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On February 22 2010 15:23 Biribiri wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?rmntkzydnm2Here's a Rep of FA(z) vs Liquid Nazgul(p), it's more of a timing practice. P had to build defense for a roach rush, and his first Void Ray came out at about 8min. If your P was making voids at 4 min, he should barely have anything, should have just bum rushed him with roaches.
Thanks for the rep, ill be sure to watch it. First person to actually help out  thanks.
Only thing I am concerned about, why doesn't the P just use a 5 min (I check my replay and it was around 5 mins) void ray to defend the roaches. You can get this void ray and have a few zealots to hold the ramp while it kills the roaches.
Also, I watched the replay...and the P does finally starts building his Stargate at the same time the P in my game actually got the void ray. (zerglings were on the way to harass but void ray could take care of these easily in this example)
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If you put enough pressure on Protoss, you should have a game-winning advantage before Protoss gets void rays out. One queen can take on a void ray pretty well. Attack a couple times, burrow, unburrow, attack a couple times, etc. The queen itself should be able to give the void ray a good fight. Otherwise, get hydras. Hydras counter stalkers and immortals so you'll probably want to get them anyways.
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just saw the rep, should have just attacked at 4min, before his void rays came out, ignore the rays break his economy and get lair at home.
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i saw a hydra and a void ray kill each other solo
im imagining that hydras cost less
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On February 22 2010 15:28 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:23 Biribiri wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?rmntkzydnm2Here's a Rep of FA(z) vs Liquid Nazgul(p), it's more of a timing practice. P had to build defense for a roach rush, and his first Void Ray came out at about 8min. If your P was making voids at 4 min, he should barely have anything, should have just bum rushed him with roaches. Thanks for the rep, ill be sure to watch it. First person to actually help out thanks. Only thing I am concerned about, why doesn't the P just use a 5 min (I check my replay and it was around 5 mins) void ray to defend the roaches. You can get this void ray and have a few zealots to hold the ramp while it kills the roaches.
you are a jerk. i and others in the thread were helping, but no one was babying you through it with a beloved replay. a man finds his own strategy.
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On February 22 2010 15:32 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:28 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:23 Biribiri wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?rmntkzydnm2Here's a Rep of FA(z) vs Liquid Nazgul(p), it's more of a timing practice. P had to build defense for a roach rush, and his first Void Ray came out at about 8min. If your P was making voids at 4 min, he should barely have anything, should have just bum rushed him with roaches. Thanks for the rep, ill be sure to watch it. First person to actually help out thanks. Only thing I am concerned about, why doesn't the P just use a 5 min (I check my replay and it was around 5 mins) void ray to defend the roaches. You can get this void ray and have a few zealots to hold the ramp while it kills the roaches. you are a jerk. i and others in the thread were helping, but no one was babying you through it with a beloved replay. a man finds his own strategy.
Thanks for yet another very quality post that helps what the whole thread was about in the first place.
I have tried to find ways to beat this...I did not just come here begging for help without first trying to figure out how to beat it myself. I am grateful for people trying to help...but most post are done without actually watching the replay and are usually general things like "get hydras" which does not actually help.
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On February 22 2010 15:31 Biribiri wrote:
just saw the rep, should have just attacked at 4min, before his void rays came out, ignore the rays break his economy and get lair at home.
hmm, you sure it was the right replay? At 4 mins the roach den just finishes...so no units are actually out yet.
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On February 22 2010 15:05 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:01 mOnion wrote:
queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery. I used a queen...a queen cannot take on a void ray by herself...I even microed her out after every few ticks of void ray. (so the damage would not keep building higher)
Sorry about some of the posters. It seems people who haven't actually used the beta recomend using queens which just isn't possible. Void rays have higher range and queens do crap damage. 1 voidray could kill multiple queens if microd right.
So that aside, here is what you have to do. I actually have been able to stop this even if I fast expo. If you can't get into his base but u saw he is 1 base cyber core, get both your main gases and a Roach Warren. Keep a ling outside his base so u can see if he moves out with Zealand n stalkers. If he does move out before void rays than you can just mass roaches and kings and fend it. If he never pushes just when ur lair finishes get Hydra den and make 2 hydras. 1 Hydra + queen = voidray death. So put 1 with a queen at each base. Then from there you can go Hydra or get a third and continue with whatever you want. Lair tech is actually pretty fast so it is the best way to deal with a fast void ray. I've tested this and even vs a toss rushing to void ray I am able to get hydras just in time. If he makes no units and goes straight to rays then he will get it faster. But if he does this u can send 6 lings and 4 roaches to his main and run him over.
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I think the biggest problem is the map. I hate that map, Desert Oasis. I think the main problem here is that zerg can't punish a greedy protoss teching that fast with ground units because the main2main ground distance is so long. Best thing I can think of is that you should simply get fast muta on the map vs p. If he doesn't get void ray, you can use the muta to get map control and expo, building up your economy while you harass him. Alternatively you could just go straight to hydra and try to turtle that way. Just seems to me that you should just be getting fast tier 2 tech no matter what on this map in this mu, and then figuring out ways to adapt from there, instead of trying to adapt a build that works better on different maps.
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On February 22 2010 15:46 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think the biggest problem is the map. I hate that map, Desert Oasis. I think the main problem here is that zerg can't punish a greedy protoss teching that fast with ground units because the main2main ground distance is so long. Best thing I can think of is that you should simply get fast muta on the map vs p. If he doesn't get void ray, you can use the muta to get map control and expo, building up your economy while you harass him. Alternatively you could just go straight to hydra and try to turtle that way. Just seems to me that you should just be getting fast tier 2 tech no matter what on this map in this mu, and then figuring out ways to adapt from there, instead of trying to adapt a build that works better on different maps.
This actually makes sense to me. Maybe it is not a match up issue, but more a map issue.
Perhaps on this map, Zerg is just forced to do a very fast tech build against P (which seems kind of lame being forced to play one way). Like I said...I hate this map and have it thumbs down...but Blizz seems to like to keep giving it to me anyways  .
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hmm first off all in my opinion i would do many zerglings cause so u cant stop zaelot push and u can set ure oponent under constant pressure. meanwhile u build a evo-chamber cause u build caprecy. then u play a min only and play more zerglings. then u build another hatch at ure min only and make sure that both minsources went good. then u tech up and build ultralisken with this combo u can run your opponent down without having fear against air because u mustn take care of losing something its an overroll xD meanwhile u can make another exe for getting more minerals and gas.
btw u wanted to know how to stop a protos air rush with this bo u set him under pressure and have the eco chamber to build spores so np and a hydra den isnt needed 
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khaymus your original post said u only played vs this strat once, now you are acting like you have played vs it 100 times and figured out all the timings and it is completely imbalance? LOL stfu troll no one else is having problems with it, i guess you just suck
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On February 22 2010 15:17 Bosu wrote:
You are not really taking anybodies advice. Obviously PvZ isn't an instant win for protoss because of void ray. However, you seem to not be accepting of anything other then there is no option other then to lose your hatch.
lol?
cuz u guys are giving him bad advice.
@ OP: just fast tech hydras off one base. u can get them just as quick as he can get a ray, and he'll be in serious trouble.
if u spot it late, imo, tech to hydras anyway because if u can hold him off even after he gets your hatch low, it's almost an insta-win for you
spore if absolutely necessary
grab about 10 hydras in the next 60s with spawn larvae and grab w/e ling u made at the beginning of the game and go roflstomp his base
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On February 23 2010 01:47 duckhunt wrote:
khaymus your original post said u only played vs this strat once, now you are acting like you have played vs it 100 times and figured out all the timings and it is completely imbalance? LOL stfu troll no one else is having problems with it, i guess you just suck
anyway...
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You say if you go for two queens you have no army? Well, he's putting his resources into Void Ray's and tech so he has no army either. Now you have two pseudo-hatches and he has more or less negligible air units.
But from what I've seen you're not going to take any sort of advice.
Demonstrated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113121
Edit: On February 22 2010 15:40 mOnion wrote:
nvm tired of arguing.
You are a wiser man than I.
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On February 22 2010 15:09 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:08 Biribiri wrote:
double queens. move the extra to your natural when it's up As I said before...he is building and sending more void rays to my base...so I would need to make a continous number of queens?
Nvm. I've realized you just didn't read this correctly and that apparently blizz lied when they said SC2 wouldn't be like SC:BW balanced/un-balanced depending on the maps. They even made the first map to prove this was a lie lol.
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A fast teching protoss vs. zerg is most likely going for a couple of different things. Some that come to mind is fast air like the OP is talking about, DT's, proxy robo bay, or +1 zeals with charge. From what i hear, upgrading overlord speed is very cheap and fast now. I would recommend gassing and teching to lair as soon as you see more than 2 zealots blocking his front or cannons. Like in SC1, its worth sac'ing one overlord with speed to find out his tech pattern, check for "what's missing" etc.
A few months down the road it might be standard play to get a hydra den or spire automatically for defense, or one spore at each expo to respond to this but idk yet.
I think the broader picture is that protoss is trying to find a way not to get run over by roaches. You'll be able to break his ramp with roaches easily if he's skimped on zealots or cannons, in which case his void ray will come out much later. Early aggression seems to be key in this game. I would think that the fast void ray would be more powerful if it's a follow-up to a heavy zeal pressure where you're stuck re-making drones.
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Just realized OP is stubborn AoE guy. It figures.
Realize that Void Ray requires a twilight council, which is very high in the tech tree. Complaining that having to use tier 2 units against a unit so high in the tech tree is ridiculous is just unreasonable. If you scout the stargate that early, pressuring the Protoss or getting lair tech and getting hydralisks would put you ahead because you would have a sizeable army in the end and the Protoss would not.
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On February 23 2010 02:19 LunarC wrote:
Just realized OP is stubborn AoE guy. It figures.
Realize that Void Ray requires a twilight council, which is very high in the tech tree. Complaining that having to use tier 2 units against a unit so high in the tech tree is ridiculous is just unreasonable. If you scout the stargate that early, pressuring the Protoss or getting lair tech and getting hydralisks would put you ahead because you would have a sizeable army in the end and the Protoss would not.
No the problem is he DIDN'T scout stargate that early because when he saw fast core he fled his ovy so stalkers wouldn't kill it. There are so many things, even on that map that p could do with a fast core, the problem is finding out which one. In this case p got a very fast void ray and z was unprepared because he was worried about all the other things p could be doing. If he scouted the stargate everything would've been simple. Any protoss worth his salt won't tech until he kills the overlord if he keeps it in the main, so that won't help.
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EPT
