EPT[D] Killing an SCV vs killing a Mule - Page 5
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
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Weerwolf
75 Posts
SCV's 39 – 45 1scv minerals per game-minute 78 – 90 2scv minerals per game-minute 102 3scv minerals per game-minute http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources#Mining_Rates MULE 240/270 minerals on any mineral patch total 160/180 minerals per game-minute http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MULE For calculation purposes, the max minerals gained will be used per minute for both the SCV and the MULE. Mineral loss per building time An scv gets 45 minerals p/m. 45/60 = 0,75 minerals p/s. 0,75 * 17 = 12,75 minerals lost during building time. Total damage for SCV's scv cost = 50. 62,75 minerals lost per scv, if saturation is 16 or less With 3 scv’s per mineral patch the loss is (12/60)*17 = 3,4. 3,4 + 50 = 53,4 minerals Additional damage The big thing with killing an scv, is that you can state that all scv’s that havent been build yet lose 17 seconds of mining time as well. Lets say that the 16th scv is killed, so after recreating this, all 8 future scv’s lose 3,4 minerals mining time, so 3,4 * 8 = 27,2 minerals per minute. If an scv is killed before 16 scv’s, every extra scv costs an additional 12,75 of mining time. So if the 12’th scv is killed, on top of the calculations done before an additional 12,75 * 4 + 3,4 * 8 = 78,2 minerals are lost if a constant scv production is upheld. However, these minerals are lost over a much longer timespan. So for short period damage: up and to 16 scv’s: ...62,75 After 16 csv’s: ......... 53,4 Long period damage: 12th scv dead: .........140,95 16th scv dead: ..........80,6 MULE Damage A mule gets minerals in batches of 30. It gets 180 minerals per ingame minute, or 270 minerals during 90 seconds. 270/30= 9. 100/9 = 11,11. So about each 11,11% of a mules time, 30 minerals are mined. This means, that if a mule has about 50% of its time left, 50/11,11 = 4,5 = 4. 4*30 = 120 minerals are mined. So what is the breaking point that it becomes more efficiënt to kill a worker than a mule? 55,55% 150 minerals 44,44% 120 minerals 33,33% 90 minerals 22,22% 60 minerals 11,11% 30 minerals ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZhcHMV8.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NmE96A2.jpg) So to conclude Short term damage Kill mule if 33% time left or more if low saturation Kill mule if 22% time left or more if high saturation Long term damage Kill mule if 55% time left or more if low saturation Kill mule if 33% time left or more if high saturation | ||
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eneyeseekay
239 Posts
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LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
On July 22 2013 23:50 eneyeseekay wrote: So basically, kill SCV's? Exactly the opposite based on the maths above. Mules are better to kill more of the time. | ||
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Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
IF you see the mule fall, kill the mule. IF you don't see the mule fall but you see it mining already, go for scv! (<- because for all you know, the mule only has 5sec lifetime left, so the damage you have done to it you could have killed an scv) | ||
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archwaykitten
90 Posts
Also, if you have a single unit like a reaper or a mothership core targeting down SCVs, a good player can often just run the SCV taking damage away and end up saving it. If you force them to run the mule instead, they'll lose more income during that brief window where a single unit is running. | ||
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Weerwolf
75 Posts
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m0nt
Australia80 Posts
scvs lose value overtime | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
I suppose if you really wanted you could base assumptions around a set of standard builds and standard timings and map statistical probabilities of the win/loss outcomes. By doing this for each matchup against terran you would be able to generate an applicable discount rate for various simplistic outcomes. These generated discount rates for different build openings should then be compared with what lets call a zero net benefit rate (the rate at which it makes no difference whether you kill the scv or the mule). Through the comparison of the statistical discount rate (dependent on the build) and the zero net benefit rate, you could determine whether to kill the scv or the mule. Note: It is entirely probable that upon observation of rates for a few statistical builds and the zero net benefit rate it could very quickly make obvious that killing one over the other will always be far superior - which one that is though i'm not sure (other variables such at the number of active workers and the number of command centers could also have a large impact upon the results) With all that being said, i've always thought it best to kill scv's unless you've seen a freshly dropped mule - the average mule you come across will have half its life gone, and killing it really only costs a terran 135minerals. source - double major in engineering and finance | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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Zeweig
Sweden189 Posts
The math is the same if you kill 3 scvs when he has 16 workers or 6, but in %, the difference is huge. So killing a mule will not according to the income be better over a long game, but remember that he will invest these minerals in either army tech or income, which means that killing a mule will: 1. Delay an expansion 2. Delay/weaken an incoming push 3. Delay/forcing him to skip tech The first one is obvious, the second one will force more units and less income from you, and the third will do the same. Thats why people love sniping the mules, because on paper, scvs are better, but mules will give you early economy, which will exponentially increase its value depending on investment | ||
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Sephiren
United States85 Posts
If there are only mules, kill them. If you don't see the mules drop and there are primarily SCVs, kill the SCVs. | ||
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
If you kill a mule, it goes away for a little while, but comes back when the energy regens. When you kill an SCV, it's gone until the terran stops making SCVs. Usually terrans will continue constant SCV production until 70 or so and won't stop until that point unless doing some sort of timing attack or something. Say you kill one SCV when the terran has 25 SCVs. He now has 24 SCVs and is building another. Let's say it comes out 17 seconds later. After 17 seconds, he has 25 SCVs again, but in reality he's still missing a worker, because had you not killed that SCV, he would have 26 SCVs at this point, so really, an SCV is still dead and not collecting. This continues until the terran stops producing workers, which can be a LONG time from then. EDIT: also, killing an SCV forces the terran to build a new one, costing 50 minerals, where killing a mule forces nothing. He will simply drop another when he has the energy. No extra cost to him. | ||
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Penguinator
United States837 Posts
On April 25 2010 03:01 The6357 wrote: I swear to god there is gonna be masters degree offered for SC2 in universities in near future... | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
Also mules have more health than an scv, a banshee needs 3 shots for example. | ||
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Darkthorn
Romania912 Posts
Lol this is ...interesting to say the least. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3291 Posts
Explanation: Oracle shows up in terrans mineral line, there like oh shit! got to run everything away. They take the mule and the scvs as well. In this instance you are already doing economic dmg since the mule is pulled off which is why i would go after scvs. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
By the way to everyone who wants to know a good way to see if the MULE is fresh or not, look at the energy left on the OC, if it is close to zero than it is still a new MULE, but if it has more than 30 than probably you should kill SCVs instead. | ||
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TehWyLD
Canada18 Posts
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