case, but if you're not cutting the queen, then you're almost certainly have to cut drones (even more than you already have), and I'd be willing to bet that 14pool gets the lair only *slightly* later anyway. Like 5 seconds maybe.
Besides, if you're not going to use the larvae from the faster pool, then you shouldn't be shooting for the faster queen, and if you're going to race to lair, you're not going to be able to build much once you get there anyway.
I've done this build a few times (sort of on accident when forgetting to build an overlord first.. lol), and it's always turned out surprisingly nicely. I get my pool up fast, and I don't *feel* any sort of economic hurt. Whether that's true needs a bit more in-depth analysis, which I don't really feel like atm (maybe tomorrow).
Just cause you don't feel it doesn't mean it's not there. Building the overlord first is the only way to keep an 11 pool from sending your economy completely into the shithouse.
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Just cause you don't feel it doesn't mean it's not there. Building the overlord first is the only way to keep an 11 pool from sending your economy completely into the shithouse.
I would agree, at least that was my thoughts and reasons not to go this way. But then it might still be closer to the 10 overpool. I also just expected poolover and overpool to be the same thing. But it makes sense. But just from running the numbers in my head, it makes sense that the 11 poolover might actually be rather close to the 10overpool in regards of larvae spawning time lost. Larvae spawns every 15 seconds, and I think with the 10 pool it ends up being a full larvae lost early game, but the queen comes out 10 seconds faster than the 11 overpool. Since its 40 seconds = 4 larvae from injections, then 10 seconds faster queen makes up for the 10 seconds. The reason I went 11 pool is that the earlier drone would get the whole thing closer economically to the 14 pool. Having an extra drone on the minerals these first 4 minutes, compared to the 10 pool.
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10 pool wastes more larvae than 11 pool, and 11 pool then overlord will waste more larvae than 11 overlord then pool. So yes, 11 pool is almost always better than 11 pool.
My only problem with this thread is the people claiming that 11pool has an economic advantage over 14 pool because of the earlier queen, which is blatantly (and provably) not true.
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On October 27 2010 01:32 Skrag wrote:
10 pool wastes more larvae than 11 pool, and 11 pool then overlord will waste more larvae than 11 overlord then pool. So yes, 11 pool is almost always better than 11 pool.
My only problem with this thread is the people claiming that 11pool has an economic advantage over 14 pool because of the earlier queen, which is blatantly (and provably) not true.
I might have to agree on the economy part after a long hard struggle.
11 poolover 2 gas:
2:44 - 3:14 17 extractor
2:49 - 3:19 17 extractor
1:27 - 2:31 pool done
2:32 - 3:22 queen done
4:30 - 244m 212g - 22 drones - 2 Gas - Inject 23/40 - 3 OL - 2350 spendings - Eggs: 1 OL
5:00 - 254m 328g - 23 drones - 2 Gas - Inject 7/40 - 4 OL - 2650 spendings - Eggs: 5 drone
The OPs poolover tactic, is the same as my overpool tactic. Since the poolover has its pool 10 seconds earlier than the OP has his, which fits with him doing 11 overlord -> pool. Also the poolover is lacking more than 200 minerals compared to a similar 14 pool. Well at least I was right about doing the 11 pool that way the first time.
I will try one last time with the 11 poolover doing 3x extractor trick. I doubt it will help though, since I think it will cost 12 minerals per extractor trick. But it will save all larvae loss I think. After that I will test with a build with two extractors, lair and other buildings placed in the areas fitting the build order best.
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Here's the 2-minute breakdown for 11 pool-over
11poolover
0:00 Start drone 7 - 2 larvae
0:15 larvae spawn - 3 larvae
0:18 Start drone 8 - 2 larvae
0:29 Start drone 9 - 1 larvae
0:33 Larva - 2 larvae
0:38 Start drone 10 - 1 larvae
0:48 Larva - 2 larvae
0:53 Extractor trick + Start drone 11 - 1 larvae
0:55 Drone 10 finish
1:03 Larva - 2 larvae
1:09 Drone 11 finish
1:18 Larva - 3 larvae
1:19 Pool start
1:33 Start overlord - 2 larvae
1:48 Larva - 3 larvae
1:58 Start drones 11, 12, 13
2:13 Larva - Start drone 14
Comparing to 14pool:
gain 18 worker seconds on drone 10
gain 10 seconds on the first drone 11
lose 45 seconds on the second drone 11
lose 45 seconds on drone 12
lose 40 seconds on drone 13
lose 14 seconds on drone 14
So you lose 116 worker seconds, or approximately 91 minerals including the cost of the trick.
In addition, this build stockpiles 3 larvae from 1:18 to 1:33, and again from 1:48 to 1:58, for a total loss of 25 larvae spawn seconds, which is almost 2 full larvae. You can mitigate this larvae cost by doing multiple extractor tricks (I think it takes 3 total, and there might still be some larvae wastage even then), but each extractor trick sucks away about 15 worker seconds (time for the worker itself to do the trick + the cost of the trick itself), so there's a definite tradeoff there.
The queen comes out 34 seconds earlier, giving a maximum catch-up factor of 136 worker seconds, which looks better than overpool at first, but 11 overpool was only half a larvae behind up to the point where the first spawn larvae hit, while pool-over is behind almost 2 full larvae, which means you're 2 supply behind at every point up until 30, when the first inject kicks in.
So yeah, pool-over gets the pool 15 seconds faster, but has to sacrifice even more economy to get there.
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Yea. I came to some of the same conclusions as I already posted. Way too many minerals and larvae lost on the 11 pool - overlord. Extractor tricks wont help, it will only end up making it worse, wasting time to collect minerals for the extractor trick. I am now testing a full opening that uses lair and lair buildings with the 14 pool vs the 11 pool.
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This took most my day, but I came up with some numbers, its my Nyduslings tactic, that has gotten me into the Diamond league... for a while.
14 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings.sc2replay
7:00 mark - 240m 292g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 0/40 - 5 OL - 2300e 675t 960a
Tech: Nydus (ready to deploy), Lair, +1attack (151/160), ling speed
Army:
26 lings, 5 ling eggs
Timings:
3:06 pool done
3:57 queen
5:22 lair done
6:47 speed done
6:52 Nydus done
7:09 melee attack done
11 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool nyduslings.sc2replay
7:00 mark - 159m 372g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 21/40 - 5 OL - 2400e 675t 850a
Tech: Nydus (Ready to deploy), lair, +1melee (7:13), ling speed (7:03)
32 lings, 1 ling eggs, 1 overlord egg
Timings:
2:40 pool done
3:30 queen done
4:55 lair done
7:03 speed done
7:13 melee attack done
10 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 10 pool nyduslings.sc2replay
7:00 Mark - 180m 248g - 22 drones - 2 gas - inject 33/40 - 6 OL - 2450e 675t 800a -
Army:
20 lings - 6 ling eggs
Timings:
Queen 3:30
Lair 4:57
Nydus 6:57
Speed 6:54
Melee 7:32
The 14 and the 10 pool had the minerals above the hatch, and I guess that is a bit of a disadvantage.The 10 pool suffer from having to wait on minerals now and then. Which is why the 11 pool did the lair even faster, but again, the placement on the map might have been better for the 11 pool.
But please notice how the difference in ressources between the 14 pool and the 11 pool:
11 pool: 531 total ressources available + 3925 total resources spent = 4456 resources
14 pool: 532 total ressources available + 3935 total resources spent = 4467 resources
So thats basically just doing the extractor trick that makes the difference. For some people I guess those 11 resources might be very important though, but to me its worth the 11 resources to have the queen almost 3 seconds earlier. I have to see if I did stuff wrong with the 14 pool though, and try it again with minerals below the hatch. So far the numbers seem to agree with the OP.
But also with the fact that the 11 pool might not be better off economically, but what would happen if both builds ended up with 23 drones at the 7:00 mark? I wont find out today.
But I did do another 14 pool Nyduslings, with minerals below the hatch.
14 pool Nyduslings - Second Try
http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings2.sc2replay
7:00 - 55m 388g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 7/40 - 6 OL - 2400e 675t 950a
Tech: Nydus (ready to deploy), Lair, +1attack, ling speed
28 lings, 5 ling eggs
3:02 pool done
3:52 queen done
5:19 lair done (might have been 2 seconds late)
6:24 speed done
6:46 melee attack done
6:47 Nydus done
14 pool: 443 total ressources available + 4025 total resources spent = 4468 total resources worth of zerg... biomass.
11 pool: 531 total ressources available + 3925 total resources spent = 4456 resources
Yea, that did a wooping difference from 11 to 12 ressources difference in favor of the 14 pool. I guess the numbers are pretty solid.
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Skrag -
gains 18 worker seconds on drone 10
gains 20 seconds on drone 11
Loses 23 seconds on drone 11 after starting the pool
Loses 36 seconds on drone 12
Loses 35 seconds on drone 13
Loses 3 seconds on first drone 14 (the time between when the 14th worker finishes and the pool starts)
Loses 3 seconds on second drone 14 (that was rebuilt after the pool)
That works out to 43.4 minerals worth of lost mining time before 2:19.
In addition, because the queen finishes faster, 11pool has to start the overlord 1 larvae sooner, which is worth 15 seconds of drone time, and the extractor trick itself costs around another 5 seconds, for another 14.5 minerals.
Add in the cost of the trick itself, and we have a total of 67.9 minerals lost in the first 2 minutes.
In addition, from 1:33 to 1:40, wasting 7 seconds worth of spawn time with 3 stockpiled larvae. Every drone made from 14 on loses that 7 seconds, for about 5 minerals worth of mining time each.
This is all very important to know, because early minerals are much more important than later minerals, because they affect *all* of your timings, and 67.9 minerals equates to being about 7 seconds faster with whatever it was you were planning to do. A faster hatchery, a faster roach warren, faster upgrades.
Because the 11 pool finishes the pool faster (duh), it does get an advantage in larvae spawn. Finishing 19 seconds faster means that you get to use that extra 4 larvae 19 seconds sooner (again, duh). If you make drones out of all of them, that's 76 seconds worth of worker time, which is equivalent to about 53 minerals, which means that an 11pool does come pretty close to catching up economically after the first spawn larvae finishes.
There are a couple of problems though. The first is that you haven't actually caught back up completely, even if you use all the extra larvae to make drones.
Hang on a sec, I don't think I quite follow...
So the 11-pool is so many worker seconds in front, then so many behind, etc, for a total of 67 minerals... Right?
Critically, it's also 7 seconds of larvae spawn time behind, which equates to 5 minerals per drone after that point... ok....
But when it gets it's spawn 19 seconds faster, it gets 76 drone seconds as an advantage, which isn't quite enough to catch up... got that.
However, doesn't it get *another* spawn 19 seconds faster a bit later on, for another 76 drone seconds of mining? That's enough to catch up.
Then it gets it's next larvae pop 19 seconds faster, pulling way ahead, right?
I know, I know, you should have expanded and got a second hatch by that point, but even the second hatch part stays 19 seconds ahead in it's larva spawn. It's hard to keep measuring further and further into the future, but I found it a little 'unfair' that your test scenario stopped at 20 drones. If we'd been grabbing gas and saturating the mineral field, we'd be stopping at 30 drones, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the 10-pool would be ahead in, say, a 30-drones, then zerglings up to 50 kinda test.
My point is - surely, that 19 seconds of faster spawn larva time should be counted more than once?
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On October 27 2010 05:56 sylph_uscm wrote:Skrag - Show nested quote +gains 18 worker seconds on drone 10
gains 20 seconds on drone 11
Loses 23 seconds on drone 11 after starting the pool
Loses 36 seconds on drone 12
Loses 35 seconds on drone 13
Loses 3 seconds on first drone 14 (the time between when the 14th worker finishes and the pool starts)
Loses 3 seconds on second drone 14 (that was rebuilt after the pool)
That works out to 43.4 minerals worth of lost mining time before 2:19.
In addition, because the queen finishes faster, 11pool has to start the overlord 1 larvae sooner, which is worth 15 seconds of drone time, and the extractor trick itself costs around another 5 seconds, for another 14.5 minerals.
Add in the cost of the trick itself, and we have a total of 67.9 minerals lost in the first 2 minutes.
In addition, from 1:33 to 1:40, wasting 7 seconds worth of spawn time with 3 stockpiled larvae. Every drone made from 14 on loses that 7 seconds, for about 5 minerals worth of mining time each.
This is all very important to know, because early minerals are much more important than later minerals, because they affect *all* of your timings, and 67.9 minerals equates to being about 7 seconds faster with whatever it was you were planning to do. A faster hatchery, a faster roach warren, faster upgrades.
Because the 11 pool finishes the pool faster (duh), it does get an advantage in larvae spawn. Finishing 19 seconds faster means that you get to use that extra 4 larvae 19 seconds sooner (again, duh). If you make drones out of all of them, that's 76 seconds worth of worker time, which is equivalent to about 53 minerals, which means that an 11pool does come pretty close to catching up economically after the first spawn larvae finishes.
There are a couple of problems though. The first is that you haven't actually caught back up completely, even if you use all the extra larvae to make drones. Hang on a sec, I don't think I quite follow... So the 11-pool is so many worker seconds in front, then so many behind, etc, for a total of 67 minerals... Right? Critically, it's also 7 seconds of larvae spawn time behind, which equates to 5 minerals per drone after that point... ok.... But when it gets it's spawn 19 seconds faster, it gets 76 drone seconds as an advantage, which isn't quite enough to catch up... got that. However, doesn't it get *another* spawn 19 seconds faster a bit later on, for another 76 drone seconds of mining? That's enough to catch up. Then it gets it's next larvae pop 19 seconds faster, pulling way ahead, right? I know, I know, you should have expanded and got a second hatch by that point, but even the second hatch part stays 19 seconds ahead in it's larva spawn. It's hard to keep measuring further and further into the future, but I found it a little 'unfair' that your test scenario stopped at 20 drones. If we'd been grabbing gas and saturating the mineral field, we'd be stopping at 30 drones, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the 10-pool would be ahead in, say, a 30-drones, then zerglings up to 50 kinda test. My point is - surely, that 19 seconds of faster spawn larva time should be counted more than once?
11pool doesn't even get that first 76 second advantage until 34 supply. 14 pool will get the hatchery, and therefore the second queen, faster, which will likely more than make up for whatever gains might have been had from the second spawn larvae.
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Ah, I see. My 10-pool (10-pool, 10-ovie, extractor trick, 13 queen) get's 3 larva spawns when approaching 34 supply of lings, and ends up hitting 34 supply at 5:03, so I thought maybe that would put it ahead, economically, if your tests had pumped drones, instead of zerglings.
I'm not one for arguing that a 10-pool is a good idea economically speaking, but these threads make me realise just how small the economy hit of a 10-pool is, and seems quite minor compared to the large degree of flexibility of the 10-pool. I dunno though, I've been 10-pooling for a month or so with great success.
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On October 27 2010 06:18 Skrag wrote:11pool doesn't even get that first 76 second advantage until 34 supply. 14 pool will get the hatchery, and therefore the second queen, faster, which will likely more than make up for whatever gains might have been had from the second spawn larvae.
But that kind of build still fails to properly test this for a 1 base all in, and if you expand the first 4 min, then the OP already stated the 14 pool would be the better choice. 11 pool is when going all in.
Any comments on the replays and numbers I just posted? I spent all day on it... almost... and they seem to hold up. I supplied the replays so you can try to find errors in my test. But in both builds I went for a 21 drone count, while making other buildings. The 14 pool ends up only having a 12 resources advantage... So if I did this again and tried to have 24 drones in the end, I guess it might even be in favor of the 11 pool. This is all when teching early and all that. Getting lair for each build asap. Same with queen. at 7 min, the goal was to have Nydus, ling speed, +1 melee attack, lair, and lots of zerglings.
14 pool
http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings2.sc2replay
11 pool
http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool nyduslings.sc2replay
Can you explain why the difference in resources is only 12 at the 7 min mark?
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caldor: I just got done watching your replays:
1) You cut drones at 15 mineral drones, which is not very standard play. You had 21 total, and one full base is 30. 14 pool in a different build can easily have one fully saturated base at 7:00
2) Early double extractor isn't that standard either.
I ran a quick test using the speedling expand build. at 7:00 I han have 31 drones, 14 lings, speed, +1 attack, and Lair.
I'll try fast Nydus next..
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Seems like both builds are viable depending on situation, and how fast you want to expand.
But right now with 14/15 hatch being so easy and safe, I'm not sure 14 pool is worth going over 10/11 pool or a 14/15 hatch, unless u get mannered. Untill a patch changes that..
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On October 27 2010 06:36 Utena wrote:
caldor: I just got done watching your replays:
1) You cut drones at 15 mineral drones, which is not very standard play. You had 21 total, and one full base is 30. 14 pool in a different build can easily have one fully saturated base at 7:00
2) Early double extractor isn't that standard either.
I ran a quick test using the speedling expand build. at 7:00 I han have 31 drones, 14 lings, speed, +1 attack, and Lair.
I'll try fast Nydus next..
Thanks. But about how the 14 pool can saturate, yes it can easily saturate at that point, but the 11 pool will saturate even faster. But when doing any kind of one base all in, the strongest use to make of those is attacking around 5-8 minutes into the game. After that point a quick expand or some counter tech might make the whole build worthless since you only have a mediocre army and income. Of course the full saturation might help recovering, or to set up the proper defenses. I aim to make sure I can hurt the other player, and in the most hurtful ways, leaving most tech options open for an early push of most kinds, with this build. Its most suited for lings the way I go though, and later maybe mutas, since I stop droning so early.
This way seems like a good balance of both, with some flexibility. But its also because if you do not go early gas, then saturation will be reached, before the 11 pool gets that economic advantage. It can also just be a larvae advantage, but I aim a bit for both. If I changed the build to aim for 17 drones on minerals, it might very well end up even more in favor of the 11 pool from my calculations.
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Anyone who does an 11 pool against a Terran is going to get roflstomped... I don't see any viable way that this would beat a wall off even with roaches as long as it is properly scouted.
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On October 27 2010 07:25 PositiveZero wrote:
Anyone who does an 11 pool against a Terran is going to get roflstomped... I don't see any viable way that this would beat a wall off even with roaches as long as it is properly scouted.
Not in my experience. Also the problem is scouting it, because the Nydus can be placed anywhere with an overlord. When scouted, they will see 2x extractors and a lair being made. I try to not make lings before 4 min or later in the game, which makes it up for grabs what I am going to push with.
As I already wrote the economic disadvantage is gone at the 7 min mark, unless going weighing it against an early expand. But its true that this build is strongest against protoss and Zerg. Against Terran the fast expand is probably better. I would like to see someone fast expand and then stop a big MMM one base all in push though.
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I'm pretty sure you're wrong, if you're looking at long term economic lead. 11 poolover I seem to be about 3-5 food behind speedlign expand or other such builds, in terms of drone/ling food count. in 11 poolover I couldn't even spend all my larve when they popped, even at ~6:00. Speedling Expand I'm 300 minerals ahead and have an expansion down, that I couldn't afford in 11 poolover.
If you're going to cut drone production at ~24 food, then yeah, I'll bet 11 poolover is pretty good for a 1 base all in (And cutting your econ before 1 base saturation is pretty all-in). ANd maybe that's a viable strategy, but I't incorrect to say that the economic advantage dissapears against a standard 14 pool.
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On October 27 2010 10:05 Utena wrote:
I'm pretty sure you're wrong, if you're looking at long term economic lead. 11 poolover I seem to be about 3-5 food behind speedlign expand or other such builds, in terms of drone/ling food count. in 11 poolover I couldn't even spend all my larve when they popped, even at ~6:00. Speedling Expand I'm 300 minerals ahead and have an expansion down, that I couldn't afford in 11 poolover.
If you're going to cut drone production at ~24 food, then yeah, I'll bet 11 poolover is pretty good for a 1 base all in (And cutting your econ before 1 base saturation is pretty all-in). ANd maybe that's a viable strategy, but I't incorrect to say that the economic advantage dissapears against a standard 14 pool.
14 pool
http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings2.sc2replay
11 pool
http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool nyduslings.sc2replay
Then disprove it. Two replays, both doing the same build, but ends up with only 12 resources differeince, the 11 pool having a higher supply count, while only being 12 resources behind. Yes, I cut supply early, because I want this early tech attack to be done at 7 min into the game, and that is in the test build, in an actual game it will probably be more like 8 min into the game due to scouting drone and making a spine crawler. But if the 14 pool is a stronger economy build, it it worth doing when being less defended early game? 12 resources buys.... nothing. But I do admit that the 14 pool has the speed, melee attack +1 and the Nydus a bit earlier.
Proper scouting is what is needed against this kind of build, problem is scouting properly how? The queen is out around 30 seconds earlier, the lair is done earlier. More lings done at the 7 min mark, with the same amount of drones. I win quite a few games against players who try to saturate before I do, because it leaves them behind in their army count. So I usually wait for their attack if my scouting does not show a cheese build, or maybe a heavy turtle build. Defend, then counter attack with Nydus, because that is usually the best way to go.
@ Skrag
When I do a 11 pool and the 14 pool the difference between the two is 22 seconds.
11 overpool: Queen done 3:30
14 pool: Queen done 3:52
At the cost of 7 seconds with max larvae.
11 pool done: 2:40
14 pool done: 3:02
These are the timings from the two replays I just posted.
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On October 27 2010 05:00 caldor wrote:This took most my day, but I came up with some numbers, its my Nyduslings tactic, that has gotten me into the Diamond league... for a while. 14 pool: http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 14 pool nyduslings.sc2replay7:00 mark - 240m 292g - 21 drones - 2 gas - inject 0/40 - 5 OL - 2300e 675t 960a Tech: Nydus (ready to deploy), Lair, +1attack (151/160), ling speed Army: 26 lings, 5 ling eggs
I might have to watch your replay and see if I see anything obvious, because by 7:00, I was able to get 23 drones, 24 lings, 5 ling eggs, 5 overlords, 1 overlord egg, and all the other stuff, with 240/220, for a total of 4685 resources. There's also a miscalculation somewhere in your resource counts, because by my count, your 14 pool had a total of 4075 spent, for a total of 4607, and your 11 pool spent 4025, for a total of 4556.
I screwed up and built 2 too many drones, but was only 2 lings short (1 drone worth) of your 6pool, and would have had 2 extra lings instead of 2 less had I not overbuilt drones. Obviously that will give fewer resources, but it would have been the last two drones that were zerglings instead, so the impact probably wouldn't have been too big, especially since at that point you're into diminishing returns on mining workers.
However, and this is very important, not only was I 129 total resources ahead of your 11pool, but I was able to finish the nydus and melee +1 by 6:45, a full 24 seconds before you finished both. That's the power of early drones. You just get stuff faster.
Also, I couldn't quite work out the lair and +1 attack timings, but with a 14 gas/ 14 pool build, I was able to hit 32 lings, 6 overlords, and 21 drones by the 7 minute mark, *and* have 5 more ling eggs just started. This also allows you to get ling speed quite a bit earlier just in case you need it, but doing that makes lair and +1 timing *very* tricky, and I just didn't take the time to work out the exact timings, although I did come within 10 seconds of finishing both at 7:00. To be honest, I have no idea why that seems to be so much better at the 7 minute mark, because the pool comes slightly slower, so it should be at a slight disadvantage larvae-wise. It's possible that the larvae spawn times just work out better so that your queen-spawned larvae don't ever block a normal larva spawn, since it seems that anytime the hatchery has more than 3 larvae, the 15 second spawn timer starts over from zero. I'm not positive on that, but it seems that way from what I've seen.
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On October 27 2010 14:09 caldor wrote:
@ Skraag
When I do a 11 pool and the 14 pool the difference between the two is 22 seconds.
In the 14pool replay, your pool was 2-3 seconds later than it could have been. I dunno if you were just as slow with the 11pool, but 2 seconds doesn't really mean a lot when there's that much slop. It's possible that I had a little bit of slop in my timings too.
Some other stuff after scanning that replay:
In the 14pool, you also wasted 10 seconds of larvae spawn time around 22-24 supply. In fact, you wasted at least a few seconds of larvae spawn time on every inject, by waiting for the queen to have enough energy to inject before using the larvae. I'm assuming you did the same thing in the 11pool replay though, too, so that shouldn't matter a ton. All these little things explain why my 14pool was ahead of yours.
Also, it looks like the replay I just watched was from your second attempt, and the total resource count for that one is 4668, and you were also able to get nydus and +1 by 6:45 rather than 7:09.
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Poolover ... Poo-lover. Hehe ... Ugh I'm immature -_-
User was warned for this post
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On October 27 2010 18:47 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 14:09 caldor wrote:
@ Skraag
When I do a 11 pool and the 14 pool the difference between the two is 22 seconds.
In the 14pool replay, your pool was 2-3 seconds later than it could have been. I dunno if you were just as slow with the 11pool, but 2 seconds doesn't really mean a lot when there's that much slop. It's possible that I had a little bit of slop in my timings too. Some other stuff after scanning that replay: In the 14pool, you also wasted 10 seconds of larvae spawn time around 22-24 supply. In fact, you wasted at least a few seconds of larvae spawn time on every inject, by waiting for the queen to have enough energy to inject before using the larvae. I'm assuming you did the same thing in the 11pool replay though, too, so that shouldn't matter a ton. All these little things explain why my 14pool was ahead of yours. Also, it looks like the replay I just watched was from your second attempt, and the total resource count for that one is 4668, and you were also able to get nydus and +1 by 6:45 rather than 7:09.
3:02 pool done
3:52 queen done
5:19 lair done (might have been 2 seconds late)
6:24 speed done
6:46 melee attack done
6:47 Nydus done
14 pool: 443 total ressources available + 4025 total resources spent = 4468 total resources worth of zerg... biomass.
11 pool: 531 total ressources available + 3925 total resources spent = 4456 resources
True, I did a second attempt at the 14 pool because I knew some timings were off. But you count 4668 total resources? I will have to look at it again. I do remember going over it twice, and I got the numbers to be 4025 total resouces spend and 443 total resouces available both times at the 7:00 mark. When I look for the timings, I wait for the second where they building gets its command icons to mark its finish. Same with queen, but she is ready from the point her animation is up.
I have thought about the larvae and when to make them into drones. I guess the lack of queen energy might even be there to give time to make those larvae into drones. I could try redoing it when I get home. I was rather banged up after doing this same build about 10-15 times yesterday. Since I had almost the same result after the 2nd attempt, I assumed I had it somewhat right.
How soon did you finish the pool in your attempt? From my calculations, I finished it earlier with my 2nd 14 pool attempt. 3:02 pool done - 3:52 queen done.
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I was always curious about this, as I always 10 pooled in team games because of the high cheese/rush percentage, but never really felt an income hitch in my build (when I didn't have to defend cheese). So I did some independent testing in YABOT of a few freestyle build orders to see how they stacked up.
Protocol: 0:00-7:00 window, Hatchery at 18 supply to avoid saturation, 1/2 drones maynard'd and a queen before the hatch finishes. No drones pulled from gas (to exaggerate any gas superiority) Only drones, overlord and queens made.
Results:Minerals Mined---Gas Mined---Harvesters Active---Food
10 Pool----------4690---------------340-------------52-------------------58/60
14 Pool----------4670---------------516-------------47-------------------57/60
Interpreting Results: It appears that the 10 pool is ahead on larvae, if only by a few seconds, but most notably, it is also very close on economy. The 14 pool is ahead on gas by a significant amount, but I think an earlier gas could be worked into the 10 pool build to take care of that without sacrificing much on minerals. I think that if the test were say, to 7:10, The harvester/food count would have equalized because of the way the larvae syncs up.
I believe this longer (7:00) test along with the above, shorter tests tell us the full story: That at differing points in time, either build may be ahead on mineral production or larvae production, but as time goes on, the net effect is nil. Either build is able to enter the midgame with a similar economy and unit production.
Builds Used:
10 Pool---------9 Overlord
10 Overlord----14 Pool
10 Gas Trick--13 Gas
14 Queen-------15 Overlord
18 Hatch-------16 Queen
17 Overlord----18 Hatch
18 Gas----------21 Queen
20 Queen------
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I was also curious and compared both builds. Basically I came to the same results, that both build's economies are close to each other. The 14-pool was 0 to 10 worker-seconds/ressources (assuming 1 worker-second gains 1 ressource) ahead, but within those time intervals even minor inaccuracies in any build can easily add up to greater amounts.
I tried some builds and tracked the time when each worker pops out, and when worker morphed to buildings. This was done for around 5 minutes of the game. Then i saw that at the moment of queen larvae injection the producing of worker was heavily influenced. So i tracked the time of the injections and calculated the total working time of all workers up to this point. The 11-pool started with injections at around 270 seconds (4:30).
Weaknesses in the data:
1) Inaccuracies: I believe minor inaccuracies in the exact time code of the worker activities are not too important, because it doesn't influence the total worker time very much. If we look at 23 workers that amass 3200 ressources/ worker-seconds (the weakest build: the 11 poolover, not 11 overpool!), inaccuracies of up to 2 seconds per worker (far more than I would assume realistically) could add up to 46 ressources in total, if they would not cancel each other out (-> gaussian bell curve). That would be about 1.5 % of the total ressources.
2) end-time: some workers morph to buildings or do extractor tricks. This stops or reduces their working time, in case of extractor trick I assumed 6 seconds for the trick and 4 seconds (more than neccessary to be on the safe side) for additional travel time to perform the trick. The timing of a building is not necessary linked to the drone of the same line! It can be morphed by another drone! For example: 11 overpool: 227th second: the 20th drone pops out. 229th second: the 2nd hatch is started. I calculated 2 worker seconds for this drone, but it is not necessary that exactly this drone must build the hatch. In this case another drone went to the location of the natural and morphed to hatch. This doesn't influence the total working-time of all drones. I stated this in the same data line to faciliate calculations for me. BUT the timings are nevertheless accurate (see 1.).
Here is my data:
THE 14-POOL
start-time, #worker, (end-time,) worktime
0 6 1620
22 7 248
37 8 233
50 9 220
76 10 194
93 11 177
93 12 177
102 13 168
114 14 (pool@118) 4
142 15 128
147 16 123
157 17 (ext@174) 17
189 18 81
205 19 (hatch@218) 13
222 20 48
### queen rdy @ 235 ###
243 21 27
251 22 19
265 23 15
(279 24)
(### 2nd larvae spawning ###)
(297 25)
(297 26)
(297 27)
( ### hatch rdy @ 320 ###)
The total ressources up to 270 seconds would be 3512.
THE 11-OVERPOOL
start-time, #worker, (end-time,) worktime
0 6 1620
22 7 248
36 8 234
47 9 (extractor-trick@56 = -10 working time) 213
58 10 212
72 11 (pool@96) 24
120 12 150
128 13 142
135 14 135
142 15 128
151 16 119
168 17 (ext@181) 13
199 18 71
211 19 59
### queen rdy @ 212 ###
227 20 (hatch@229) 2
242 21 28
258 22 12
(273 23)
(273 24)
(273 25)
(273 26)
(296 27)
(311 28)
(### hatch rdy @ 328 ###)
Total ressources at 270th second = 3410.
Now it seems that the 14-pool is around 100 ressources ahead. But we have to account for the ealier injections which we haven't done yet. The 11-pool is around 20 -25 seconds earlier with its queen and her injections and it can afford to use them to produce workers with them (the 11-poolover can not for example use its earlier injections optimally). So we have 20 seconds x 4 workers = 80 working-seconds/ressources. The 11-overpool closes up very much at 270th second/ 4:30. I tried to play it more economically and squeeze some more workers in, and managed to get 3419 worker-seconds/ressources out of the build. It may be neccessary to delay the extractor a little (not more than 30 seconds) to be able to spawn the 2nd queen in time. At last one can say that economically both builds are comparable, especially after 4:30, when spawned larvae kick in.
The 11-overpool has the other advantage, that it is more flexible and doesn't tell early enemy scouts whether you go eco or for a push. With its earlier pool and queen it is a little bit more efficient at defending and a little bit more flexible at reacting to early pushes or cheese.
I also tested other builds and it turned out, that 11 poolover has no advantages, neither with double extractor trick nor with one extractor trick. The generate 3237 (2ET) and 3163 (1ET) ressources and it's not possible for them to use up the early queen's larvae in time as they lack the minerals.
The 14-hatch-13-pool surprisingly didn't do too well too, compared with the susceptibility to early rushes (or I expected more). It generated 3404 ressources. (Strangely it works well in my anti-terran build..). The 16-hatch-15-pool outperformed the other builds with 3645 ressources at 270th second. Its hatch was just 12 seconds later than the 14-hatch-13-pool one's.
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I was in doubt for a while, but I do believe that the economy of the 11 overpool is better than the 10 overpool.
@ Titnium - Do you have total spendings for those builds? My logic tells me 10 pool - overlord - extractor trick ought to loose at least one larvae in larvae spawn time. With all spendings, and minerals and gas added up, we will get to know how many minerals and gas has been gathered and spent in comparison to each build at 7:00.
I like the fast expand idea, and it also seems to be very viable, and without more than 100 resources lost to have the earlier pool and queen, while also having those extra larvae. I am testing to see how much of a difference it will make to go for 26 pure economy supply. That is only 1 queen and drones in the first 26 supply, to see if it helps the 14 pool or the 11 pool more. Problem is finding a way to make the best timings for the 11 pool, because it needs the gas to be done at the right times, so that the lair can be started earlier. Of course I can also just see how close I can get to the 14 pool, and not try to make the lair those 20 or so seconds earlier.
The first two attempts:
11 pool 7 min: (26 economy)
Economy: 124m 368g - e2500 t675 a800
492 resources + 3975 spent = 4476 total
14 pool 7min: (26 economy)
Economy 360m 344g - e2500 t675 a650
704 resources + 3825 spent = 4529 total
4529 - 4476 = 53 difference in favor of the 14 pool. The 11 pool is 150 = 6 lings ahead though, and this time I had both of the builds finish all the techs at 7:00. The techs being: ling speed, melee+1 and nydus. I will test again Friday, I have a day off then. So far it seems that it might be in favor of the 14 pool to go past 24 supply still making drones. That is after the time the lair is on its way and techs are as well.
Amazing how small the difference is: (but these two builds didnt have all tech done either of them, at 7:00 the 14 pool was closer though)
11 pool: 7m (24 economy) Replay
Economy: 159m 372g - 2400e 675t 850a
531 resources + 3925 spent = 4456 total
14 pool 7m (24 economy) Replay
Economy: 55m 388g - 2400e 675t 950a
443 total resources + 4025 spent = 4468 total (I double checked these numbers again)
Difference being 12 resources difference in favor of the 14 pool.
My 11 pool might have had too much lost larvae time though because of gas being put down too early, I am not sure. But it does take some tinkering with the build that is a bit tight when it has to get the lair earlier than the 14 pool, while still getting the same techs at 7:00 and a few more lings.
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On October 28 2010 02:51 caldor wrote:11 pool: 7m (24 economy) ReplayEconomy: 159m 372g - 2400e 675t 850a 531 resources + 3925 spent = 4456 total 14 pool 7m (24 economy) ReplayEconomy: 55m 388g - 2400e 675t 950a 443 total resources + 4025 spent = 4468 total (I double checked these numbers again)
Ok, I was calculating resources spent incorrectly, adding the cost of the first 6 drones you make, but the comparisons should still be the same, since I did it equally for both. But this should be the true total resources @7 min based on your replays.
Both builds:
21 drones = 750 (you start with 6, so only spent the cost of 15 drones)
Queen = 150
Spawning pool = 250
2 extractors = 150
Nydus = 200/200
Evo chamber = 125
+1 melee = 100/100
Ling speed = 100/100
Lair = 150/100
Total: 2475
14pool
55/388
28 lings = 700
6 overlords = 500
5 ling eggs = 250
Total: 4368
11pool
159/372
32 lings = 800
5 overlords = 400
1 overlord egg = 100
1 ling egg = 50
Total: 4356
Still a 12 resource difference, so the actual numbers don't matter. When I did the 14 pool, I was slightly ahead of this, at 4385, but I also had built two extra drones (and am a little surprised that 2 drones only make about a 20 mineral difference, but they would have been pretty late drones). Again, that's probably not particularly relevant, because if my 14 pool is ahead of yours, then my 11 pool would likely be ahead of yours as well. Hmm. Except that my 14 pool was way more than 12 resources ahead of my 11 pool.
At the end of all this, I would say that yeah, if you stop drone production for a 1-base all-in, 11pool isn't *that* far behind 14pool economically.
Still, though, the 14pool is slightly ahead, and finishes your desired set of things (ling speed, nydus, and +1 attack) at 6:45 instead of 7:08. That's nothing to shake a stick at, imo.
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Oh, you did it manually. I had not even thought of that. At least Blizzard's resources spent numbers seem to hold true then, I take all the numbers from the replay.
I am also amazed at how few resources it really comes down to with those extra drones. I guess it is because they are getting closer to saturation, and closer to the 7 minute point, so the difference is cut down a lot because of it. I still cannot find a way to make the 11 pool get an actual advantage though, in economics. For one base all in, I guess having more larvae is a more useful advantage anyway, at least when only making 15 drones on minerals. I do stop at 22 drones total at one point, which leaves 16 drones on minerals for a while, but that drone becomes the Nydus.
Another possible difference is the 14 pool placing tech buildings earlier simply because it can afford it. That takes out drone time as well, but I guess that is also part of the reason why it gets it techs a bit earlier.
So it does seem the 11 pool might be the build with the least risk involved, but it does still have to scout of course, and that is where I really think its advantage can kick in, because it can do just about any opening quite fast. If the other player is going for a early expand, this build usually makes sure they regret trying that. At least when scouted properly and making the build into early push.
I have sometimes expanded to rich mineral fields early though, for the simple reason as to being a distraction. It pays for itself with 6 workers added to it quite fast I think, and you get to know what units the other player will be using. Was especially useful in a match where the other player went banshee, so I placed a few Spores and punished him for trying that with a Nydus and those lovely lings. But it might not work so well with the 11 pool.
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On October 29 2010 05:01 caldor wrote:I still cannot find a way to make the 11 pool get an actual advantage though, in economics.
You shouldn't be able to find a way. It simply is not a more economic build. The faster larvae spawn allows it to *almost* catch up, but it will always be behind economically.
For one base all in, I guess having more larvae is a more useful advantage anyway, at least when only making 15 drones on minerals.
That also is exactly as it should be. If you sacrifice economy for an all-in attack, a build that gives you a stronger attack should be better at attacking than a more economic build. You just need to make sure that the sacrifice you're making is worthwhile.
In this particular case, given that a 14pool gets the necessary tech quite a bit faster, I'd actually personally say that the sacrifice wasn't worthwhile, because your attack can happen faster. But realistically, you're sacrificing economy in *both* cases. You just sacrifice slightly more with the 11pool.
But if you were doing something like a pure roach all-in, 11pool is likely going to be superior due to the larvae advantage. But even there, I've done testing with the 7RR that seems to be very popular right now, and a later pool can come pretty close to the attack timing of an 11 pool, with a pretty sizable economic advantage.
As far as safety goes, researching ling speed early is something that is generally done for safety. Slow lings can't really do jack shit against much of anything. You delay ling speed for quite some time, while that was the first thing I researched in my 14pool tests.
Another thing to consider: practically nobody actually does a straight-up 14 pool. The only reason I've been using that it all is because it was the original point of comparison, with claims that an 11pool got an economic advantage over 14pool. I think even the 14pool-15hatch build has fallen out of favor recently. Gas-pool or hatch-pool builds are *much* more common.
I might run a few more tests to see if I can get the tech timings worked out, but my initial tests of a 14gas-13pool build actually ended up with *more* lings than your 11pool at the 7 minute mark. I just couldn't quite get the tech timings right.
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I will try to do a game where I expand after 4:30 and making both 11 and 14 pool more focused on economy, but still going for early tech like lair. I just need to figure out the build. Just to see if the more larvae turned into drones does become an economic advantage. It just seems logical that the 14 pool always being 2-3 drones ahead on average, should get the advantage.
But other than that, the most major advantage of this build is how many players like to time their builds with the setup of other races. A 11 pool will make them think something cheesy might be on the way, the early double gas as well. The best part is when they do not find a roach warren, they probably expect mutas. All in all, it should keep a good scouter on their toes, and they will probably feel like they need to attack, but I will keep scouts out and make sure I get some spines in place before the attack hits, and then counter attack with Nydus. But I do not know what it takes to get the economic advantage for the 11 pool. Maybe at 4m30s there has to be a few lings to defend against scouts and to scout + ling speed. Then the fast expand which probably also has to happen at the same time as the 14 pool. Unless it would make no sense due to the 14 pools economic advantage, then the 14 pool should do it earlier of course. I have the day off, so I will see what I can come up with.
I have tested a few times, and the early expand seems to take some good micro with the 11 pool, or good macro I guess it becomes. It is doable with the 11 pool and at most, 200 resources is lost. That is if the early expand is done too early, but then it still probably pays for itself and makes up for at least some of the lost when its done. The way I did is was to make the queen for the expansion before the expansion got done:
Economy -
Early: 1 extractor at 16 drones, Expand hatch at 3:30, 2 queens before its done.
Second extractor after second hatch and queen is on its way.
Goal:
Build up to 55 drones and 2 queens.
One drone to make a spine after 8min in the game
I thought I had found the way to prove the 11 pool to be economic, but then I found that I had saturated the 14 pool without making extractors, leaving at least 6 drones doing nothing there. Main problem is the micro it takes and the timing, because the 11 pool does end up losing larvae spawn time. With perfect timing, maybe it does gain a small economic advantage for a short while, but not enough to get ahead it seems, and it will take so much micro that scouting will be impossible unless you are Fruitseller. So its still at the conclusion that the OP came up with, at least in my opinion. For a one base all in, 11 pool, otherwise 14 pool. Early Mutas with one base all in seems best with the 14 pool as well btw, since you can then have 5 mutas the first 7 min. Almost at 6:30. With the less expensive units and tech though, which is all tier 1 units, the 11 pool will still hold up better I think. Since it is better protected early against scouts and cheese.
And as they say, knowledge is power.
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Omg, didnt expect to find this thread still active.
On topic: 11 pool was my opening of choice in all MUs back in the days when zerg suffered from early agression. After the zerg buffs I use it mainly on 2 ocasions:
1) zvz. It is great because:
- it is safe vs 6-7 pools. I dont scout with drones at all (add this to eco advantage). Good overlord placement allows to spot the incoming lings in time. And spotting his drone, ovies allows for a good guess to where his position is.
- it gets spawn larva 20 seconds faster which is crucial in ling bane wars. It is also very good vs fe builds vs which 14 pool is not good enough.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you an initiative, you put the pressure on the enemy which is worth a lot to me.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you faster 2 lings for scouting purposes. You just run around his base and see his tech with no casualties while he usually gets 6 or more lings just in case (while I make drones, eco advantage once again).
2) 5-6 roach rush. It gets the roaches 20 seconds faster, but with no ling speed.
In zvt I usually prefer 14 hatch for a number of reasons. In zvp I use 11 pool sometimes in a combination with gas steal to get 2 lings fast and put a threat of a runby with lings, but I like 14 pool into roach speedling rush much better (unless he expands behind cannons, and I dont feel like roach breaking him, I double expand, for which 14 pool is also better).
P.S. dont get overdrawn into math. The game is very dynamic. Try the openings in real combat and see how it feels, it gets much better results than raw math. As for the raw math you have a choice of around 100 minerals vs 20 faster pool + 2 larva, which is all short term in case you play standard with fe and mass drone. That is all you need to know.
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Run these two through http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/ and see the numbers: The 10 pool: (again the 11 pool should be better but not possible in that site as far as I know) Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02 Minerals per second 13 Gas per second: 3.78 Workers on minerals: 22 Workers on gas: 3, 3 The 14 pool: Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02 Minerals per second 11.5 Gas per second: 3.78 Workers on minerals: 17 Workers on gas: 3, 3
Look at the difference between the current minerals & minerals spent as well though.
The 10 pool seems to not spend the resources so effectively, plus why get an evo chamber??
The main use of an evo chamber that early is for a +1 roach push in ZvZ, or to wall off an EXPANSION HATCHERY.
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On October 29 2010 05:25 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 05:01 caldor wrote:I still cannot find a way to make the 11 pool get an actual advantage though, in economics. You shouldn't be able to find a way. It simply is not a more economic build. The faster larvae spawn allows it to *almost* catch up, but it will always be behind economically. Show nested quote +For one base all in, I guess having more larvae is a more useful advantage anyway, at least when only making 15 drones on minerals. Another thing to consider: practically nobody actually does a straight-up 14 pool. The only reason I've been using that it all is because it was the original point of comparison, with claims that an 11pool got an economic advantage over 14pool. I think even the 14pool-15hatch build has fallen out of favor recently. Gas-pool or hatch-pool builds are *much* more common. I might run a few more tests to see if I can get the tech timings worked out, but my initial tests of a 14gas-13pool build actually ended up with *more* lings than your 11pool at the 7 minute mark. I just couldn't quite get the tech timings right.
If you do manage to pump out more lings with the 14 pool build, I would like a replay. With the 14 pool having less larvae, I just do not see how that is possible. Unless you stop making drones at some earlier point. Also I did manage to have the Nydus and all the tech ready at 17 min, when I made those 2 extra drones that you made with the 14 pool, with the 11 pool.
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The 10 pool seems to not spend the resources so effectively, plus why get an evo chamber??
The main use of an evo chamber that early is for a +1 roach push in ZvZ, or to wall off an EXPANSION HATCHERY.
The evo chamber is my secret weapon to why I win most my games, because I come with speedslings that has +1 attack and later +2 attack. +1 attack = 20% higher damage for lings. Since I usually have around 30 lings 7 minutes into the game... that is often what tips the game in my favor. Helps me take out the other players army, and even if that I lose a bit more than the other player, then the important thing is to not let the other player mass an army.
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On October 30 2010 01:13 caldor wrote:
If you do manage to pump out more lings with the 14 pool build, I would like a replay. With the 14 pool having less larvae, I just do not see how that is possible.
Yeah, it didn't make a lot of sense to me, either, but I did it twice (32 lings + 5 ling eggs at the 7 minute mark), and I have no clue how. The nydus and +1 timings were quite a bit off though. They were both started, but I didn't have +1 finishing until 7:35 or so.
Unfortunately I didn't save the replays, and I'm sure they've been overwritten by now. 
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On October 29 2010 05:25 Skrag wrote:
That also is exactly as it should be. If you sacrifice economy for an all-in attack, a build that gives you a stronger attack should be better at attacking than a more economic build. You just need to make sure that the sacrifice you're making is worthwhile.
In this particular case, given that a 14pool gets the necessary tech quite a bit faster, I'd actually personally say that the sacrifice wasn't worthwhile, because your attack can happen faster. But realistically, you're sacrificing economy in *both* cases. You just sacrifice slightly more with the 11pool.
But if you were doing something like a pure roach all-in, 11pool is likely going to be superior due to the larvae advantage. But even there, I've done testing with the 7RR that seems to be very popular right now, and a later pool can come pretty close to the attack timing of an 11 pool, with a pretty sizable economic advantage.
As far as safety goes, researching ling speed early is something that is generally done for safety. Slow lings can't really do jack shit against much of anything. You delay ling speed for quite some time, while that was the first thing I researched in my 14pool tests.
I delay ling speed for an early lair and because it times better with melee attack +1 to tech that first. Ling speed is done fast. On top of that, in plat and diamond, when they scout they look for active researches as well. I try not to let them know I research ling tech on their first scouting. Later they do not seem to keep an eye on the pool much.
But all that said, back to the part about 11 pool having the economic advantage... yes I found that I let it go too early.
11 pool : Replay
7:00: Economy: 454m 648g E:4400 T:200 A:0 - 47 drones
Resources: 1102 Spent: 4600 Total: 5709
14 pool : Replay
7:00: Economy: 235m 748g E:4500 T:200 A:0 - 48 drones
Resources: 983 Spent: 4700 Total: 5683
I have been testing this back and forth most of the day. First the 11 pool came out on top, then it proved to be because I did something wrong with the 14 pool. So I used 2-3 more attempts to perfect the 14 pool and it came out almost 100 resources ahead. I went back to the 11 pool one more time and used what I had learned from the 14 pool attempts, and it gained its advantage yet again.
Seems being two larvae ahead actually does bring an economic advantage. Problem is that being on one base, it does not get to show, due to saturation and the early advantage of the 14 pool being hard to beat. But if anyone can make a replay of a 14 pool getting more than 5729 total resources at 7:00, then feel free to disprove me.
I fast expanded with both builds before 3:30.
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Interesting data point:
12pool
Same 2475 spending as the other 2. (calculating manually, because there seem to be discrepancies between the actual spent and what the spending tab says is spent)
215/156
28 lings = 700
6 overlords = 500
5 ling eggs (4 of which have less than 2 seconds til hatch) = 250
Total: 4296
50-ish resources behind the 11pool (which I don't quite understand, 12pool should be better or equal, not worse)
But basically 4 extra lings (2 eggs about to pop, 1 egg about as far along as the 1 egg in the 11pool)
But, it completes all the tech by 6:49, and I bet if I really worked at it, I could cut 10 seconds off that time, where the timings on the 11pool all felt so tight that there was very little cutting to do.
I truly don't understand why a 12pool ends up behind in economy, but if you're going for an all-in attack, faster is better anyway. I did start to pull workers off gas when I had enough, so that I'd always have enough minerals to spend on zerglings asap, so maybe that distorts it a little, since extra workers on minerals past 16 give diminishing returns.
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I think the 12 pool ends up behind in economy because the 11 pool gets an advantage before the overlord is done, and the 12 pool I expect is a 9 overlord 12 pool? Otherwise if its the double extractor trick then each extractor trick is costing those 12 resources each. Cost of canceling extractor and time off minerals. The 14 pool gets ahead economically compared to the 11 pool because it gets those 14 drones before the pool, and before the 11 pool wastes larvae spawn time that makes the 14 pool catch up to and get ahead of the 11 pool economically, and stays that way until the 11 pool eventually catches up around 4:30 maybe 4:37 where it second injections makes it a few drones ahead of the 14 pool.
But as we have found out with all these tests, that the few drones that late in the economic opening means less than 20 minerals difference, due to being close to the saturation point, and/or being close to where the check point is for the comparison.
So I do not think the 12 pools problem is those diminishing returns... alone anyway, I think its just the time lost never really getting ahead from the 11 pool economically. Because it mostly comes from the extra 2 early drones the 14 pool uses. In my theorycraft at least.
11 pool : Replay
4:30: Economy: 64m 128g E:2500 T:200 A:0 - 16 drones
Resources: 192 Spent: 2700 Total: 2892
7:00: Economy: 454m 648g E:4400 T:200 A:0 - 47 drones
Resources: 1102 Spent: 4600 Total: 5709
14 pool : Replay
4:30: Economy: 230m 168g E:2350 T:200 A:0 - 18 drones
Resources: 398 Spent: 2550 Total: 2948
7:00: Economy: 235m 748g E:4500 T:200 A:0 - 48 drones
Resources: 983 Spent: 4700 Total: 5683
But can you find a way to make the 14 pool more economic than I did with the 11 pool? I think I found the point where the 11 pool does become the economic opening.
I just added the 4:30 mark of how the two builds compares at that point, and that is just before the 11 pool begins getting more drones than the 14 pool. I am just showing that the same thing that usually happens in the other 11 vs 14 pool tests still happens in this one, in this one the 11 pool just gets to put those extra drones to full economic use with the early expansion, and getting the lead that I have been claiming it could, and should compared to the 14 pool.
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damn, I really wish you would test on a map that has a YABOT version. it's so much easier. :/
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On October 30 2010 18:21 Skrag wrote:
damn, I really wish you would test on a map that has a YABOT version. it's so much easier. :/
Sorry, but I play vs AI, and all the YABOT maps bugs on me. All 1v1 maps really. I would have prefered to do this on Jungle Basin. With YABOT, maybe Desert Oasis. I could just add YABOT to this map though. I get a depencies error when I try to start an single player vs AI map with all 1vs1 maps. That has really bugged me for two months now, I was hoping the last two patches that it was getting fixed, but no. And since I am saving the game after making the 11 pool and the 14 pool to save test time, I really prefer to use save games. Those few minutes gets important after testing the build more than 10 times.
I will try to see if I can use this build with the newest version of YABOT, or add YABOT to this map.
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My first 14pool nothing-but-queens-and-drones test put me at 4650E/200T and 505/372, for a total of 5727, with 46 drones and 5 more in production. I probably had 2 more extractors than you, but even with the extra extractors, the minerals at the expansion were pretty oversaturated. If I built the 4th gas earlier, I'm pretty sure I could do better than that, since I had 23 workers on minerals at the expansion, which is at least one too many.
I'm too tired to look back over your 14pool, but one thing for sure that you can do better (and that most people are doing when fast expanding) is building the second queen at the main rather than waiting for the expansion to finish. Of course, you can do that for the 11pool too, but the hatchery + faster second queen should give the advantage back to 14.
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Damn, I hadn't even thought of saving the game. Why didn't I think of that! lol
The biggest problem I have with not using yabot is that restarting for another test takes so damn long, because you have to get the right start position, which can involve a lot of restarting. (The top start positions on shakuras are not favorable to zerg, and give a slight economy hit because the larvae spawn opposite the minerals)
Saving the game obviously gets rid of that problem. I feel so stupid. lol
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Better execution: 49 drones, 320/560, 4800/200, total 5880. Still messed up the expansion mining though, not putting drones in geysers soon enough.
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Replays would still be nice I want to know if you did something that I could use in the 11 pool.
I did not get the use my geysers at the expansion with the 11 pool build even though I had them finished just before the 7 min mark. So there is still room for improvement in my 11 pool build as well.
This is the Yabot code for the build. Roughly. I did it on Steppes of War but I tried making the AI follow this build and it seems it cannot follow it. I did not think he could make the AI follow a build order or I would have used Yabot more and earlier. This is using version 1.2.1
100 (i) Recorded Build | 11 | Author Name | This build order was recorded from your freestyle play. (/i) (s) 10 75 0 53 1 0 35 0 | 11 54 0 54 1 0 35 1 | 11 104 0 66 1 1 31 0 | 11 204 0 93 1 0 41 0 | 16 249 0 159 1 1 32 0 | 18 334 0 182 1 0 36 0 | 18 44 0 189 1 0 35 0 | 18 69 0 198 1 0 35 0 | 18 194 0 219 1 1 31 0 | 25 114 156 269 1 1 31 0 | 25 164 220 285 1 1 31 0 | 36 194 444 343 1 1 32 0 | 44 119 532 365 1 1 31 0 | 44 464 620 389 1 0 35 0 | 45 399 636 392 1 0 35 0 (/s)
I replaced brackets with () since the [] just changes the text. I will try to see if I can make it more AI friendly using the online BO maker for YABOT. It made the second hatch an inbase one.
Hmm, he does mention that he removed the Green Tea AI in 1.2.1 because last patch stopped his AI from working, and now its running with the Blizzard AI. I do not know how he still made it follow custom build orders though, since it does try to do so. Anyway, I cannot use Yabot for much I guess, so I will just go back to using the savegame.
I will be back in a bit with even more resources from the 11 pool... well I intend to at least
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On October 30 2010 19:04 Skrag wrote:
Better execution: 49 drones, 320/560, 4800/200, total 5880. Still messed up the expansion mining though, not putting drones in geysers soon enough.
So I have tried a few times with the 11 pool. My best resource score so far coming up to 5777. A replay of how you get 5880 would be nice though, because I cannot say if you calculate resources spent and so on in a different way, or how you got the 14 pool to get those extra minerals. And if it was another map, then the travel time to the expansion would / could become shorter. Even the placement on the map could influence that.
I will try a few more times just to see the outcome.
The closest I have gotten is:
7:00 - 4150 economy + 200 tech + 694m + 768g = 4350 spend + 1463 resources = 5813 total
47 drones - Replay of 11 pool FE
I will try with the 14 pool again to see if I can make it get to your numbers.
So far my top score with the 14 pool is 5720 total at 7:00. The 14 pool seems it could get ahead after 7 minutes into the game, if it makes a second queen right away after expanding. But making a queen at that point gives it some time with 5 larvae and not enough minerals to spend them.
I got it, I think. I had to use the 14 pool much the same way as the 11 pool. That is no extra queen or anything, and no extractors at expansion. Also saturating the first mineral line a bit more after the expansion is almost saturated:
7:00 - 4300 economy + 200 tech + 620m + 724g = 4500 spend + 1344 resources = 5844 total
45 drones
Replay of 14 pool FE
Which brings the whole thing back to the difference being less than 50 resources. Unless you can provide your replay Skrag, because you seem to have made a better use of the 14 pool fast expand.
All in all it seems the economic loss, with the 11 pool, whatever way you go. Fast economy one base, or fast expand, then when done right its certainly below 100 minerals in difference, and should be 50 minerals or less.
As I see it, that makes it less than the price of two zerglings or one drone. Seems well worth the early queen and being able to use more openings, while leaving the other player guessing, because you can go most ways with this.
There is the fast muta build, with that it seems to prefer a 14 pool, because you stop making drones where the 14 pool has the advantage, and that build really needs the early economic advantage to tech the spire in time, and still have minerals for 5 mutas those first 7 min. They might even be ready at 6:30. But thats not just an all in build, its a cheese. But I guess the same can be said about the roach rush build.
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On October 29 2010 23:31 Cheerio wrote:
Omg, didnt expect to find this thread still active.
On topic: 11 pool was my opening of choice in all MUs back in the days when zerg suffered from early agression. After the zerg buffs I use it mainly on 2 ocasions:
1) zvz. It is great because:
- it is safe vs 6-7 pools. I dont scout with drones at all (add this to eco advantage). Good overlord placement allows to spot the incoming lings in time. And spotting his drone, ovies allows for a good guess to where his position is.
- it gets spawn larva 20 seconds faster which is crucial in ling bane wars. It is also very good vs fe builds vs which 14 pool is not good enough.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you an initiative, you put the pressure on the enemy which is worth a lot to me.
- 20 seconds faster pool gets you faster 2 lings for scouting purposes. You just run around his base and see his tech with no casualties while he usually gets 6 or more lings just in case (while I make drones, eco advantage once again).
2) 5-6 roach rush. It gets the roaches 20 seconds faster, but with no ling speed.
In zvt I usually prefer 14 hatch for a number of reasons. In zvp I use 11 pool sometimes in a combination with gas steal to get 2 lings fast and put a threat of a runby with lings, but I like 14 pool into roach speedling rush much better (unless he expands behind cannons, and I dont feel like roach breaking him, I double expand, for which 14 pool is also better).
P.S. dont get overdrawn into math. The game is very dynamic. Try the openings in real combat and see how it feels, it gets much better results than raw math. As for the raw math you have a choice of around 100 minerals vs 20 faster pool + 2 larva, which is all short term in case you play standard with fe and mass drone. That is all you need to know.
Hey, its you! The OP. I am the guilty one of necroing this thread. I began experimenting with 10 pooling last month, and I came to this forum because this is supposedly where most the tactical and mathematical stuff comes from regarding what the best openings are and all that. And I came upon this thread after joining. You discovered the amazing diverseness of the 11 pool 4 months before me, even though I did play a bit in beta. I was experimenting a bit in beta, but ended up reading somewhere the 14 pool was the best economic opening for non rush tactics.
But since the economic loss is so small with the 11 pool, I now use it all the time. Even fast expanding the loss is still less than 100 minerals it seems. And the benefits seems to be tactical advantage in so many ways. I just won 3 ZvZ in row using a new opening I thought of, because I usually lose all my ZvZ games. I make the 11 pool, the queen, and then place 2-4 spinecrawlers fast and tech to mutas. Since I always go double extractors I get 5-6 mutas around 8 minutes in the game, having closed off my mineral field with the pool and spine crawlers. Usually catches them by surprise.
Metalopolis ZvZ 11 pool fast mutas.SC2Replay
ZvZ 11 pool fast Mutas.SC2Replay
Delta Quadrant ZvZ 11 pool fast Mutas.SC2Replay
Some of my latest replays. I had to macro in one of them, but I guess that happens sometimes. He did not see my expansion before late game, and was very focused on destroying my base. He claimed I was lucky even after I told him I won because I outmacroed him That match was the Metalopolis one. Another one I had to dodge a lot of banelings with my drones, but after that I surprised him with my fast Mutas.
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I always figured 11 Overpool to be a defensive build if you scout Forge first or a 6 Pool or an economically sound build with options for applying early pressure since you'll pretty much be going for early lings and Queens.
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On October 31 2010 00:25 caldor wrote: I had to macro in one of them, but I guess that happens sometimes. He did not see my expansion before late game, and was very focused on destroying my base. He claimed I was lucky even after I told him I won because I outmacroed him That match was the Metalopolis one.
You mean Delta Quadrant. On metalopolis you faced a very poorly executed 6 pool.
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On October 31 2010 06:23 Sidus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 00:25 caldor wrote: I had to macro in one of them, but I guess that happens sometimes. He did not see my expansion before late game, and was very focused on destroying my base. He claimed I was lucky even after I told him I won because I outmacroed him That match was the Metalopolis one. You mean Delta Quadrant. On metalopolis you faced a very poorly executed 6 pool.
Lol I never even noticed. Sending out the lings to scout... I hope he was not playing the top of his game, and that he was not in platinum league. But then he might have been like me once, just doing a six pool because of not knowing how to play ZvsZ with so few playing this race. But at least I was rather good at six pooling. Was a relief when it finally stopped working though, but hey, it got me into diamond sadly enough.
With the build I did, it would not even have mattered if those lings came into my base. Since a queen was up and a Spine was on its way. His last option would be to go for my workers, but then they are the real threat against the lings until my spine is up.
On October 31 2010 04:26 Conrose wrote:
I always figured 11 Overpool to be a defensive build if you scout Forge first or a 6 Pool or an economically sound build with options for applying early pressure since you'll pretty much be going for early lings and Queens.
An economically sound build... lol, you havent paid any attention to this thread have you? I'm sorry if the 50 minerals lost is not that important to me, Id rather keep my options open.
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I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link.
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On October 31 2010 06:53 XaggaH wrote:
I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link.
As the author of that thread, I can safely say that you'll find it claims the extractor trick is definitely better for an 11 pool.
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On October 31 2010 06:53 XaggaH wrote:
I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link.
True. But as the OP stated, when doing the 11 pool, the early queen makes up for this, since around 4:37 the 11 pool has 2-3 more larvae than the 14 pool, which makes up for the eventual losses.
Also I find it much easier to defend vs just about anything. I have lost against Terran and Protoss where they kept inside their base until they had a really size able army with everything in it. Terran going tanks, marauders, marines, medivacs, and the Protoss going zealot, stalker, collosus. In those cases I need to mix up my army as well. Roaches, Mutas, Infestors, maybe even Hydras.
But having tested this for months, it seems to me the economic loss between a well played 14 pool and a well played 11 pool is usually less than 100 minerals, with 100 minerals probably being more due to the 11 pool being pulled of badly.
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On October 31 2010 07:39 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 06:53 XaggaH wrote:
I've read somewhere on these forums that the extractor trick was proven less effective then getting a ovi on 9 (at least in minerals mined) I dont think by much tho.. If i find the thread ill post the link. As the author of that thread, I can safely say that you'll find it claims the extractor trick is definitely better for an 11 pool.
That thread is in fact what inspired me to go for the 11 overpool instead of the 10 overpool. Thanks
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can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing
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On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing
http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replay
This is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent.
The BO from what I remember is:
10 extractor trick 11
11 overlord
11 pool
16 queen
18 expand
18 overlord
18 extractor
Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field.
I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
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On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replayThis is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent. The BO from what I remember is: 10 extractor trick 11 11 overlord 11 pool 16 queen 18 expand 18 overlord 18 extractor Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field. I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
thanks dude!
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On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:
I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
I don't recall having problems spending larvae from the second queen when I did a 14pool/15hatch, with the second queen starting production at the main hatchery as soon as the first one finished. That would explain why my results came in higher than yours, if I had a second queen working and you didn't.
Even if you can't manage to spend the larvae from one inject, you can always put down one creep tumor instead of an inject, but the second queen is what takes the larvae advantage back away from 11pool, and you're going to want it anyway.
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On November 02 2010 01:42 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:
I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid. I don't recall having problems spending larvae from the second queen when I did a 14pool/15hatch, with the second queen starting production at the main hatchery as soon as the first one finished. That would explain why my results came in higher than yours, if I had a second queen working and you didn't. Even if you can't manage to spend the larvae from one inject, you can always put down one creep tumor instead of an inject, but the second queen is what takes the larvae advantage back away from 11pool, and you're going to want it anyway.
No the larvae from the second queen is no problem, the problem is if you get the queen right away, then the first queens larvae cant be used right away, and the second queens larvae just does not end up being much used at the 7 min mark, since it takes 50 seconds to get that queen and 40 more seconds to get the inject done. Then there is the drone spawn time, and they need to gather minerals.
Usually a second queen does pay off though.
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On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replayThis is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent. The BO from what I remember is: 10 extractor trick 11 11 overlord 11 pool 16 queen 18 expand 18 overlord 18 extractor Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field. I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid.
whats the advantage of this over going like, 14 pool 16 hatch? what race are you using this against? zerg?
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On November 02 2010 12:12 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 00:12 caldor wrote:On October 31 2010 21:31 Silent_Tao wrote:
can someone post an 11 overpool FE BO
something similar to the 14 pool 15 hatch 15 ol 15 gas...
im confused about the second hatchery queen and gas timing http://dionysus.dk/SC2/replays/AI/shakuras plateau 11 pool fe2.sc2replayThis is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. But to get a queen at the second hatch, and gas, it will need to be changed a bit. Start out with only 1 gas at the first hatchery, that should give enough minerals to both get a queen at the second hatchery and avoid leaving larvae unspent. The BO from what I remember is: 10 extractor trick 11 11 overlord 11 pool 16 queen 18 expand 18 overlord 18 extractor Then repeat on the second hatch. I would advice that all drones made from the first hatch after getting 17 drones on the minerals, and all the drones needed on gas, then move all new drones to the expansion. If its the natural expansion ofc. Because getting more than 2 drones on each mineral field in one base and only 1 on each at the expansion is not as good as having 2 on each mineral field. I did it without making a second queen or any extractors at the expansion, because it gave a higher income at the 7 minute mark. Queen at expansion takes 50 seconds to build and then 40 seconds before the inject is done. Also the early queen, both on the 14 expand and the 11 overpool expand makes for too few minerals for the larvaes from the first inject. Leaving those larvae stop larvae production for a few seconds. Which is probably best to avoid. whats the advantage of this over going like, 14 pool 16 hatch? what race are you using this against? zerg?
Its not supposed to be the tactic, so the reasons is: You do the 11 pool to be safe early, find the other player is turtling so you just go for the early expand anyway. The loss being less than 50 resources anyway. Another reason to make the other expect anything but an early expand, and still do it. The last reason would be ZvZ, finding that you the other Zerg is making a spine instead of early lings, so you might as well expand and go roach or someting.
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Have anyone tried to compare the double extractor trick to 12/10 then overpool build?
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This is one of my best 11 pool fast expand. ...
Have you compared to
10 trick 11 pool
10 trick 11 overlord
or to
10 trick 11 overlord 12 pool
?
The former has looked better to me, but I haven't tried all variations. The latter has the advantage of having no time with 3 larva sitting around. The pool first FE build that seemed promising was
11 pool 11 over 14 queen 17 hatch 17 over 18 queen ...
(I didn't try squeezing an extractor into it)
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On November 02 2010 12:12 Subversion wrote:whats the advantage of this over going like, 14 pool 16 hatch? what race are you using this against? zerg?
Caldor already mentioned safety. There are two other advantages:
* Earlier zerglings, should you decide to do so. (e.g. to slow a hatch-first zerg)
* More larvae due to early queen. If you make a non-trivial amount of zerglings, this means you can build more drones while still getting the same zergling count.
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EPT
