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On February 23 2010 02:54 Khaymus wrote:Thanks. These are the kind of responses that I love! It sounds as if the zerg cannot stick around on teir 1 for too long on this matchup.
Correct, but I guess a Zerg still need a couple of Roaches to control the Protoss so skipping them entirely isn't a viable option either I guess. If the protoss notices that you have no Roach Warren he's pretty much free to get more Zealots, skip the Void Rays and tech to something else and maybe expand faster. These are all according to my experiences. I may be on a wrong track.
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What are the zerg timings for hydras/mutas?
As many people have pointed out it seem like it's easy to defend vs ground on this map so you may be forced to tech. Bring up an AI game and see how fast you can get hydras? The void ray timing was 5:30 i believe
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Have you tried 1 queen early + 1 spore + transfusion to heal spore?
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Pressure with lings + first few roaches, see if you can break in. Tech that early should mean virtually no army. If you absolutely cannot get in (you don't even need to do damage, just run a ling into the base) sack an overlord into the base or rush tier 2. [[EDIT]] This post is based entirely off of SC1 knowledge.
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A spore colony is a good defense against void ray. It also gives sight against DTs or observers. You can heal it with your queen. It gives you plenty of time to get a spire or hydra den and helps limit protoss scouting.
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Upgrade burrow the very second your lair finishes. Burrow and some persistent micro will allow your queen to beat a void ray 1v1. However, it seems that some protoss are countering this by simply getting two void rays. While burrow helps immensely, you need to get some hydras, and fast. I'm not sure how effective a single spore colony would be, but I imagine it would do the trick just fine, (assuming you can uproot it and get in position as the void-ray will try to avoid it)
The idea of getting two queens may seem silly, but it's actually not all that bad. Use one of them to keep spamming larva on your hatchery, (or hatcheries), and use the other to crap out creep tumors. These are AMAZINGLY useful omg! Your queen can pop out a creep tumor, essentially an invisible creep colony. For only 25 energy!? Yes please! And then that new tumor can make another one? And so on? You can spread the creep allll over the map, giving you movement speed and vision!
I love creep!
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On February 23 2010 04:33 Haemonculus wrote:
Upgrade burrow the very second your lair finishes. Burrow and some persistent micro will allow your queen to beat a void ray 1v1. However, it seems that some protoss are countering this by simply getting two void rays. While burrow helps immensely, you need to get some hydras, and fast. I'm not sure how effective a single spore colony would be, but I imagine it would do the trick just fine, (assuming you can uproot it and get in position as the void-ray will try to avoid it)
Oh yeah I use to do this a lot. It works pretty well in some cases. I did it for my roaches though and this was just a benefit. The problem is that you have to burrow and the void ray can get some attack time in on your hatchery or some overlords.
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On February 23 2010 02:58 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:51 Khaymus wrote:On February 23 2010 02:48 Inschato wrote:
Someone in here mentioned the void ray requires twilight council, which is incorrect. Gateway -> Cyber -> Stargate = Void Ray. You are correct. No twilight council is needed. Twilight council is for templar and such. Twilight council upgrades charge/blink and allows you to build dark shrine/templar archives. It's intermediary tech, just like the citadel of adun was, and doens't enable building of any new units.
I think people are confused because SC2 armory has it wrong:
http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/buildings/stargate
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First of all, scout. If you see an early stargate, adjust.
Spore Colonies and Hydras are your friend. Once P has committed to doing a VoidRay rush and you counter it, you're going to be free to expand and will have a massive lead.
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As a zerg if they turtle tech to aa if they are super aggressive tech to aa don't need to get aa right away but make sure it's available.
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I don't think people realize how fast this rush comes out. gateway -> core -> stargate. I don't have the exact timings on this because I'm at work, but if the void ray comes out at 4:30, that's about when maybe the 5th zealot would have gotten there on an all out zealot rush. Once its in your base, you've got maybe 40 seconds before your hatch is dead. Maybe if he doesn't off your queen you can heal your hatchery once.
I've only had this happen once and I gg'ed immediately. I could see from the replay that there was another void ray on the way and there was no way out of it with the build I went (2 hatch) because I assumed a one base strat meant a likely early stalker or zealot push, so I prepared for that.
Lair is not an option, it takes a good minute to upgrade, and then spire and den both take about as long, not to mention cost at least as much gas as that void ray and his tech did.
Early rushes would work, but you'd have no idea that they were vulnerable to it. If you are wrong, you may lose your early zerglings and set yourself back. I'm going to make it a point to pressure early, but I don't know if it will work.
You can sac an overlord, but if he built a stalker, or he puts the stargate on the side of his base he knows your overlord isn't, you probably won't get a scout off. Overlords are very slow and I don't know if you can get a second overlord out there before it is too late. Actually this is only true of four player maps which is what I lost on. Two player maps overlord saccing should be viable.
Also, having multiple queens early, or even a single early one is not necessarily the best strategy. Sometimes you just don't need a ton of larvae. Watch some of david kim's replays, he sometimes waits until 18 supply before he gets a single one.
Anyways its unbalanced, but not a surprise. So are roaches. That's what this beta is for is finding this stuff.
After thinking it over, using my two hatch strategy, I could probably have out a bunch of zerglings to deal with the zealots that were running over, and thrown down a couple evo chambers and canceled the one he decides to attack, and then build a bunch of spore crawlers, and that might have worked.
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Dude you should do this things:
Most important: Send your ovie there and see how many gates he has, if he has 1 gate it means tech so you skip roaches(stalkers,immortals,void rays rape them) and go straight for lair(hidras mainly, with a few lings if needed), if he goes 2 gate you go roaches.
Less important:Dont mass that many roaches without a reason, if you want to be agressive just attack when you have 5 but dont make like 12 and do nothing.
And for god sake expand, you did the gas quite early imo, i prefer this path:
Vs 2 gate:pool->expo->roach warren->extractor->queen
Vs 1 gate -> pool->expo->gas->queen->lair->hydra den
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On February 23 2010 03:17 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:57 QuakerOats wrote:
I also don't have the beta but I'd imagine it's similar to SC1... if toss is going one base tech you generally have to either keep pressure at the ramp to try and see what he's doing or sacrifice an ovy. Why would you make a lot of roaches with absolutely zero scouting information and not even pressure with them? Read above about not posting advice if you are not in the beta. Most games are 1 base tech and the sentry/stalker can snipe an overlord easily. There's a lot of space to scout and to lose that overlord is extremely detrimental for a 1 base zerg who's getting those extra larvae within seconds.
There are quite a few people in this topic who suggest sacrificing an overlord. And how is that any more detrimental than your suggestion, getting evo and a spore? If you intend to sac an ovy you're not going to wait to rebuild it until after it dies, you're going to build it in advance. And I watched the replay, there's definitely not that much space to scout. An ovy coming from the Zerg base would easily have seen the stargate before getting killed by the (one) stalker which was at the ramp.
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On February 23 2010 02:19 LunarC wrote:
Just realized OP is stubborn AoE guy. It figures.
Realize that Void Ray requires a twilight council, which is very high in the tech tree. Complaining that having to use tier 2 units against a unit so high in the tech tree is ridiculous is just unreasonable. If you scout the stargate that early, pressuring the Protoss or getting lair tech and getting hydralisks would put you ahead because you would have a sizeable army in the end and the Protoss would not.
This is incorrect. I've been using Void Rays often in beta and they definitely only require a Stargate.
But yeah Desert Oasis is kind of silly. Though, if you pace your teching to theirs (lair at their cyber), they really shouldn't be able to exert ground pressure due to the huge rush distance.
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On February 23 2010 07:10 Battle wrote:
tech so you skip roaches
I don't think a zerg should ever skip Roaches. At least build a Roach Warren and show the Toss that Roaches may be comming. I for one feel much more secure if I don't see any Roaches or a Roach Warren at all for that matter. That means he's going hydras or mutas and then I can just skip the Immortal / Void Ray, have an easier time expanding and try to counter whatever he's going for. A fairly good Protoss wouldn't go for Void Rays if he sees no Warren and a Hatchery being upgraded to a Lair.
Zergs get early map control easy in the start if they just scare the Protoss in my opinion. Force the Protoss to build something he doesn't want or will be "useless" once it finnishes.
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I can't see why there is so much hate directed at the OP. He makes a valid point. Void rays are a bitch to deal with if you didn't tech as quickly as the protoss. I think the trick is to put pressure on the protoss early with roaches forcing him to either delay his tech or die. Then quickly tech to lair directly after you have sent out your first roach push. Get hydras ASAP. In case you are unsure if you will get your hydras out in time, make sure you have two queens to kill of the first Void ray.
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On February 23 2010 07:28 Derby wrote:I don't think a zerg should ever skip Roaches. At least build a Roach Warren and show the Toss that Roaches may be comming. I for one feel much more secure if I don't see any Roaches or a Roach Warren at all for that matter. That means he's going hydras or mutas and then I can just skip the Immortal / Void Ray, have an easier time expanding and try to counter whatever he's going for. A fairly good Protoss wouldn't go for Void Rays if he sees no Warren and a Hatchery being upgraded to a Lair. Zergs get early map control easy in the start if they just scare the Protoss in my opinion. Force the Protoss to build something he doesn't want or will be "useless" once it finnishes.
f roaches i don't need those shitter muta ling all the way.
This is all you have to do aganist low end tosses that work off turtle 1 base
http://www.mediafire.com/?lmmql123mmn
http://www.mediafire.com/?oz0eogfizll
This is just
10 ovi
14 gas
14 pool
produce workers
at 15 ovi
produce workers
when pool pops upgrade speed ling
produce queen and lings as much as possible
around 8+ move out if zealot rush hasn't happened check it out
wait for speed lings to pop
dance with the zealots try to remove them form ramp if that doesn't work use 3-5 workers to drone drill them
and now scout and harass probes
expo when you find you can't spend your minerals and hit 300
upgrade at any time to lair when possible
get mutalisk
win~
I know it's not all that it seems all in but it's not it's about early game harass and taking expos is key to producing mutalisk in numbers if initial wave doesn't work
it does require you micro a little bit but come on zerg macro is so easy when you can bind all hatches together
I'm still messing around to find a build that works with zerg doing FE aganist a rusher toss but i have yet to have much success against holding them off doing FE the build i'm using i start with against any toss where i am the favored works extremely well
Just don't forget to harass and produce some lings every once and awhile if the toss decides to go after you it's your decision on how to handle your expo and base i que up as many lings as i can take my 2 queens and all my workers to stop it usually works.
The ideal end game is ultralisk mutalisk with zergling to fill it in full upgraded ultra and lings when possible upgrade armor for mutalisk
I don't really feel proud of this build as i'm not a fan of high aggression openings.
But you can feel proud knowing this is not a all in or cheeze build it's just high harassment to stop potential cheezy all ins and rushes by protoss.
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Yea, After I died to void ray a couple of times, I stopped w/ the roach all-ins.
If a protoss 2 gates I might go roaches, normally I stick on lings, fast expand, and tech to lair really fast. Proper Scouting (don't be afraid to sac an ol for information if you -have- to) can really tell you where to go from here. Hydras or Mutas, the classic zerg choice ^_^ My method gives up some map control for stability...
If you get Lair w/ your first 100 gas, you should be alright w/ 2 queens. That particular map, i'm not sure though... Just giving my thoughts...
Numerous times I've failed to properly scout the 2gate rush, and lost my FE, and still been stable, and not very far behind. When the protoss zealot rushes and I'm FE fast teching and they fail to penetrate my main after killing my FE, I pretty much win when the mutas come out.
dunno, maybe got off topic, but just my experiences...
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I don't go hydralisk it still makes their immortals useful against me an colossi along with zealots
mutalisk are better option esp with the higher cost of hydralisk and the increased power of the mutalisk. they are on the same tech so i find it pointless to go hydralisk in zvp.
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uh why not spore colony? Its movable too......
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EPT
