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I am really confused. I just played a match where P just rushed void ray and attacked my hatch killing it before I could even get to his base to counter attack. This happened only 4 mins and some seconds into the game. With zerg having no units that can attack air until teir 2....how do we stop this?
When I did get to his base...he had a second void ray waiting to kill off my units that could not attack air. Is it really this broken or am I just missing something?
A little more info: I scouted with ovie as saw gate and cyber core...so I had to run him out so that he would not be sniped by the blink units (cannot remember the name for some reason). When I come back later to scout with a ling he has his ramp blocked by zealots. This makes scouting this build not a viable option...and even if it was, being forced to rush to teir two or lose instantly does not seem very fun.
Note: This was on that shitty 1v1 map where you spawn on the inside of the map and you are both very close to each other air wise...but ground wise it takes forever to get to your opponents base. It might not work as well on a 4v4 map. It does not seem like there is much you can do to stop this!
Anyone else having this problem / what are you doing to stop it?
Here is the replay:
http://uploading.com/files/1683e6ea/Void+Ray+Hax.SC2Replay/
When I quote your post and talk about it...I am not trying to bash you or say you are wrong...I am just discussing why that does not work. Please don't take it as a personal attack.
UPDATE: For any other zerg that might be having this problem...some of the good posts have pointed out these things...
1. Check the map that it is happening to you on. Could be that you just need to tech against P on certain maps.
2. Don't be afraid to sac an ovie for vital scouting info. I get stuck in this mind set that losing an ovie for scouting info is a newb move...but it has its place.
3. Look for ways to pressure with zerglings. Roaches are too damn slow to get to the enemy base on time...so zerglings are a better answer for pressure.
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queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery.
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On February 22 2010 15:01 mOnion wrote:
queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery.
I used a queen...a queen cannot take on a void ray by herself...I even microed her out after every few ticks of void ray. (so the damage would not keep building higher)
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Queens.
And just own the Warp Ray. Or just tech straight to Hydra!
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scout and hydralisk or mutalisk if you can't scout because he's keeping pressure up from zealots turtle in off one base and quick tech to those 2 units as that should be his transition with his cheezy build. Queen aren't really great aa they are really weak frankly if i was toss i would make sure my zealots picked off the queen.
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On February 22 2010 15:05 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:01 mOnion wrote:
queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery. I used a queen...a queen cannot take on a void ray by herself...I even microed her out after every few ticks of void ray. (so the damage would not keep building higher)
then make 2 queens. spores are good too if you have horrific micro, and she can heal buildings.
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On February 22 2010 15:06 Virtue wrote:
scout and hydralisk or mutalisk if you can't scout because he's keeping pressure up from zealots turtle in off one base and quick tech to those 2 units as that should be his transition with his cheezy build. Queen aren't really great aa they are really weak
The void ray pops out at 5 mins and 30 some seconds...I already explained how scouting was not a viable option...and you cannot just guess tech to muta and hydra every time you fight a P.
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On February 22 2010 15:06 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:05 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:01 mOnion wrote:
queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery. I used a queen...a queen cannot take on a void ray by herself...I even microed her out after every few ticks of void ray. (so the damage would not keep building higher) then make 2 queens. spores are good too if you have horrific micro, and she can heal buildings.
If I am spending all my money on queens to fight off the void rays that keep coming...I will have no army.
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double queens. move the extra to your natural when it's up
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On February 22 2010 15:08 Biribiri wrote:
double queens. move the extra to your natural when it's up
As I said before...he is building and sending more void rays to my base...so I would need to make a continous number of queens?
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On February 22 2010 15:07 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:06 mOnion wrote:On February 22 2010 15:05 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:01 mOnion wrote:
queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery. I used a queen...a queen cannot take on a void ray by herself...I even microed her out after every few ticks of void ray. (so the damage would not keep building higher) then make 2 queens. spores are good too if you have horrific micro, and she can heal buildings. If I am spending all my money on queens to fight off the void rays that keep coming...I will have no army.
okay now im pretty sure you're trolling
a tech to void ray that fast is expensive and risky with all the stuff zerg can do early on, you should be able to get a 2nd hatch and should have 2 queens anyway. queens arent enormously expensive and they're well worth the purchase.
you should also work on not getting food blocked and refining your build.
then tech while defending the void, hydra/muta should pop while your fending it off.
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On February 22 2010 15:09 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:07 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:06 mOnion wrote:On February 22 2010 15:05 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:01 mOnion wrote:
queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery. I used a queen...a queen cannot take on a void ray by herself...I even microed her out after every few ticks of void ray. (so the damage would not keep building higher) then make 2 queens. spores are good too if you have horrific micro, and she can heal buildings. If I am spending all my money on queens to fight off the void rays that keep coming...I will have no army. okay now im pretty sure you're trolling a tech to void ray that fast is expensive and risky with all the stuff zerg can do early on, you should be able to get a 2nd hatch and should have 2 queens anyway. queens arent enormously expensive and they're well worth the purchase. you should also work on not getting food blocked and refining your build.
My build does not get food blocked. Stop making assumptions. 2nd hatch would only make this problem worse. You have to be at teir 2 to have any units that attack air. Queen is not going to cut it. If I expand that is more money spent on not teching to teir two.
Ill try to figure out how to upload a replay so you can see...
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Russian Federation410 Posts
It's very simple.
Open with a few lings, queen and 4-6 roaches to stop any possible harassment, get some extra drones, quicker 2nd gas and lair. Put some pressure with roaches, as Protoss will need an equal amount of zealots + a canon on the ramp to stop them, - buys tou some time.
Go hydra den before natural, by the time t 1st void ray arrives you should have at least 4 hydras. You may sack an ovi to see if he commits to air, or seeing hydra/roach switches to colossus, if so, - get spire and mass muta, easy as you already have 4 gas.
I have a rep vs mtw.Infernal to back this strat up
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On February 22 2010 15:16 Go0g3n wrote:
It's very simple. You open with a few lings, queen and 4-6 roaches to stop any possible harassment, get some extra drones, quicker 2nd gas and lair, go hydra den then natural, by the time t 1st void ray arrives you should have at least 4 hydras. You may sack an ovi to see if he commits to air, or seeing hydras switches to colossus, if so, - get spire and mass muta, easy as you already have 4 gas.
I don't think you understand how fast a P can get void ray. By time you get few lings and 4-6 roaches he has a void ray. How do you stop that harass with units that cannot attack air?
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You are not really taking anybodies advice. Obviously PvZ isn't an instant win for protoss because of void ray. However, you seem to not be accepting of anything other then there is no option other then to lose your hatch.
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On February 22 2010 15:17 Bosu wrote:
You are not really taking anybodies advice. Obviously PvZ isn't an instant win for protoss because of void ray. However, you seem to not be accepting of anything other then there is no option other then to lose your hatch.
pretty much this
i've fended off early rays, and watched zergs fend off early rays.
you're either doing something wrong, trolling, being stubborn, or a combination.
how do you get to carnegie hall?
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On February 22 2010 15:17 Bosu wrote:
You are not really taking anybodies advice. Obviously PvZ isn't an instant win for protoss because of void ray. However, you seem to not be accepting of anything other then there is no option other then to lose your hatch.
I am not trying to sound like I am not taking their advice. I am just pointing out how I have tried most of all these things against it and nothing seems to work. The only thing that would come close to working is the multiple queen thing...but it is to much of a hinder of the rest of your game to spam queens to counter this early on.
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On February 22 2010 15:19 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:17 Bosu wrote:
You are not really taking anybodies advice. Obviously PvZ isn't an instant win for protoss because of void ray. However, you seem to not be accepting of anything other then there is no option other then to lose your hatch. pretty much this i've fended off early rays, and watched zergs fend off early rays. you're either doing something wrong, trolling, being stubborn, or a combination. how do you get to carnegie hall?
Please stop posting with generalized BS that does not really help the problem. If you want to help me out...watch the replay and then let me know what you think...otherwise stop wasting both of our time.
Example of good help:
Posting a replay of how a zerg would fend this off.
Example of bad help:
U suck fgt, l2p and just kill the void ray.
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http://www.mediafire.com/?rmntkzydnm2
Here's a Rep of FA(z) vs Liquid Nazgul(p), it's more of a timing practice. P had to build defense for a roach rush, and his first Void Ray came out at about 8min. If your P was making voids at 4 min, he should barely have anything, should have just bum rushed him with roaches.
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Try opening an earlier lair or FE (to justify the extra queen) and saccing an overlord to scout the stargate. After a while, you get a good sense of when to sac the overlord and from lair, you have many options.
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On February 22 2010 15:23 Biribiri wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?rmntkzydnm2Here's a Rep of FA(z) vs Liquid Nazgul(p), it's more of a timing practice. P had to build defense for a roach rush, and his first Void Ray came out at about 8min. If your P was making voids at 4 min, he should barely have anything, should have just bum rushed him with roaches.
Thanks for the rep, ill be sure to watch it. First person to actually help out  thanks.
Only thing I am concerned about, why doesn't the P just use a 5 min (I check my replay and it was around 5 mins) void ray to defend the roaches. You can get this void ray and have a few zealots to hold the ramp while it kills the roaches.
Also, I watched the replay...and the P does finally starts building his Stargate at the same time the P in my game actually got the void ray. (zerglings were on the way to harass but void ray could take care of these easily in this example)
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If you put enough pressure on Protoss, you should have a game-winning advantage before Protoss gets void rays out. One queen can take on a void ray pretty well. Attack a couple times, burrow, unburrow, attack a couple times, etc. The queen itself should be able to give the void ray a good fight. Otherwise, get hydras. Hydras counter stalkers and immortals so you'll probably want to get them anyways.
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just saw the rep, should have just attacked at 4min, before his void rays came out, ignore the rays break his economy and get lair at home.
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i saw a hydra and a void ray kill each other solo
im imagining that hydras cost less
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On February 22 2010 15:28 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:23 Biribiri wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?rmntkzydnm2Here's a Rep of FA(z) vs Liquid Nazgul(p), it's more of a timing practice. P had to build defense for a roach rush, and his first Void Ray came out at about 8min. If your P was making voids at 4 min, he should barely have anything, should have just bum rushed him with roaches. Thanks for the rep, ill be sure to watch it. First person to actually help out thanks. Only thing I am concerned about, why doesn't the P just use a 5 min (I check my replay and it was around 5 mins) void ray to defend the roaches. You can get this void ray and have a few zealots to hold the ramp while it kills the roaches.
you are a jerk. i and others in the thread were helping, but no one was babying you through it with a beloved replay. a man finds his own strategy.
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On February 22 2010 15:32 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:28 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:23 Biribiri wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?rmntkzydnm2Here's a Rep of FA(z) vs Liquid Nazgul(p), it's more of a timing practice. P had to build defense for a roach rush, and his first Void Ray came out at about 8min. If your P was making voids at 4 min, he should barely have anything, should have just bum rushed him with roaches. Thanks for the rep, ill be sure to watch it. First person to actually help out thanks. Only thing I am concerned about, why doesn't the P just use a 5 min (I check my replay and it was around 5 mins) void ray to defend the roaches. You can get this void ray and have a few zealots to hold the ramp while it kills the roaches. you are a jerk. i and others in the thread were helping, but no one was babying you through it with a beloved replay. a man finds his own strategy.
Thanks for yet another very quality post that helps what the whole thread was about in the first place.
I have tried to find ways to beat this...I did not just come here begging for help without first trying to figure out how to beat it myself. I am grateful for people trying to help...but most post are done without actually watching the replay and are usually general things like "get hydras" which does not actually help.
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On February 22 2010 15:31 Biribiri wrote:
just saw the rep, should have just attacked at 4min, before his void rays came out, ignore the rays break his economy and get lair at home.
hmm, you sure it was the right replay? At 4 mins the roach den just finishes...so no units are actually out yet.
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On February 22 2010 15:05 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:01 mOnion wrote:
queen
make one. how are you not using these yet? anti air, anti ground and its like a cheaper hatchery. I used a queen...a queen cannot take on a void ray by herself...I even microed her out after every few ticks of void ray. (so the damage would not keep building higher)
Sorry about some of the posters. It seems people who haven't actually used the beta recomend using queens which just isn't possible. Void rays have higher range and queens do crap damage. 1 voidray could kill multiple queens if microd right.
So that aside, here is what you have to do. I actually have been able to stop this even if I fast expo. If you can't get into his base but u saw he is 1 base cyber core, get both your main gases and a Roach Warren. Keep a ling outside his base so u can see if he moves out with Zealand n stalkers. If he does move out before void rays than you can just mass roaches and kings and fend it. If he never pushes just when ur lair finishes get Hydra den and make 2 hydras. 1 Hydra + queen = voidray death. So put 1 with a queen at each base. Then from there you can go Hydra or get a third and continue with whatever you want. Lair tech is actually pretty fast so it is the best way to deal with a fast void ray. I've tested this and even vs a toss rushing to void ray I am able to get hydras just in time. If he makes no units and goes straight to rays then he will get it faster. But if he does this u can send 6 lings and 4 roaches to his main and run him over.
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I think the biggest problem is the map. I hate that map, Desert Oasis. I think the main problem here is that zerg can't punish a greedy protoss teching that fast with ground units because the main2main ground distance is so long. Best thing I can think of is that you should simply get fast muta on the map vs p. If he doesn't get void ray, you can use the muta to get map control and expo, building up your economy while you harass him. Alternatively you could just go straight to hydra and try to turtle that way. Just seems to me that you should just be getting fast tier 2 tech no matter what on this map in this mu, and then figuring out ways to adapt from there, instead of trying to adapt a build that works better on different maps.
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On February 22 2010 15:46 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think the biggest problem is the map. I hate that map, Desert Oasis. I think the main problem here is that zerg can't punish a greedy protoss teching that fast with ground units because the main2main ground distance is so long. Best thing I can think of is that you should simply get fast muta on the map vs p. If he doesn't get void ray, you can use the muta to get map control and expo, building up your economy while you harass him. Alternatively you could just go straight to hydra and try to turtle that way. Just seems to me that you should just be getting fast tier 2 tech no matter what on this map in this mu, and then figuring out ways to adapt from there, instead of trying to adapt a build that works better on different maps.
This actually makes sense to me. Maybe it is not a match up issue, but more a map issue.
Perhaps on this map, Zerg is just forced to do a very fast tech build against P (which seems kind of lame being forced to play one way). Like I said...I hate this map and have it thumbs down...but Blizz seems to like to keep giving it to me anyways  .
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hmm first off all in my opinion i would do many zerglings cause so u cant stop zaelot push and u can set ure oponent under constant pressure. meanwhile u build a evo-chamber cause u build caprecy. then u play a min only and play more zerglings. then u build another hatch at ure min only and make sure that both minsources went good. then u tech up and build ultralisken with this combo u can run your opponent down without having fear against air because u mustn take care of losing something its an overroll xD meanwhile u can make another exe for getting more minerals and gas.
btw u wanted to know how to stop a protos air rush with this bo u set him under pressure and have the eco chamber to build spores so np and a hydra den isnt needed 
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khaymus your original post said u only played vs this strat once, now you are acting like you have played vs it 100 times and figured out all the timings and it is completely imbalance? LOL stfu troll no one else is having problems with it, i guess you just suck
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On February 22 2010 15:17 Bosu wrote:
You are not really taking anybodies advice. Obviously PvZ isn't an instant win for protoss because of void ray. However, you seem to not be accepting of anything other then there is no option other then to lose your hatch.
lol?
cuz u guys are giving him bad advice.
@ OP: just fast tech hydras off one base. u can get them just as quick as he can get a ray, and he'll be in serious trouble.
if u spot it late, imo, tech to hydras anyway because if u can hold him off even after he gets your hatch low, it's almost an insta-win for you
spore if absolutely necessary
grab about 10 hydras in the next 60s with spawn larvae and grab w/e ling u made at the beginning of the game and go roflstomp his base
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On February 23 2010 01:47 duckhunt wrote:
khaymus your original post said u only played vs this strat once, now you are acting like you have played vs it 100 times and figured out all the timings and it is completely imbalance? LOL stfu troll no one else is having problems with it, i guess you just suck
anyway...
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You say if you go for two queens you have no army? Well, he's putting his resources into Void Ray's and tech so he has no army either. Now you have two pseudo-hatches and he has more or less negligible air units.
But from what I've seen you're not going to take any sort of advice.
Demonstrated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113121
Edit: On February 22 2010 15:40 mOnion wrote:
nvm tired of arguing.
You are a wiser man than I.
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On February 22 2010 15:09 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:08 Biribiri wrote:
double queens. move the extra to your natural when it's up As I said before...he is building and sending more void rays to my base...so I would need to make a continous number of queens?
Nvm. I've realized you just didn't read this correctly and that apparently blizz lied when they said SC2 wouldn't be like SC:BW balanced/un-balanced depending on the maps. They even made the first map to prove this was a lie lol.
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A fast teching protoss vs. zerg is most likely going for a couple of different things. Some that come to mind is fast air like the OP is talking about, DT's, proxy robo bay, or +1 zeals with charge. From what i hear, upgrading overlord speed is very cheap and fast now. I would recommend gassing and teching to lair as soon as you see more than 2 zealots blocking his front or cannons. Like in SC1, its worth sac'ing one overlord with speed to find out his tech pattern, check for "what's missing" etc.
A few months down the road it might be standard play to get a hydra den or spire automatically for defense, or one spore at each expo to respond to this but idk yet.
I think the broader picture is that protoss is trying to find a way not to get run over by roaches. You'll be able to break his ramp with roaches easily if he's skimped on zealots or cannons, in which case his void ray will come out much later. Early aggression seems to be key in this game. I would think that the fast void ray would be more powerful if it's a follow-up to a heavy zeal pressure where you're stuck re-making drones.
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Just realized OP is stubborn AoE guy. It figures.
Realize that Void Ray requires a twilight council, which is very high in the tech tree. Complaining that having to use tier 2 units against a unit so high in the tech tree is ridiculous is just unreasonable. If you scout the stargate that early, pressuring the Protoss or getting lair tech and getting hydralisks would put you ahead because you would have a sizeable army in the end and the Protoss would not.
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On February 23 2010 02:19 LunarC wrote:
Just realized OP is stubborn AoE guy. It figures.
Realize that Void Ray requires a twilight council, which is very high in the tech tree. Complaining that having to use tier 2 units against a unit so high in the tech tree is ridiculous is just unreasonable. If you scout the stargate that early, pressuring the Protoss or getting lair tech and getting hydralisks would put you ahead because you would have a sizeable army in the end and the Protoss would not.
No the problem is he DIDN'T scout stargate that early because when he saw fast core he fled his ovy so stalkers wouldn't kill it. There are so many things, even on that map that p could do with a fast core, the problem is finding out which one. In this case p got a very fast void ray and z was unprepared because he was worried about all the other things p could be doing. If he scouted the stargate everything would've been simple. Any protoss worth his salt won't tech until he kills the overlord if he keeps it in the main, so that won't help.
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static defense is good. You can even use the evolution chamber to do something called "upgrading." It's a clever skill...
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On February 23 2010 02:33 Amber[LighT] wrote:
static defense is good. You can even use the evolution chamber to do something called "upgrading." It's a clever skill...
-1 eSports point for missing an obvious "useful talent toi have" joke.
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Disclaimer: I don't have a beta key myself yet, Though I very actively watch and read.
I think some of this is being over thought. Should you have a queen at 4 min? YES. Why? because the queen is an ESSENTIAL unit not because it specificaly counters void ray but you can harass a void ray with your queen so if you are having trouble with a voidray this is a no brainer, it's like saying the sky is blue.
You have to counter what your oponant throws. You can do this by scouting early and building apropriatly or by establishing a prefered play style and leveraging that for time to hard counter your oponants units. Something like a zergling roach timeing attack to pressure and buy time / scout (previously suggested in this thread). It seems to be common opinion that players will have to rely more on army composition (correct counters) then micro with the vast majority of units, the obvious exceptions being the casters. It's not like sc1 where if you just micro the vulture vs the zealot they still work. In sc2 the advantage a hard counter seems to give an army is something that can't be successfully ignored. Void rays are a hard counter to: overlords, overseers, roachs, broodlords, ultralisks and corruptors specificaly within the zerg army. Units that can attack air include muta, corruptor, hydralisk, spore crawler, queen and corruptors through spells.
The mobility of lair tech with the nydus network is insane, they are expensive so you should wait for an advantage or know that it's a risk but will probably turn into one of the linchpins of zerg play. (to have the network + 1 exit costs m250g300)
Finally, have you taken the view that your performance was pefect? If you are not a good player it could be a skill thing. I can't watch your replay without the beta stream or youtube would be cool. I am also not trying to say you suck, but suggest that usually you can make adjustments within a strat as well unless you have pro skill / apm and you are already familiar with all sc2 hotkeys etc.
This post was edited based on great feedback from Zatic, thanks.
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I somehow doubt preemptive spore crawlers against the myriad of things protoss could be doing from a 1gate core build is great advice.
eh Jaberwokie your post is kind of useless, sorry =/
And even with long ground distances it's not an island map. The paths aren't blocked off.
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Why are you guys still even trying to help this guy? He's clearly made up his mind that this build is impossible to beat.
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Yea I guess the main problem stems from this map. It is very hard to get a good scout in after you see core...if you are playing a decent P. So trying to cover all your bases against what he could throw at you on this map is tough. If you just happen not to cover void rays, the distance from your base to his is very very short in terms of air. Most other maps you can see it and quick throw down a spore or two.
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On February 23 2010 02:40 Biochemist wrote:
Why are you guys still even trying to help this guy? He's clearly made up his mind that this build is impossible to beat.
I think it is impossible to beat so I post on a forum asking for help how to beat it? Rofl?
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On February 23 2010 02:42 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:40 Biochemist wrote:
Why are you guys still even trying to help this guy? He's clearly made up his mind that this build is impossible to beat. I think it is impossible to beat so I post on a forum asking for help how to beat it? Rofl?
Yeah, that's the beauty of it. Read your first 10 replies. Ostensibly you're asking for help, but any time anyone offers advice you describe how anything you do can be countered.
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I don't understand the hostility towards Khaymus, he clearly presented a situation he's having difficulties with, and explained why he's having difficulties with it, and explained why he doesn't feel various solutions are valid. Most of you guys' responses aren't applicable at all to the situation at all, and then you wonder why he doesn't think your "solutions" are useful?
edit: Biochemist the solutions people were giving had no actual relevance on the situation in his game -_-
edit2: This situation is like if he was asking for help cracking open a walnut and everyone was telling him what to do with the walnut after he cracks it.
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Someone in here mentioned the void ray requires twilight council, which is incorrect. Gateway -> Cyber -> Stargate = Void Ray.
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Zurich15317 Posts
On February 23 2010 02:37 jabberwokie wrote:
Disclaimer: I don't have a beta key myself yet, Though I very actively watch and read.
Desert oasis is essentialy (for early game purposes) an island map. The bases are seperated by distructable terrain with no clear path. This necessitates a tech build full stop imo. Scouting will be essential so saccing an overlord if you have to / sneaky if you can, don't throw it away is what I am saying.
I appreciate the disclaimer, and even though you don't play most of what you are writing is correct, but: Desert Oasis is not an island and there is no destructible terrain blocking the mains. There are two clear (although relatively long) paths from main to main.
What you have been watching probably are the newb settings (I don't exactly know when they are in effect) where EVERY map has destructible terrain blocking rushes.
This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't give advice when you don't play the beta.
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On February 23 2010 02:45 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:42 Khaymus wrote:On February 23 2010 02:40 Biochemist wrote:
Why are you guys still even trying to help this guy? He's clearly made up his mind that this build is impossible to beat. I think it is impossible to beat so I post on a forum asking for help how to beat it? Rofl? Yeah, that's the beauty of it. Read your first 10 replies. Ostensibly you're asking for help, but any time anyone offers advice you describe how anything you do can be countered.
It is called discussion. You know where one person says one thing and then the other person inputs as well? Refer to my OP and see the disclaimer I have placed there about quoting people. I have had a few replys that have actually helped me with this situation...
Not to mention, most of the replys that I shrug off are the ones that are dripping with sarcasm and consist of "build a queen newb". Those do not really help. Any reply with some actual thought put into it is something that is very helpful.
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On February 23 2010 02:48 Inschato wrote:
Someone in here mentioned the void ray requires twilight council, which is incorrect. Gateway -> Cyber -> Stargate = Void Ray.
You are correct. No twilight council is needed. Twilight council is for templar and such.
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Gosh Khaymus, what's wrong with you? Everyone knows voidray is 5th tier tech and takes an hour to build. Only a complete noob who doesn't make queens couldn't stop that!
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My view of it as a protossplayer in the beta.
As a lot of people have pointed out, rushing for Void Ray severely lowers the amount of ground units you have early on. This can be exploited as a Zerg. I need to have some Zealots, a couple of cannons and maybe a Sentry to hold off an early Zerg attack with Roaches. This makes my Void Ray come out a bit later. Once my Void Ray is out and is at the Zergs base, they usually have 3 hydras ready to defend and sometimes an expansion.
The first two days I could use the Void ray to kill Zergs who just spammed Roaches. Now (when the Zergs have learned that a protoss can defend a Roach rush and tech to Void Rays) it's a method I use to force them to stop making Roaches and defend a bit more which gives me time to tech and expand. Atm Zergs are giving me the hardest time. They can get a lot of mapcontrol while I tech and take my first expansion, because I feel I can't really move out until I have charge, storm and maybe Collossi and Immortals. It's even worse when they manage to snipe my observers all the time so I can't see what their army is composed of. I'm hardly the best Protoss player so I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but now you've got my view of it.
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On February 23 2010 02:52 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Gosh Khaymus, what's wrong with you? Everyone knows voidray is 5th tier tech and takes an hour to build. Only a complete noob who doesn't make queens couldn't stop that!
haha
I know rite dude? Why am I such n00b? I should increase APM and then I could beat scrubs. rofl
On February 23 2010 02:54 Derby wrote:
My view of it as a protossplayer in the beta.
As a lot of people have pointed out, rushing for Void Ray severely lowers the amount of ground units you have early on. This can be exploited as a Zerg. I need to have some Zealots, a couple of cannons and maybe a Sentry to hold off an early Zerg attack with Roaches. This makes my Void Ray come out a bit later. Once my Void Ray is out and is at the Zergs base, they usually have 3 hydras ready to defend and sometimes an expansion.
The first two days I could use the Void ray to kill Zergs who just spammed Roaches. Now (when the Zergs have learned that a protoss can defend a Roach rush and tech to Void Rays) it's a method I use to force them to stop making Roaches and defend a bit more which gives me time to tech and expand. Atm Zergs are giving me the hardest time. They can get a lot of mapcontrol while I tech and take my first expansion, because I feel I can't really move out until I have charge, storm and maybe Collossi and Immortals. It's even worse when they manage to snipe my observers all the time so I can't see what their army is composed of. I'm hardly the best Protoss player so I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but now you've got my view of it.
Thanks. These are the kind of responses that I love! It sounds as if the zerg cannot stick around on teir 1 for too long on this matchup.
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If you see him going 1 gate and low zealots, why not overrun him with zerglings? You can easily do it. If he doesn't die, follow up with hydra, get spore to defend in the meantime if you have to - you may not need to if you are sending constant lings into his base and the void rays are defending.
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I also don't have the beta but I'd imagine it's similar to SC1... if toss is going one base tech you generally have to either keep pressure at the ramp to try and see what he's doing or sacrifice an ovy. Why would you make a lot of roaches with absolutely zero scouting information and not even pressure with them?
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On February 23 2010 02:51 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:48 Inschato wrote:
Someone in here mentioned the void ray requires twilight council, which is incorrect. Gateway -> Cyber -> Stargate = Void Ray. You are correct. No twilight council is needed. Twilight council is for templar and such.
Twilight council upgrades charge/blink and allows you to build dark shrine/templar archives. It's intermediary tech, just like the citadel of adun was, and doens't enable building of any new units.
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On February 23 2010 02:57 QuakerOats wrote:
I also don't have the beta but I'd imagine it's similar to SC1... if toss is going one base tech you generally have to either keep pressure at the ramp to try and see what he's doing or sacrifice an ovy. Why would you make a lot of roaches with absolutely zero scouting information and not even pressure with them?
Read above about not posting advice if you are not in the beta.
Most games are 1 base tech and the sentry/stalker can snipe an overlord easily. There's a lot of space to scout and to lose that overlord is extremely detrimental for a 1 base zerg who's getting those extra larvae within seconds.
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On February 23 2010 02:54 Khaymus wrote:Thanks. These are the kind of responses that I love! It sounds as if the zerg cannot stick around on teir 1 for too long on this matchup.
Correct, but I guess a Zerg still need a couple of Roaches to control the Protoss so skipping them entirely isn't a viable option either I guess. If the protoss notices that you have no Roach Warren he's pretty much free to get more Zealots, skip the Void Rays and tech to something else and maybe expand faster. These are all according to my experiences. I may be on a wrong track.
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What are the zerg timings for hydras/mutas?
As many people have pointed out it seem like it's easy to defend vs ground on this map so you may be forced to tech. Bring up an AI game and see how fast you can get hydras? The void ray timing was 5:30 i believe
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Have you tried 1 queen early + 1 spore + transfusion to heal spore?
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Pressure with lings + first few roaches, see if you can break in. Tech that early should mean virtually no army. If you absolutely cannot get in (you don't even need to do damage, just run a ling into the base) sack an overlord into the base or rush tier 2. [[EDIT]] This post is based entirely off of SC1 knowledge.
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A spore colony is a good defense against void ray. It also gives sight against DTs or observers. You can heal it with your queen. It gives you plenty of time to get a spire or hydra den and helps limit protoss scouting.
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Upgrade burrow the very second your lair finishes. Burrow and some persistent micro will allow your queen to beat a void ray 1v1. However, it seems that some protoss are countering this by simply getting two void rays. While burrow helps immensely, you need to get some hydras, and fast. I'm not sure how effective a single spore colony would be, but I imagine it would do the trick just fine, (assuming you can uproot it and get in position as the void-ray will try to avoid it)
The idea of getting two queens may seem silly, but it's actually not all that bad. Use one of them to keep spamming larva on your hatchery, (or hatcheries), and use the other to crap out creep tumors. These are AMAZINGLY useful omg! Your queen can pop out a creep tumor, essentially an invisible creep colony. For only 25 energy!? Yes please! And then that new tumor can make another one? And so on? You can spread the creep allll over the map, giving you movement speed and vision!
I love creep!
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On February 23 2010 04:33 Haemonculus wrote:
Upgrade burrow the very second your lair finishes. Burrow and some persistent micro will allow your queen to beat a void ray 1v1. However, it seems that some protoss are countering this by simply getting two void rays. While burrow helps immensely, you need to get some hydras, and fast. I'm not sure how effective a single spore colony would be, but I imagine it would do the trick just fine, (assuming you can uproot it and get in position as the void-ray will try to avoid it)
Oh yeah I use to do this a lot. It works pretty well in some cases. I did it for my roaches though and this was just a benefit. The problem is that you have to burrow and the void ray can get some attack time in on your hatchery or some overlords.
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On February 23 2010 02:58 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:51 Khaymus wrote:On February 23 2010 02:48 Inschato wrote:
Someone in here mentioned the void ray requires twilight council, which is incorrect. Gateway -> Cyber -> Stargate = Void Ray. You are correct. No twilight council is needed. Twilight council is for templar and such. Twilight council upgrades charge/blink and allows you to build dark shrine/templar archives. It's intermediary tech, just like the citadel of adun was, and doens't enable building of any new units.
I think people are confused because SC2 armory has it wrong:
http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/buildings/stargate
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First of all, scout. If you see an early stargate, adjust.
Spore Colonies and Hydras are your friend. Once P has committed to doing a VoidRay rush and you counter it, you're going to be free to expand and will have a massive lead.
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As a zerg if they turtle tech to aa if they are super aggressive tech to aa don't need to get aa right away but make sure it's available.
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I don't think people realize how fast this rush comes out. gateway -> core -> stargate. I don't have the exact timings on this because I'm at work, but if the void ray comes out at 4:30, that's about when maybe the 5th zealot would have gotten there on an all out zealot rush. Once its in your base, you've got maybe 40 seconds before your hatch is dead. Maybe if he doesn't off your queen you can heal your hatchery once.
I've only had this happen once and I gg'ed immediately. I could see from the replay that there was another void ray on the way and there was no way out of it with the build I went (2 hatch) because I assumed a one base strat meant a likely early stalker or zealot push, so I prepared for that.
Lair is not an option, it takes a good minute to upgrade, and then spire and den both take about as long, not to mention cost at least as much gas as that void ray and his tech did.
Early rushes would work, but you'd have no idea that they were vulnerable to it. If you are wrong, you may lose your early zerglings and set yourself back. I'm going to make it a point to pressure early, but I don't know if it will work.
You can sac an overlord, but if he built a stalker, or he puts the stargate on the side of his base he knows your overlord isn't, you probably won't get a scout off. Overlords are very slow and I don't know if you can get a second overlord out there before it is too late. Actually this is only true of four player maps which is what I lost on. Two player maps overlord saccing should be viable.
Also, having multiple queens early, or even a single early one is not necessarily the best strategy. Sometimes you just don't need a ton of larvae. Watch some of david kim's replays, he sometimes waits until 18 supply before he gets a single one.
Anyways its unbalanced, but not a surprise. So are roaches. That's what this beta is for is finding this stuff.
After thinking it over, using my two hatch strategy, I could probably have out a bunch of zerglings to deal with the zealots that were running over, and thrown down a couple evo chambers and canceled the one he decides to attack, and then build a bunch of spore crawlers, and that might have worked.
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Dude you should do this things:
Most important: Send your ovie there and see how many gates he has, if he has 1 gate it means tech so you skip roaches(stalkers,immortals,void rays rape them) and go straight for lair(hidras mainly, with a few lings if needed), if he goes 2 gate you go roaches.
Less important:Dont mass that many roaches without a reason, if you want to be agressive just attack when you have 5 but dont make like 12 and do nothing.
And for god sake expand, you did the gas quite early imo, i prefer this path:
Vs 2 gate:pool->expo->roach warren->extractor->queen
Vs 1 gate -> pool->expo->gas->queen->lair->hydra den
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On February 23 2010 03:17 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:57 QuakerOats wrote:
I also don't have the beta but I'd imagine it's similar to SC1... if toss is going one base tech you generally have to either keep pressure at the ramp to try and see what he's doing or sacrifice an ovy. Why would you make a lot of roaches with absolutely zero scouting information and not even pressure with them? Read above about not posting advice if you are not in the beta. Most games are 1 base tech and the sentry/stalker can snipe an overlord easily. There's a lot of space to scout and to lose that overlord is extremely detrimental for a 1 base zerg who's getting those extra larvae within seconds.
There are quite a few people in this topic who suggest sacrificing an overlord. And how is that any more detrimental than your suggestion, getting evo and a spore? If you intend to sac an ovy you're not going to wait to rebuild it until after it dies, you're going to build it in advance. And I watched the replay, there's definitely not that much space to scout. An ovy coming from the Zerg base would easily have seen the stargate before getting killed by the (one) stalker which was at the ramp.
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On February 23 2010 02:19 LunarC wrote:
Just realized OP is stubborn AoE guy. It figures.
Realize that Void Ray requires a twilight council, which is very high in the tech tree. Complaining that having to use tier 2 units against a unit so high in the tech tree is ridiculous is just unreasonable. If you scout the stargate that early, pressuring the Protoss or getting lair tech and getting hydralisks would put you ahead because you would have a sizeable army in the end and the Protoss would not.
This is incorrect. I've been using Void Rays often in beta and they definitely only require a Stargate.
But yeah Desert Oasis is kind of silly. Though, if you pace your teching to theirs (lair at their cyber), they really shouldn't be able to exert ground pressure due to the huge rush distance.
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On February 23 2010 07:10 Battle wrote:
tech so you skip roaches
I don't think a zerg should ever skip Roaches. At least build a Roach Warren and show the Toss that Roaches may be comming. I for one feel much more secure if I don't see any Roaches or a Roach Warren at all for that matter. That means he's going hydras or mutas and then I can just skip the Immortal / Void Ray, have an easier time expanding and try to counter whatever he's going for. A fairly good Protoss wouldn't go for Void Rays if he sees no Warren and a Hatchery being upgraded to a Lair.
Zergs get early map control easy in the start if they just scare the Protoss in my opinion. Force the Protoss to build something he doesn't want or will be "useless" once it finnishes.
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I can't see why there is so much hate directed at the OP. He makes a valid point. Void rays are a bitch to deal with if you didn't tech as quickly as the protoss. I think the trick is to put pressure on the protoss early with roaches forcing him to either delay his tech or die. Then quickly tech to lair directly after you have sent out your first roach push. Get hydras ASAP. In case you are unsure if you will get your hydras out in time, make sure you have two queens to kill of the first Void ray.
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On February 23 2010 07:28 Derby wrote:I don't think a zerg should ever skip Roaches. At least build a Roach Warren and show the Toss that Roaches may be comming. I for one feel much more secure if I don't see any Roaches or a Roach Warren at all for that matter. That means he's going hydras or mutas and then I can just skip the Immortal / Void Ray, have an easier time expanding and try to counter whatever he's going for. A fairly good Protoss wouldn't go for Void Rays if he sees no Warren and a Hatchery being upgraded to a Lair. Zergs get early map control easy in the start if they just scare the Protoss in my opinion. Force the Protoss to build something he doesn't want or will be "useless" once it finnishes.
f roaches i don't need those shitter muta ling all the way.
This is all you have to do aganist low end tosses that work off turtle 1 base
http://www.mediafire.com/?lmmql123mmn
http://www.mediafire.com/?oz0eogfizll
This is just
10 ovi
14 gas
14 pool
produce workers
at 15 ovi
produce workers
when pool pops upgrade speed ling
produce queen and lings as much as possible
around 8+ move out if zealot rush hasn't happened check it out
wait for speed lings to pop
dance with the zealots try to remove them form ramp if that doesn't work use 3-5 workers to drone drill them
and now scout and harass probes
expo when you find you can't spend your minerals and hit 300
upgrade at any time to lair when possible
get mutalisk
win~
I know it's not all that it seems all in but it's not it's about early game harass and taking expos is key to producing mutalisk in numbers if initial wave doesn't work
it does require you micro a little bit but come on zerg macro is so easy when you can bind all hatches together
I'm still messing around to find a build that works with zerg doing FE aganist a rusher toss but i have yet to have much success against holding them off doing FE the build i'm using i start with against any toss where i am the favored works extremely well
Just don't forget to harass and produce some lings every once and awhile if the toss decides to go after you it's your decision on how to handle your expo and base i que up as many lings as i can take my 2 queens and all my workers to stop it usually works.
The ideal end game is ultralisk mutalisk with zergling to fill it in full upgraded ultra and lings when possible upgrade armor for mutalisk
I don't really feel proud of this build as i'm not a fan of high aggression openings.
But you can feel proud knowing this is not a all in or cheeze build it's just high harassment to stop potential cheezy all ins and rushes by protoss.
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Yea, After I died to void ray a couple of times, I stopped w/ the roach all-ins.
If a protoss 2 gates I might go roaches, normally I stick on lings, fast expand, and tech to lair really fast. Proper Scouting (don't be afraid to sac an ol for information if you -have- to) can really tell you where to go from here. Hydras or Mutas, the classic zerg choice ^_^ My method gives up some map control for stability...
If you get Lair w/ your first 100 gas, you should be alright w/ 2 queens. That particular map, i'm not sure though... Just giving my thoughts...
Numerous times I've failed to properly scout the 2gate rush, and lost my FE, and still been stable, and not very far behind. When the protoss zealot rushes and I'm FE fast teching and they fail to penetrate my main after killing my FE, I pretty much win when the mutas come out.
dunno, maybe got off topic, but just my experiences...
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I don't go hydralisk it still makes their immortals useful against me an colossi along with zealots
mutalisk are better option esp with the higher cost of hydralisk and the increased power of the mutalisk. they are on the same tech so i find it pointless to go hydralisk in zvp.
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uh why not spore colony? Its movable too......
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The issue isn't ability to defend against it it's the lack of scouting by them and proper prep for it.
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I was going to do an early void ray on zerg but i got rushed by 6 lings. i thought it was just 1 wave so i used all my probes, but zerg continuously attacked me with lings and i couldn't recover as fast, so he harassed me long enough to finish me with roaches.
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Two things i saw that you didn't do 1 was scout. At the start you moved a overlord there then sent him off to the end of the map. Second was the strategy you went for was i am guessing to just rush him with roaches ? If you just produced a zergling/drone mix you would have had ample time to either put up another hatchery or upgrade to lair and still had a good minute and a half to attack or if you went the lair route make a hydra den and probably get one out. You spent all your resources assuming your opponent was making zealot or stalkers and then when he decided to rush you you call it an exploit(only exploit is him exploiting your strat with a rush that you cant recover from) but the fact is it isn't and while hard to counter it really depends on a better starting strategy then the one you had. Also Scout!
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Zurich15317 Posts
On February 23 2010 11:24 zergpower123 wrote:
uh why not spore colony? Its movable too......
Spore is no help because of the void rays range. You need like 3 to cover 1 hatchery. You can use them to stall for hydras though with constant uprooting and as cover for the queen.
I have been using abusing the ray rush yesterday to try it out, it's absurd how fast it is. I proxied the stargate so it won't be scouted and the Z feels safe. You can almost hear them scream in nerd rage as you grill their hatchery. Doesn't help that P usually can't defend vs the all-in counter as well but still wins by eliminating them.
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On February 24 2010 22:35 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 11:24 zergpower123 wrote:
uh why not spore colony? Its movable too...... Spore is no help because of the void rays range. You need like 3 to cover 1 hatchery. You can use them to stall for hydras though with constant uprooting and as cover for the queen. I have been using abusing the ray rush yesterday to try it out, it's absurd how fast it is. I proxied the stargate so it won't be scouted and the Z feels safe. You can almost hear them scream in nerd rage as you grill their hatchery. Doesn't help that P usually can't defend vs the all-in counter as well but still wins by eliminating them.
Wow I did not even think of P poxying this against me *shudders*
I have finally got comfortable keeping a good scout on their base during this window...now I have to worry about proxy lol!
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Netherlands19129 Posts
Proxy 10/10 gate with chrono saved up for zeals vs Z who expand fast is hylarious as well XD. Esp when I follow it up with a voidray or two lol.
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I've had people wall off completely + cannons and neglect zeals. This makes the counter quite eff-tarded to pull off. Specially on maps like desert oasis where the air distance is so short + long ground distance (gauntlet anyone?).
This particular flavor of void ray pops one at 6:00. Arrives at my base 6:15-ish if close pos/desertoasis, little longer if far. In either case, my build gives me the first hydra popping at 6:54. I'm wondering about getting two queens so I can defend that 1st void ray + expo nicely, giving me the 2nd queen at 6:20.
13p
14g
15ov
15roach (skipped if I scout fast enough)
**queen after pool
@100gas lair
20/21 expo
**2nd queen after lair
Any tried and true builds that work nicer? My current formulation is a shot in the dark...I'm not sure how this will hold up for a 2nd void ray.
p.s. I find it ironic how if something had a longass ground distance compared to air distance it was a massive z favored map in sc1. The tables have turned.
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Just and update from me since this post seems to keep poping up...
This has become very easy to deal with now. Experience with scouting and just getting a better feel for the game makes it much easier to deal with. Usually seeing a quick core means you are safe to tech to hydras...which is decent against most early - mid game Protoss armys (when combined with other units.
The hydra's of course are a great counter to these air units...but you have to know when and where to scout properly.
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I won a hilarious amount of PvZs just doing the void ray rush, getting no more than 2 void rays in the game and usually taking out the main hatch (and queen) before my second one got there. The great thing about it (from the P perspective), is that you know you can force a drastic reaction from most Zergs ie. going mass hydra/corruptor/whatever.
However, it seems that 2 queens can easily hold off two, maybe more, void rays, so in those games it hasn't worked so well. I haven't really been doing it that much since a failed a few in a row.
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I'm a P player that spent a lot of time perfecting the void ray timings against computers, only to discover my own hard counter.
Use your overlord to scout. No matter what to map, you should be able to get to their base before the void ray is built. Once you see the Stargate building a void ray, build a second queen. Two queens completely shut down void ray attacks. You need the second queen anyways, and Protoss just wasted minerals on the Stargate and the void rays.
Another counter is heavy zerglings at the start. Protoss won't have many zealots since fast teching void rays takes so much resources. You'll be able to plow through a fully sealed wall even.
The last thing you can do is just to fast tech to hydras. You'll get hydras out faster than the void ray will show up. The problem is that if you were going roaches and then you scout their void ray, there's no time to switch to hydras, so for a response to void rays, go queen, if you were going hydras in the first place, just don't worry about protoss air at all.
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On February 22 2010 15:17 Khaymus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:16 Go0g3n wrote:
It's very simple. You open with a few lings, queen and 4-6 roaches to stop any possible harassment, get some extra drones, quicker 2nd gas and lair, go hydra den then natural, by the time t 1st void ray arrives you should have at least 4 hydras. You may sack an ovi to see if he commits to air, or seeing hydras switches to colossus, if so, - get spire and mass muta, easy as you already have 4 gas. I don't think you understand how fast a P can get void ray. By time you get few lings and 4-6 roaches he has a void ray. How do you stop that harass with units that cannot attack air?
Sounds like you're doing a typical roach rush.
Don't go roach rush it's that simple
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On March 11 2010 14:50 Chairman Ray wrote:
I'm a P player that spent a lot of time perfecting the void ray timings against computers, only to discover my own hard counter.
Use your overlord to scout. No matter what to map, you should be able to get to their base before the void ray is built. Once you see the Stargate building a void ray, build a second queen. Two queens completely shut down void ray attacks. You need the second queen anyways, and Protoss just wasted minerals on the Stargate and the void rays.
Another counter is heavy zerglings at the start. Protoss won't have many zealots since fast teching void rays takes so much resources. You'll be able to plow through a fully sealed wall even.
The last thing you can do is just to fast tech to hydras. You'll get hydras out faster than the void ray will show up. The problem is that if you were going roaches and then you scout their void ray, there's no time to switch to hydras, so for a response to void rays, go queen, if you were going hydras in the first place, just don't worry about protoss air at all.
If you tech strait to hydras, there's still no reason for it to come out before the voidray. On a 14 gas, they come out at almost 7 minutes, void ray is 6, that's also the slower variety of the void ray build. Also, a tightly sealed wall with no zealots would be breakable by ling if there were no cannons warping behind it. Also the scout probe would notice if there was a ling opening at which point they'd throw some zealot meat in front of the building wall.
I forgot to add on my earlier post that there is a drone scout out at 11 (extractor trick) so I can get a pretty good idea when there is voidrays coming. Just not sure what exactly is the optimal build still.
Can someone with real data and a solid build please drop in 2 cents? Yes, for the last time we know hydras kill voidrays, that's not the question here.
hydras do not come out before 6 minutes.
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hydras do not come out before 6 minutes.
I think even the CPU on very easy has its first Hydra out before the 5 min mark.
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I normally play queen heavy i usually produce 2 queens per hatchery to lay eggs i like to spread alot of creep, so the play style i've adapted works well against easily void rays and 4 queens can handle 2 3 void rays pretty well.
But this only is if i'm not going my 14 gas speed build becuase else i pretty much reach mutalisk the same time if they were teaching to void rays.
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On March 11 2010 16:53 DaVinci wrote:I think even the CPU on very easy has its first Hydra out before the 5 min mark.
If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing.
On March 11 2010 17:06 Virtue wrote:
I normally play queen heavy i usually produce 2 queens per hatchery to lay eggs i like to spread alot of creep, so the play style i've adapted works well against easily void rays and 4 queens can handle 2 3 void rays pretty well.
But this only is if i'm not going my 14 gas speed build becuase else i pretty much reach mutalisk the same time if they were teaching to void rays.
How exactly does this work? You can only inject once, after all, and the queen always has enough energy for the next inject. If you delay the inject a couple of seconds you have enough for a tumor, of which can just keep spawning new ones without the queen. Also, I'm not sure you're facing the same thing being discussed right now, it's not possible for muta to come first in the scenario OP is discussing.
Does that extra early queen set you back?
On March 11 2010 15:01 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:17 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:16 Go0g3n wrote:
It's very simple. You open with a few lings, queen and 4-6 roaches to stop any possible harassment, get some extra drones, quicker 2nd gas and lair, go hydra den then natural, by the time t 1st void ray arrives you should have at least 4 hydras. You may sack an ovi to see if he commits to air, or seeing hydras switches to colossus, if so, - get spire and mass muta, easy as you already have 4 gas. I don't think you understand how fast a P can get void ray. By time you get few lings and 4-6 roaches he has a void ray. How do you stop that harass with units that cannot attack air? Sounds like you're doing a typical roach rush. Don't go roach rush it's that simple
he's right of course, if you get em you better be using em. Then again that isn't the greatest idea most of the time when the 2nd void ray kills ur rush. I actually completely skip the roach warren when I see the stargate or if I suspect proxy stargate.
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On March 11 2010 15:01 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 15:17 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:16 Go0g3n wrote:
It's very simple. You open with a few lings, queen and 4-6 roaches to stop any possible harassment, get some extra drones, quicker 2nd gas and lair, go hydra den then natural, by the time t 1st void ray arrives you should have at least 4 hydras. You may sack an ovi to see if he commits to air, or seeing hydras switches to colossus, if so, - get spire and mass muta, easy as you already have 4 gas. I don't think you understand how fast a P can get void ray. By time you get few lings and 4-6 roaches he has a void ray. How do you stop that harass with units that cannot attack air? Sounds like you're doing a typical roach rush. Don't go roach rush it's that simple
you should have your name changed to "orbitter"
hahaha
what's he supposed to use against zealots? ling? pft.
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On March 11 2010 17:29 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 15:01 -orb- wrote:On February 22 2010 15:17 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:16 Go0g3n wrote:
It's very simple. You open with a few lings, queen and 4-6 roaches to stop any possible harassment, get some extra drones, quicker 2nd gas and lair, go hydra den then natural, by the time t 1st void ray arrives you should have at least 4 hydras. You may sack an ovi to see if he commits to air, or seeing hydras switches to colossus, if so, - get spire and mass muta, easy as you already have 4 gas. I don't think you understand how fast a P can get void ray. By time you get few lings and 4-6 roaches he has a void ray. How do you stop that harass with units that cannot attack air? Sounds like you're doing a typical roach rush. Don't go roach rush it's that simple you should have your name changed to "orbitter" hahaha what's he supposed to use against zealots? ling? pft.
drone or ovie will tell if there are 2+ gates to worry bout, vs tech you really don't need roach. The queen and a few ling can handle just fine.
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If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing.
Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes.
Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries.
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On February 22 2010 15:19 mOnion wrote:
[
how do you get to carnegie hall?
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!
to OP void rays suck vs masses of units. when you see him going for early starport( sac an ovie) get hydra den and get like 5 hydras= dead void ray.
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On March 11 2010 17:29 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 15:01 -orb- wrote:On February 22 2010 15:17 Khaymus wrote:On February 22 2010 15:16 Go0g3n wrote:
It's very simple. You open with a few lings, queen and 4-6 roaches to stop any possible harassment, get some extra drones, quicker 2nd gas and lair, go hydra den then natural, by the time t 1st void ray arrives you should have at least 4 hydras. You may sack an ovi to see if he commits to air, or seeing hydras switches to colossus, if so, - get spire and mass muta, easy as you already have 4 gas. I don't think you understand how fast a P can get void ray. By time you get few lings and 4-6 roaches he has a void ray. How do you stop that harass with units that cannot attack air? Sounds like you're doing a typical roach rush. Don't go roach rush it's that simple you should have your name changed to "orbitter" hahaha what's he supposed to use against zealots? ling? pft.
Yes, Lings... Why not?
If he doesn't go 3 Gate Speedlings are more than capable of dealing with any Zealots he might sends and if you worry about his Zeal count (in other words build to many drones and not enough lings) 2 Spinecrawlers will switch the advantage back to you (as long as there are only zealots, if there are not only zealots he should not have a strong enough army against lings to theaten you anyway...
And if he goes fast Voidray there is NO way that he can outmatch your lings with zealots.
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god people need to read the fucking op. hes not asking how to counter a void ray, everybody with half a brain knows that hydras straight up kill void rays, the whole problem is that void rays come out before hydras and kill your main before you get any AA.
On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries.
right, cause every good zerg has 900-1200 minerals to throw around at the 6 minute mark of a game.
Oh, and you are probably using a computer that cheats, the ones that get free units because that's easier than actually making an AI that builds shit. the blizzard AI will never get 5 hydras. ever. Protoss comps usually have about 2 zealots and 1 stalker 15-20 minutes into the game.
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On March 11 2010 19:02 Chen wrote:god people need to read the fucking op. hes not asking how to counter a void ray, everybody with half a brain knows that hydras straight up kill void rays, the whole problem is that void rays come out before hydras and kill your main before you get any AA. Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries. right, cause every good zerg has 900-1200 minerals to throw around at the 6 minute mark of a game. Oh, and you are probably using a computer that cheats, the ones that get free units because that's easier than actually making an AI that builds shit. the blizzard AI will never get 5 hydras. ever. Protoss comps usually have about 2 zealots and 1 stalker 15-20 minutes into the game.
I'm making 2 distinct points:
1. You can have hydras before the first void ray, even a legit Zerg CPU can do it, so you can too, just watch a replay;
2. You can easily out expand any toss going for fast void rays and totally outmacro him.
I'm a legit beta player and never have or will use any hacks.
Conclusion: there's just no way you can lose to a void ray rush if you scout.
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On March 11 2010 19:51 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 19:02 Chen wrote:god people need to read the fucking op. hes not asking how to counter a void ray, everybody with half a brain knows that hydras straight up kill void rays, the whole problem is that void rays come out before hydras and kill your main before you get any AA. On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries. right, cause every good zerg has 900-1200 minerals to throw around at the 6 minute mark of a game. Oh, and you are probably using a computer that cheats, the ones that get free units because that's easier than actually making an AI that builds shit. the blizzard AI will never get 5 hydras. ever. Protoss comps usually have about 2 zealots and 1 stalker 15-20 minutes into the game. I'm making 2 distinct points: 1. You can have hydras before the first void ray, even a legit Zerg CPU can do it, so you can too, just watch a replay; 2. You can easily out expand any toss going for fast void rays and totally outmacro him. I'm a legit beta player and never have or will use any hacks. Conclusion: there's just no way you can lose to a void ray rush if you scout.
if this were true then we should start seeing a trend of fake void ray into speedlots or something
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Can anyone point me to a (recent) replay of a decent Zerg player losing to this?
To me this looks like accidental revival of a very early beta thread (Feb 22nd) which describes something that just isn't a problem anymore ...
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This is not a problem anymore. The answer isn't to simply build more hatcheries lol. it is to roll him with roaches and defend with some token hydra/ and or queen.
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sigh... those dam protosses, already mucking up SCII with their goofy strats 
has anyone considered zergs ability to double expand vs a teching protoss? with the innovation of 'mobile static defense' can you consider teching as fast as possible to hydralisks THEN adding a roach warren and 2 spiness. this could be done after scouting a fast cybernetics core.
After hydralisks are out you should be able to defend vs any cheesy bs + start producing enough roaches and hydralisks.
after getting to lair why not create an overlord creep highway to quickly move your spine crawlers to your nat and second expansion while simultaneously adding 2 more hatcheries. this will allow you to completely overrun a cutesy large unit rush by just out macroing him instantly. imagine 3 queens inject larvae all at once.
12 larvae + 9 larvae saved up = instant army to bum fuk toss over ;O
just theory craft, i guess the point is to not be afraid of sacrificing early game economy in favor of defense. You can simply overwhelm a teching protoss later.
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Calgary25969 Posts
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly.
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On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly.
I'm guessing the people suggesting that are very poor at using spawn larvae consistently, or aren't using queens at all.
3 hatches + 3 queens requires a MONSTER economy (like 50+ drones) if you're doing spawn larvae consistently.
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On March 11 2010 22:38 lol.Froste wrote:sigh... those dam protosses, already mucking up SCII with their goofy strats has anyone considered zergs ability to double expand vs a teching protoss? with the innovation of 'mobile static defense' can you consider teching as fast as possible to hydralisks THEN adding a roach warren and 2 spiness. this could be done after scouting a fast cybernetics core. After hydralisks are out you should be able to defend vs any cheesy bs + start producing enough roaches and hydralisks. after getting to lair why not create an overlord creep highway to quickly move your spine crawlers to your nat and second expansion while simultaneously adding 2 more hatcheries. this will allow you to completely overrun a cutesy large unit rush by just out macroing him instantly. imagine 3 queens inject larvae all at once. 12 larvae + 9 larvae saved up = instant army to bum fuk toss over ;O just theory craft, i guess the point is to not be afraid of sacrificing early game economy in favor of defense. You can simply overwhelm a teching protoss later.
I saw a vod where David Kim double expanded like you would in BW on desert oasis but he went mass ling into baneling but im sure your plan would work, but ive never double expanded in the beta so i dont know the timing or if you could defend in time against the early void ray op was talking about.
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On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly.
It's not about supporting those hatcheries, a toss going for quick void rays can't do anything about you expanding all over the place while teching to hydras. It doesn't even matter if the void rays take out a hatchery since the toss can't move out of his base and his void rays are useless once you have a couple of hydras. Core + Stargate + 2 Void Rays = 700 minerals, 450 gas so an extra 2 hatcheries is no problem and a third if they persist in making more void rays. Might as well make them expansions while you're at it.
Anyway, apparently I fail at making my point so I'll leave it be. Still interested to see a replay of someone decent actually losing to this.
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On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries.
Just because you CAN double gas at 10 doesn't mean that's a good idea. Yes, let's just all double gas early without scouting every game vs P because that is so optimal right? Until you watch a replay and look at timings, please stop posting with stuff you can't back up.
On March 12 2010 01:30 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly. It's not about supporting those hatcheries, a toss going for quick void rays can't do anything about you expanding all over the place while teching to hydras. It doesn't even matter if the void rays take out a hatchery since the toss can't move out of his base and his void rays are useless once you have a couple of hydras. Core + Stargate + 2 Void Rays = 700 minerals, 450 gas so an extra 2 hatcheries is no problem and a third if they persist in making more void rays. Might as well make them expansions while you're at it. Anyway, apparently I fail at making my point so I'll leave it be. Still interested to see a replay of someone decent actually losing to this.
It actually is about supporting those hatcheries. Just because you can make hatcheries all game doesn't mean you do. Please stop bothering to post unless YOU can post a replay with someone getting hydra before 6 minutes. In fact, why don't you play a game vs CPU as zerg and get hydra out before 6 minutes? I'm fascinated of what kind of monster build you can pull off by gassing early blind before getting your scout off. Again, I guess then what you're saying is Chill has no idea what he's talking about.
Can everyone who doesn't even play zerg stop posting please? Or at least if you play P only post useful information up besides:
"queen." or "hydra." or "make 5 hatcheries" or "no way this can happen."
you guys are missing the point completely. All of these responses are irrelevant because the void ray comes before zergs have AA.
On March 11 2010 22:38 lol.Froste wrote:sigh... those dam protosses, already mucking up SCII with their goofy strats has anyone considered zergs ability to double expand vs a teching protoss? with the innovation of 'mobile static defense' can you consider teching as fast as possible to hydralisks
is close, but I don't like the idea of 'static defense.' Everyone knows the innovation of 'minimizing static defense.'
Now that all that's out of the way, onto the realm of constructive information. I tried the build I mentioned with the earlier 2nd queen vs a 6 minute voidray and it seems to hold, although my opponent wasn't very good and I'm not positive it was the same timing. I will post replay later. Still waiting on anyone who has real information of other things that work. I'm also unsure about the 4:30 voidray that I have heard about as I haven't gone up against it to see how easy it is to counter rush him.
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After I lost a couple of times to this voidray gayness, I think it is a good idea to sacrifice your first overlord to scout it. Whenever you see the toss going for early gas and cybernetics core, fly your overlord around his base to make sure you scout everything. As soon as you see the stargate, throw down an evo chamber, some spores (like one in the main and two at the expansion) and drone like crazy while teching to lair.
If the protoss wants to kill your ovie before you can see the stargate, he will have to either get a stalker before throwing down the stargate or get a forge and cannons. Both will delay the voidrays significantly, so you will be able to get out some antiair. When it hit me unprepared, my spirewas like halfway done, so any delay should make it possible to defend.
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On March 12 2010 02:14 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 23:02 BlasiuS wrote:On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly. I'm guessing the people suggesting that are very poor at using spawn larvae consistently, or aren't using queens at all. 3 hatches + 3 queens requires a MONSTER economy (like 50+ drones) if you're doing spawn larvae consistently. because Chill has no idea what he's talking about right? I think theres a prettty good chance Chill isn't making that up. The issue isn't being able to spawn larvae or make queens, everyone here who is posting this kind of response is missing the point completely. it is a TIMING ISSUE. Can everyone who doesn't even play zerg stop posting please? Or at least if you play P only post useful information up besides: "queen." or "hydra." or "no way this can happen."
I was agreeing with him -_-
or are you suggesting that the correct response to fast void ray is to expand "3-4 times"?
No.
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Calgary25969 Posts
Lol why would you make 3-4 random hatches just because you can? Thats not a good idea to beat anything...
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On March 12 2010 02:53 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 02:14 zomgzergrush wrote:On March 11 2010 23:02 BlasiuS wrote:On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly. I'm guessing the people suggesting that are very poor at using spawn larvae consistently, or aren't using queens at all. 3 hatches + 3 queens requires a MONSTER economy (like 50+ drones) if you're doing spawn larvae consistently. because Chill has no idea what he's talking about right? I think theres a prettty good chance Chill isn't making that up. The issue isn't being able to spawn larvae or make queens, everyone here who is posting this kind of response is missing the point completely. it is a TIMING ISSUE. Can everyone who doesn't even play zerg stop posting please? Or at least if you play P only post useful information up besides: "queen." or "hydra." or "no way this can happen." I was agreeing with him -_- or are you suggesting that the correct response to fast void ray is to expand "3-4 times"? No.
Lost track of all my quotes from all these bs answers, sorry I didn't mean to quote you.
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Void Ray is pretty weak, just keep making queens as long as he is making Void Rays. Good to get a 2nd hatch up so one can make a queen while the other upgrades to lair
Queen cost: 150 minerals, build time 50, doesnt even cost a larvae
Void Ray cost: 200 minerals 150 gas, build time 60
You shouldn't lose to Void Rays.
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On March 12 2010 03:03 TSL-Lore wrote:
Void Ray is pretty weak, just keep making queens as long as he is making Void Rays. Good to get a 2nd hatch up so one can make a queen while the other upgrades to lair
Queen cost: 150 minerals, build time 50, doesnt even cost a larvae
Void Ray cost: 200 minerals 150 gas, build time 60
You shouldn't lose to Void Rays.
Don't forget about chrono boost. Also, you need two queens to take out 1 void ray.
But yeah, I'm beginning to really think that queens is the way to go on this one. I'm just unsure about any earlier voidray. The lair blocks the queen prod right? Forgot to look into that.
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Have you tried getting lair up exactly when queen finishes? I don't know the exact timing for fastest void ray rush. But I haven't died to it yet.
The build I use is
14 pool
16 (when mineral reaches ~106) gas
16 ovvie
16queen
19~20 Lair+nat.
Skipping roaches, going straight for hydra speedling.
Works like a charm against most protoss builds. Except 2 gate
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On March 12 2010 03:07 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 03:03 TSL-Lore wrote:
Void Ray is pretty weak, just keep making queens as long as he is making Void Rays. Good to get a 2nd hatch up so one can make a queen while the other upgrades to lair
Queen cost: 150 minerals, build time 50, doesnt even cost a larvae
Void Ray cost: 200 minerals 150 gas, build time 60
You shouldn't lose to Void Rays. Don't forget about chrono boost. Also, you need two queens to take out 1 void ray. But yeah, I'm beginning to really think that queens is the way to go on this one. I'm just unsure about any earlier voidray. The lair blocks the queen prod right? Forgot to look into that.
You should have 1 queen out before your lair. Lair will be morphing as voidray comes in (or if its not, immediately start making a 2nd queen). Make the queen waste the voidray's time while putting up a spore. Waste more time by running away and coming back again, then make 2nd queen as soon as possible. Put up hydra den, then win. It works, I've done it plenty of times.
I've actually allowed my Lair to get killed by a voidray before and then just outmassed the protoss after by expanding twice. I dunno, void isn't much of a threat imo. Not as scary as that zeal/sentry into immortal push most plat protoss's do.
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Do you have to micro the Queens to kill the Void Ray or can they do it themselves?
Haven't tried dual Queens vs. Void Rays but just wondering if you have to move one back, let the VR target the other Queen and bring the first back again and continue like that.
Also I'm not sure but maybe the developers made Transfusion work with the Queen against a Void Ray rush? If two Queens can take down a single Void Ray without too much trouble maybe Transfusion with a single Queen is there to soft-counter an "OMG he Void rushes me while I have no AA" moment? Just a thought.
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Actually the voidray does not start his charging again if you micro the queen away, at least if you can tell from the visual appearance of the beam. I think this queen production does not bring you far.
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On March 12 2010 03:10 lgd-haze wrote:
Have you tried getting lair up exactly when queen finishes? I don't know the exact timing for fastest void ray rush. But I haven't died to it yet.
The build I use is
14 pool
16 (when mineral reaches ~106) gas
16 ovvie
16queen
19~20 Lair+nat.
Skipping roaches, going straight for hydra speedling.
Works like a charm against most protoss builds. Except 2 gate
i go:
13 pool
14 gas
15 ov
queen after pool is done
~20 lair, nat, 2nd gas ** lair goes up right after queen pops
2nd queen immediately after lair
As I said before, this gives me a 2nd queen at around 6:20. I also skip roaches when I see tech. Plat P's always do robo timing pushes on me so I seldom get practice vs this build.
Are you extractor tricking for the 14 pool? I extractor trick just for the drone scout, I still save an extra larvae to get the pool down at 13. I don't know if this makes a significant timing difference tho, may want to try 14 pool myself.
I completely forgot about transfusion. 2 queens should be fine vs 2 voidrays then in that case
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You should have put overlords all around his base, so you can scout as effectively as you can, without your ovies being killed.
If you scouted the void ray early, you could have tech to hydralisks pretty quickly. I mean tier 2 for zerg should be fast, no matter if you decide to build roaches or not.
Once you have lair, the hydralisk den is pretty quick to build and I'm certain one queen can hold her own against a void ray, and with a bit of micro you can easily held 1 void ray until you can build hydralisks.
Void rays build time is pretty slow and even with chrono boost you should be able to spawn 7 hydralisks for every 1 void ray, of course this is if you use the queens spawn larva ability, but even if you are not its 3 hydralisks to 1 void ray in build time.
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Yeah maybe Transfusion was intended like that. Scout the Protoss and if he turtles and tech to Void Ray you have two options depending upon how soon you've scouted it and how quick he's teching.
If you spottet it early enough maybe you could get a handfuld of Hydras in time. If not then do not use the Inject Larvae ability. Instead save the energy for Transfusion which you'll need to defend and maybe an expo or two. That way you could make up for the lost Larvae with additional Hatcheries while amassing an army to counter his rush and run him over.
Just a thought.
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On March 12 2010 04:31 member1987 wrote:
You should have put overlords all around his base, so you can scout as effectively as you can, without your ovies being killed.
If you scouted the void ray early, you could have tech to hydralisks pretty quickly. I mean tier 2 for zerg should be fast, no matter if you decide to build roaches or not.
Once you have lair, the hydralisk den is pretty quick to build and I'm certain one queen can hold her own against a void ray, and with a bit of micro you can easily held 1 void ray until you can build hydralisks.
Void rays build time is pretty slow and even with chrono boost you should be able to spawn 7 hydralisks for every 1 void ray, of course this is if you use the queens spawn larva ability, but even if you are not its 3 hydralisks to 1 void ray in build time.
Can people like this please stop posting in this thread? Do you even have the beta? Yes, I will spawn 7 hydralisks for his 1 void ray with my nonexistent den
Actuallyyyy I should just save my breath and don the irrelevant information filter goggles...
*goggles on*
On March 12 2010 04:55 3nickma wrote:
Yeah maybe Transfusion was intended like that. Scout the Protoss and if he turtles and tech to Void Ray you have two options depending upon how soon you've scouted it and how quick he's teching.
If you spottet it early enough maybe you could get a handfuld of Hydras in time. If not then do not use the Inject Larvae ability. Instead save the energy for Transfusion which you'll need to defend and maybe an expo or two. That way you could make up for the lost Larvae with additional Hatcheries while amassing an army to counter his rush and run him over.
Just a thought.
I really like that idea actually, just save the energy. I'm not sure if its necessary to save the energy that early, though, as you may only need that if you encounter 2 void rays. Then again, I think 2 queens do fine vs 2 voidrays on their own...
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Well buddy, all I can tell you is the pros are fast expanding and fending this off with 2 queens, with hydras coming in toward the end of the fight. They micro their queens away from the void ray, then attack again, then repeat, basically buying time. I've seen someone else put down some spore colony things too. So if you're not managing to pull either of these solutions off, I can only tell you it's something wrong with your build, and insisting on it being imbalance is not going to make you a better player.
It may also be possible the protoss is very, very fast teching to void rays (basically getting no units but a few zealots). If this is the case, and you are infact dealing with a highly accelerated warp ray rush (If such a build order could exist), the solution may just be to storm in there with a ton of zerglings and punish him for his overly fast tech. That part is just me speculating..
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If they're teching, you should have expansions.
You can keep a overlord to scout until he gets stalkers. By the time he gets stalkers, it should be incredibly easy to tell if hes rushing void rays or not.
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I see accelerated void ray rush kinda like a DT rush in broodwar (granted not against zerg) It should ONLY work if you're caught completely off guard which just shouldn't happen.
The opening for it will look like 1 gate cyb core tech. Once you scout that there are only 3 possible out comes I think. 3-4 warpgate rush, robo facility, or void ray / phoenix rush. So continue to have your drone qued up with movements and the 1 zealot / probes will never be able to kill him.
In the mean time, keep pumping drones, I wouldn't even make a single fighter, get both gas going super quick and start Lair with the first 100 gas after you que queen / pool finishes, it should not take long at all. Roaches are useless against 2 of those 3 builds so unless you start seeing more gateways go down I would just skip them. The main thing to understand with these protoss quick techs is that you don't need the early units to survive so you just delay yourself in making them.
Throw out the hydra den and you'll have 2 hydras building as his void ray gets to your base because of travel time. At worst he MIGHT get to kill your queen before they pop but once they do, void ray threat over...
on the other hand, if you want to do what you always do and just simply want to be void ray proof just throw down an evo chamber shortly after your pool. I usually have one anyway since i feel like upgrades are just so damn important in every single match up. Make 2 spore crawlers which are teir 1.5 and you will never lose to void rays, ever. If you want a super simple solution that doesn't have any thing to do with knowing timings or even scouting that is basically it. "throw up 2 spore crawlers before 6 minutes are up" and you can't die to void rays. I think that will run you like 275 minerals too, so not a big deal to negate his entire strat anyway...
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This has probably been already suggested but try spore colonies?
They're a lot stronger than a lot of people give them credit for. Especially if you have a queen healing it.
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get double queen or tech to hydra (if u see he started building stargate u still can manage to make lair-den and some hydras before void ray  )
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Power while you do a 12 hatch/12 pool build with 2 gas (2 drones on each gas); into a quick Lair while getting a roach den; throw in a handful of lings early game while powering; by the time protoss can send two warprays to your base you'll have a ton of larvae (spam injectors) ready to make hydras for the warprays, and roaches for any ground army. Make sure to get burrow/burrow movement.
Any attempt at a Warpray rush is given away by the lack of gateways and zealots. As a zerg you're pretty safe to build ur economy while the toss sits in his base teching. If he gets a threatening number of zealots at any point before the warprays arrive, you will have 2 hatches with injectors ready to make lings at any second. Save gas by not getting ling speed; lings fighting on their own creep are fast enough. Creep Tumor works nicely for this. A spine crawler never hurts either.
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I play protos and i use void rays but a bit deferent ... i use them in timed attack against zergs who do fast expand into roaches or roaches into fast expand ( not many of those ).
What i do is ... one gate > robo > second gate > stargate ... then i push with around 2 sentries 6zealots 2 stalkers and 2 imortals and 2 void rays. Void rays go to main kill the queen / lair while i push on expansion , i think it is not easy to defend that with roaches and tech to hydra usually one base falls sometimes both with lower micro guys ...
I dont think void ray rush is really viable at all ... as mentioned above 2 queens will OWN 2 void rays on there own ... you need timing push with ground forces to make them effective.
BTW I like void rays as counter to broodlords as well had most success with them so far.
It is not really a rush just timing attack the thing that i do. If zerg is going to zerling muta or directly into hydra then you will have problems killing him in my way or even rushing ... but generally it works only vs specific BO that is not really popular anymore with zergs aka roach fast expand.
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Double queens is always good. If you have the eco to support that much larvae. Extra defense is nice too.
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EPT
