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Note: the thread name is supposed to be 11 overpool vs 14 pool. Sorry.
I've done a little test and here are the results.
11 overpool:
pool done at: 2:44
4 additional larva finished morphing as drones at: 4:37
At 4:37 mark you have: 23 drones, 224Minerals (effectively +200 as drones), 244Gas, 4 overlords, 2 lings
14 pool:
pool done at: 3:03
At 4:37 mark you have: 19 drones, 485Minerals, 268Gas, 3 overs and 1 morphing, 2 lings
About test:
- Same location so drone travel distances not an issue.
- 2 gas were done somewhere at 17 drone mark to offset the saturation point
- 14 pool was done with no gas trick
- no scouting in both builds
Results:
- Basicly it is somewhere near 100Minerals for 14 pool against 2 larva in 11 overpool. But at 4:37 you can have 4 additional drones with 11 pool which at mining speed of 1mineral/second will get you 80 minerals in 20 seconds (the delay between the pools). So the build will break even at that mark. On the other hand the 14 pool gives you faster 2 hatchery, so both the 100 minerals advantage and 2 larva advantage are very short term. Economically both builds are nearly identical.
- 11 overpool gives you 19 seconds faster lings and queen to kill the scouter.
- 11 overpool is much safer.
- 14 pool allows for fe with no production cutting.
- it may look as 14 pool is so much better economically because you get additional larva and spend money on them, so the difference may look like 290 minerals or more.
- 11 pool is very good with 1 base play. Going 1 base roach gydra gives you just enough larva for constant production. You would need to cut for fe though.
So generally if you want to fe go 14 pool, if you want safe play, 1 base play or early agression go 11 overpool.
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Did you accidently hit "Make new thread" instead of "Reply"?
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So generally if you want to fe go 14 pool, if you want safe play, 1 base play or early agression go 11poolover.
Uh, and this was new news when? I mean, thanks for doing the math, but common sense tells you exactly the same thing, earlier pool = more aggression but less eco...
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On May 17 2010 20:48 Darkalbino wrote:
Did you accidently hit "Make new thread" instead of "Reply"?
What? This is worth it's own thread.
I always appreciate some qualitative analysis of the game. It's surprising to me that a 11 pool would end up with more drones, but I'm assuming you just pumped drones nonstop. Usually when people go 11 pool or 10 pool, they use the first 3 larva for lings so that will definitely negatively affect economy.
I guess the most important thing I get from this is that...if you happen to go 10 or 11 pool and decide to not pressure with lings (maybe w/ proper scouting), you are not too bad off on your economy.
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its good that he did the test, but this BO has been known by most zerg players alr. 14 pool into 15 hatch.
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ehm i m a newb, so can you tell me what you mean with
"overpool" ??
thanks for help
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overlord -> pool on the same supply count
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so its about like:
7 Drone
8 Drone
9 Drone
10 Extractor Trick-> drone
11 Pool
10 Extractor Trick-> drone
11 Ovi
??
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Is extractor trick worth doing?
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you get those 11/10 drone count, in other way its not possible i think
or i dont understand those overpool thing :D
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you make extractor for just enough time to make another drone, then you cancel extractor... you end up with 11/10 supply! so you get to make 1 more drone before you have to make overlord
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On May 17 2010 23:27 epik640x wrote:
Is extractor trick worth doing?
Wondering the same thing. Is
10 extractor
9 drone
9 (extractor cancel)
10 overlord
10 drone
11 drone
12 drone
worth doing over:
10 overlord
10 drone
11 drone
12 drone
If you are going 13 or 14 pool and then 15 hatch?
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On May 18 2010 00:07 KaiserJohan wrote:Wondering the same thing. Is 10 extractor 9 drone 9 (extractor cancel) 10 overlord 10 drone 11 drone 12 drone worth doing over: 10 overlord 10 drone 11 drone 12 drone If you are going 13 or 14 pool and then 15 hatch?
This was settled a while ago.
11/10 --> 14 pool = 9/10 ovie to 14 pool
10 ovie is inferior, but I still do it to keep even numbers. It's like a 6 mineral difference.. nothing to cause people to go crazy and always extractor trick at a supply cap.
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On May 17 2010 22:30 Nitron wrote:
its good that he did the test, but this BO has been known by most zerg players alr. 14 pool into 15 hatch.
Nitron, the test was something similar to a scientific experiment where you test something against the standard. Obviously, 14pool is seen as standard. His findings are that his build is more effective.
The extractor trick is worth doing most of the time. It isn't worthwhile when the ovie is about to spawn. I believe you lose 6 minerals on the trick and around 2 seconds of the drone 'idle' time to gain a drone around 25 seconds faster.
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Wow... This is exactly what I came to this forum to argument for. Exactly. I even came to the same results to the second, two more drones around 4:36. Anyone here who argues against the 14 pool without a fast expand makes for a better economy?
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/708321516?page=6
Here is a thread about my findings I made on the EU forums. Sure was hard to convince anyone at all about this tactic. Most people seem to think 14 pool is the way to go in any situation except maybe ZvZ. For me, its 11 pool all the way. I started out doing a 10 pool, but you get more drones earlier, and less max drones on the hatch with the 11 pool.
Also the build order:
10 extractor - drone - cancel extractor
11 overlord
11 pool
16 queen
and do whatever from here, just make sure to keep larvae count below 3 at all times or the advantage will be wasted compared to the 14 pool. The queen should be out around 30 seconds earlier than with the 14 pool. The queen itself is a very good anti rush unit.
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This thread hasn't been posted in since May, but in response to your battle.net forums post, 14 pool is slightly better than 10 pool economically, assuming you get a queen ASAP and only make drones.
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Yes, I am sorry for reviving this thread. Thank you for the fast response though, also I was just surprised at how quickly this thread went silently away. But Cheerio really did have all the facts laid out right there. And several months before I even considered the early queen would actually make for an advantage. I did play around with it in beta, but I guess not enough since I have vowed to the 14 pool as the economic build for a one base push until 1½ month ago or so.
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On October 25 2010 10:29 Mainland wrote:
This thread hasn't been posted in since May, but in response to your battle.net forums post, 14 pool is slightly better than 10 pool economically, assuming you get a queen ASAP and only make drones.
Someone just told me about how you actually did not say what I thought you said. You are saying the 14 pool is better than the 10 pool for a one base build order? My point with the thread on the other forum is that the 14 pool is only stronger the first few minutes, but 4m37 seconds into the game, having 2-4 more larvae gives the 10 and 11 pool the economic advantage. Up until that point, yes there is a difference of less than 100 resources as Cheerio has already been pointed out.
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No more responses? Well, my build is to go for 24-29 drones and then pump out the offensive units. 6 of these drones will be on gas. This way I can make lots of lings, or roaches, or just focus on lings and have gas ready to go for mutas if needed. I upgrade as I need to, but I usually get the lair, attack +1 and ling speed in that order. Going for an early hatch with the 14 pool getting to the point where you have a strong attack ready takes longer, teching takes longer and the main problem as I see it, is being those 2-3 larvae behind the 11 pool BO. I will come up with some more numbers to support these 11 pool tactics. To me they seem much more flexible, I get to the drone count I want at least 30 seconds faster, and I am ready for just about anything those first 5 minutes of the game.
I found an easy way to show the numbers with help from this site  The build order calculator, it is pure awesomeness:
http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/
Here is a two builds to set up against each other:
The 14 pool:
9 Overlord
14 Spawning Pool
17 Extractor > transfer 3
16 Queen > Spawn Larvae
18 Extractor > transfer 3
18 Overlord
18 Evolution Chamber
18 Spawn Larvae
22 overlord
28 spawn larvae
34 spawn larvae
5:00 checkpoint
The 10 pool: (I cannot find a way to make it do the 11 pool, since the extractor trick does not seem to be programmable atm)
10 Overlord
10 Spawning Pool
16 Queen > Spawn Larvae
18 Extractor > transfer 3
18 Extractor > transfer 3
18 Overlord
18 Evolution Chamber
18 Spawn Larvae
22 overlord
28 spawn larvae
34 spawn larvae
5:00 checkpoint
Run these two through http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/ and see the numbers:
The 10 pool: (again the 11 pool should be better but not possible in that site as far as I know)
Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02
Minerals per second 13
Gas per second: 3.78
Workers on minerals: 22
Workers on gas: 3, 3
The 14 pool:
Time interval: 4:54 - 5:02
Minerals per second 11.5
Gas per second: 3.78
Workers on minerals: 17
Workers on gas: 3, 3
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EPT
