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Constants:
SCV Cost: 50
SCV Build time: 17s
SCV Collection rate: 1 min / s
SCV Saturation level: 22
Mule lifespan: 90s
Mule collection rate: 3 min / s
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First let's look at a few extremes:
If there are 6 SCVs, killing one means he will have 1 less SCV from now until saturation level. He will lose the full income of that SCV plus the cost of building one extra SCV.
This equals to 21*17 + 50 mineral lost (assuming the terran does not oversaturate to prepare for expansion). That's 407 minerals, more than a Mule could bring in (270)
If there are 22 SCVs mining, then it will only take 4 more SCVs for saturation. Killing one means it now takes 5 SCVs for saturation. That's 5*17+50 = 135 minerals. Killing a brand new mule is better. In fact, this is equal to killing a half-lifespan Mule.
Now obviously this isn't the kind of math we can do during harrasment, but notice that a Mule will always be somewhere between 0 and 100% it's lifespan - average 50%. If there are 22 SCVs, the short-term mineral gain (neglecting expansions) of an SCV is equal to what the Mule is likely to bring.
In this respect, unless you are planning to deliver a one-two kill against the Terran player, it is almost always better to kill an SCV than a Mule.
This does not even account for the fact that a Mule has 60 HP while an SCV has 45.
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My math isn't excellent on this, and there's a lot I don't account for, but I just wanted to point out that in the long-term, killing an SCV is a better idea than killing a Mule.
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yea but the thing is if you kill a mule 4 mins into the game with your reaper, then he will lose 270 minerals over the next 3 minutes, instead of 1min/second for the next 8 minutes
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hmm, good find. I will definitely start killing SCVs from now on.
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I thought SCV saturation level is about 16? I mean, 2 SCV's on a patch is a LITTLE BIT over-saturated, assuming one SCV starts mining immediately after the other is done, you'll soon see that after 2-3 trips, 1 SCV will have to wait for the other to finish mining.
Say you kill 1 SCV, he'd stand to lose 17(minerals per a new SCV build time) + 50 = 67 minerals.
But if you kill a Mule, he'd lose 3 x 45(half of the Mule's lifespan) = 135 minerals.
I thought the math is clear??
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On April 25 2010 02:32 duckhunt wrote:
yea but the thing is if you kill a mule 4 mins into the game with your reaper, then he will lose 270 minerals over the next 3 minutes, instead of 1min/second for the next 8 minutes
This is true, but if you're not looking for a victory in the next ~5 minutes, then you're better off killing the SCV.
On April 25 2010 02:35 Sky101 wrote:
I thought SCV saturation level is about 16? I mean, 2 SCV's on a patch is a LITTLE BIT over-saturated, assuming one SCV starts mining immediately after the other is done, you'll soon see that after 2-3 trips, 1 SCV will have to wait for the other to finish mining.
It's 16 SCVs for minerals, and 6 more for gas = 22. The opponent is responsible for managing how many are on Gas vs Minerals before saturation, and this means there is a direct exchange rate of Minerals vs Gas. Assuming the opponent handles this optimally, the mineral cost will be the same, but there will just be an equivalent gas cost associated with those lost minerals (if he has to pull an SCV off gas to replace the minerals he's losing.
Say you kill 1 SCV, he'd stand to lose 17(minerals per a new SCV build time) + 50 = 67 minerals.
But if you kill a Mule, he'd lose 3 x 45(half of the Mule's lifespan) = 135 minerals.
I thought the math is clear??
If he is under saturation though, he will be pumping SCVs constantly - this means he cannot simply 'replace' that lost SCV and get back to where he was. He will be short 1 SCV from now until he stops pumping SCVs (saturation)
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you should look at this relative to your economy. It can't be like thie for example, I can do the same exact analysis assuming infinite time, and I can say I should mass BCs instead of getting marines. but there exists relativity to the opponent. mules will be stronger to kill as it gives you a relative advantage for the next 90 seconds, assuming equal economy. also there exists saturation caps with scvs, so it ruins some of your numbers (1 min/s) as you increase your scv count. Unless the mule is about to die to time, always kill the mules first. The relative advantage is much greater.
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The OP erroneousness calculates the build time for the additional four SCVs when trying to find a value for killing the one SCV. In reality, it's only 17+50, plus a touch more that can't easily be calculated, but not an additional 17*4.
However, it also doesn't include that the cost to replace an SCV can impede building another building or unit, although it generally will have a negligible effect (you're generally chaining scvs anyway).
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On April 25 2010 02:44 Craton wrote:
The OP erroneousness calculates the build time for the additional four SCVs when trying to find a value for killing the one SCV. In reality, it's only 17+50, plus a touch more that can't easily be calculated, but not an additional 17*4.
This is assuming the opponent's CC woudl have been idle instead of replacing that SCV. The only time that should happen is if the opponent is already saturated. If he is not, then he should optimally be pumping SCVs constantly, meaning he can't replace that SCV until he builds the next 4 SCVs he was going to build anyway - meaning he is 1 SCV short that whole time.
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Also don't forget that by the time you can get a unit in to kill an SCV/Mule, he should have around 10+ mining minerals and minimum 3 mining gas, say, averagely 18 SCV's.
I still believe killing a Mule is way better. You're assuming everyone will saturate their mineral line, which is not true. Most people generally have 20 or less SCV's mining per base. Not only that, after 10+ scv's on minerals, each one after that doesn't have as much an important effect on your economy as, say, the original 8 would. Whereas the Mule, because it is oblivious to saturation, adds such a huge income boost to your economy.
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I swear to god there is gonna be masters degree offered for SC2 in universities in near future...
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Yes, in long term killing SCVs is better. But SC is not about long term, you don't try to cannon up and defend till you have 12 carriers and can tear enemy apart. You want to kill him at the first possible opportunity, that's why aiming at big but short-lasting advantagesd is more liked than things that will give you advantage over large amount of time. However if you are SURE that the game will drag - then it surely may be wiser to kill SCVs
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Just kill the mule.
Slowing him down 270 soon means his factory or whatever will be late etc etc.
Its a big chain event of slowdown and 270 short term is strong early game.
LOL!
Cmon ppl...
CMON!!!
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This depends on stage of the game in my opinion. Killing a mule gives you not just the economic advantage but it also gives you psychological advance because enemy will go: OH MAN he sniped my mule RAGEE. And if you kill scv he will think: huuuh I've saved my mule... So besides that he wasted 50 energy in CC which he could have used on extra supply (~100 min) or on scan. Other thing if you walk inside 22SCVs +2 Mules i think you'll start killing anything (maybe mule for psychological AD) and if you can kill 22 SCVs you can kill 2 mules with them. But as you showed with your mathematics SCV kill is better on longer run.Thank you for the effort to show us the difference 
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It depends completly on the situation. If the scv will life for 3 more minutes it will harvest as much as a mule in its full lifetime. Also the scv costs 50 minerals itself. If you want to dmg him in the long run you go for the svc cause the mule come back anyway you just denie it for some time - If you kill the mule you denie a certain ammout of minerals while an svc can mine as long as there are free mineral patches. On the other hand if you see him spawning a mule and kill it instantly it can mess up his macro in the next minute if he cannot support his rax/fac usw.
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i think killing scv's is almost always better considering they have less hp so you can kill more and you don't know how long the mule has been up.
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If you kill a mule while it is returning minerals you stop him from getting even more minerals since they dissapear into thin air and he no longer has a chance to mine them ~
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Obviously kill the mule, in the early game it will screw up the Terran's timing a lot more than it would to kill an SCV.
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There is another benefit to killing the scvs. Mules cannot gather gas or build, so killing scvs further limits your opponents options, and their building ability.
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Think it all depends on how much time the mule has left most times i just go for the SCVs on gas first really fucks the person up and if you are lucky he forgets to put some back on gas : )
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EPT
