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god people need to read the fucking op. hes not asking how to counter a void ray, everybody with half a brain knows that hydras straight up kill void rays, the whole problem is that void rays come out before hydras and kill your main before you get any AA.
On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries.
right, cause every good zerg has 900-1200 minerals to throw around at the 6 minute mark of a game.
Oh, and you are probably using a computer that cheats, the ones that get free units because that's easier than actually making an AI that builds shit. the blizzard AI will never get 5 hydras. ever. Protoss comps usually have about 2 zealots and 1 stalker 15-20 minutes into the game.
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On March 11 2010 19:02 Chen wrote:god people need to read the fucking op. hes not asking how to counter a void ray, everybody with half a brain knows that hydras straight up kill void rays, the whole problem is that void rays come out before hydras and kill your main before you get any AA. Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries. right, cause every good zerg has 900-1200 minerals to throw around at the 6 minute mark of a game. Oh, and you are probably using a computer that cheats, the ones that get free units because that's easier than actually making an AI that builds shit. the blizzard AI will never get 5 hydras. ever. Protoss comps usually have about 2 zealots and 1 stalker 15-20 minutes into the game.
I'm making 2 distinct points:
1. You can have hydras before the first void ray, even a legit Zerg CPU can do it, so you can too, just watch a replay;
2. You can easily out expand any toss going for fast void rays and totally outmacro him.
I'm a legit beta player and never have or will use any hacks.
Conclusion: there's just no way you can lose to a void ray rush if you scout.
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On March 11 2010 19:51 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 19:02 Chen wrote:god people need to read the fucking op. hes not asking how to counter a void ray, everybody with half a brain knows that hydras straight up kill void rays, the whole problem is that void rays come out before hydras and kill your main before you get any AA. On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries. right, cause every good zerg has 900-1200 minerals to throw around at the 6 minute mark of a game. Oh, and you are probably using a computer that cheats, the ones that get free units because that's easier than actually making an AI that builds shit. the blizzard AI will never get 5 hydras. ever. Protoss comps usually have about 2 zealots and 1 stalker 15-20 minutes into the game. I'm making 2 distinct points: 1. You can have hydras before the first void ray, even a legit Zerg CPU can do it, so you can too, just watch a replay; 2. You can easily out expand any toss going for fast void rays and totally outmacro him. I'm a legit beta player and never have or will use any hacks. Conclusion: there's just no way you can lose to a void ray rush if you scout.
if this were true then we should start seeing a trend of fake void ray into speedlots or something
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Can anyone point me to a (recent) replay of a decent Zerg player losing to this?
To me this looks like accidental revival of a very early beta thread (Feb 22nd) which describes something that just isn't a problem anymore ...
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This is not a problem anymore. The answer isn't to simply build more hatcheries lol. it is to roll him with roaches and defend with some token hydra/ and or queen.
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sigh... those dam protosses, already mucking up SCII with their goofy strats 
has anyone considered zergs ability to double expand vs a teching protoss? with the innovation of 'mobile static defense' can you consider teching as fast as possible to hydralisks THEN adding a roach warren and 2 spiness. this could be done after scouting a fast cybernetics core.
After hydralisks are out you should be able to defend vs any cheesy bs + start producing enough roaches and hydralisks.
after getting to lair why not create an overlord creep highway to quickly move your spine crawlers to your nat and second expansion while simultaneously adding 2 more hatcheries. this will allow you to completely overrun a cutesy large unit rush by just out macroing him instantly. imagine 3 queens inject larvae all at once.
12 larvae + 9 larvae saved up = instant army to bum fuk toss over ;O
just theory craft, i guess the point is to not be afraid of sacrificing early game economy in favor of defense. You can simply overwhelm a teching protoss later.
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Calgary25997 Posts
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly.
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On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly.
I'm guessing the people suggesting that are very poor at using spawn larvae consistently, or aren't using queens at all.
3 hatches + 3 queens requires a MONSTER economy (like 50+ drones) if you're doing spawn larvae consistently.
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On March 11 2010 22:38 lol.Froste wrote:sigh... those dam protosses, already mucking up SCII with their goofy strats has anyone considered zergs ability to double expand vs a teching protoss? with the innovation of 'mobile static defense' can you consider teching as fast as possible to hydralisks THEN adding a roach warren and 2 spiness. this could be done after scouting a fast cybernetics core. After hydralisks are out you should be able to defend vs any cheesy bs + start producing enough roaches and hydralisks. after getting to lair why not create an overlord creep highway to quickly move your spine crawlers to your nat and second expansion while simultaneously adding 2 more hatcheries. this will allow you to completely overrun a cutesy large unit rush by just out macroing him instantly. imagine 3 queens inject larvae all at once. 12 larvae + 9 larvae saved up = instant army to bum fuk toss over ;O just theory craft, i guess the point is to not be afraid of sacrificing early game economy in favor of defense. You can simply overwhelm a teching protoss later.
I saw a vod where David Kim double expanded like you would in BW on desert oasis but he went mass ling into baneling but im sure your plan would work, but ive never double expanded in the beta so i dont know the timing or if you could defend in time against the early void ray op was talking about.
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On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly.
It's not about supporting those hatcheries, a toss going for quick void rays can't do anything about you expanding all over the place while teching to hydras. It doesn't even matter if the void rays take out a hatchery since the toss can't move out of his base and his void rays are useless once you have a couple of hydras. Core + Stargate + 2 Void Rays = 700 minerals, 450 gas so an extra 2 hatcheries is no problem and a third if they persist in making more void rays. Might as well make them expansions while you're at it.
Anyway, apparently I fail at making my point so I'll leave it be. Still interested to see a replay of someone decent actually losing to this.
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On March 11 2010 17:35 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +If this was the case, there would be no open discussions about this issue now, would there? The computer also likes to make two zealots that stare blankly at you, on it's ONLY (blizzard released) AI setting: very easy. Please don't post if you don't know what you're talking about. Hydras are lair tech. On a 14 gas, the lair immediately started with first 100 gas isn't even done until 5:32.
5:32. That's just the lair finishing. Uhm, just watch a replay of a Zerg CPU and you'll see. Obviously I'm not talking about a 14 gas build (...) It's just BS to say you can't have hydras when the first void ray comes. Any decent Zerg in beta at the moment just expands 3-4 times when they scout you going for void rays, good luck killing all those hatcheries.
Just because you CAN double gas at 10 doesn't mean that's a good idea. Yes, let's just all double gas early without scouting every game vs P because that is so optimal right? Until you watch a replay and look at timings, please stop posting with stuff you can't back up.
On March 12 2010 01:30 DaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly. It's not about supporting those hatcheries, a toss going for quick void rays can't do anything about you expanding all over the place while teching to hydras. It doesn't even matter if the void rays take out a hatchery since the toss can't move out of his base and his void rays are useless once you have a couple of hydras. Core + Stargate + 2 Void Rays = 700 minerals, 450 gas so an extra 2 hatcheries is no problem and a third if they persist in making more void rays. Might as well make them expansions while you're at it. Anyway, apparently I fail at making my point so I'll leave it be. Still interested to see a replay of someone decent actually losing to this.
It actually is about supporting those hatcheries. Just because you can make hatcheries all game doesn't mean you do. Please stop bothering to post unless YOU can post a replay with someone getting hydra before 6 minutes. In fact, why don't you play a game vs CPU as zerg and get hydra out before 6 minutes? I'm fascinated of what kind of monster build you can pull off by gassing early blind before getting your scout off. Again, I guess then what you're saying is Chill has no idea what he's talking about.
Can everyone who doesn't even play zerg stop posting please? Or at least if you play P only post useful information up besides:
"queen." or "hydra." or "make 5 hatcheries" or "no way this can happen."
you guys are missing the point completely. All of these responses are irrelevant because the void ray comes before zergs have AA.
On March 11 2010 22:38 lol.Froste wrote:sigh... those dam protosses, already mucking up SCII with their goofy strats has anyone considered zergs ability to double expand vs a teching protoss? with the innovation of 'mobile static defense' can you consider teching as fast as possible to hydralisks
is close, but I don't like the idea of 'static defense.' Everyone knows the innovation of 'minimizing static defense.'
Now that all that's out of the way, onto the realm of constructive information. I tried the build I mentioned with the earlier 2nd queen vs a 6 minute voidray and it seems to hold, although my opponent wasn't very good and I'm not positive it was the same timing. I will post replay later. Still waiting on anyone who has real information of other things that work. I'm also unsure about the 4:30 voidray that I have heard about as I haven't gone up against it to see how easy it is to counter rush him.
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After I lost a couple of times to this voidray gayness, I think it is a good idea to sacrifice your first overlord to scout it. Whenever you see the toss going for early gas and cybernetics core, fly your overlord around his base to make sure you scout everything. As soon as you see the stargate, throw down an evo chamber, some spores (like one in the main and two at the expansion) and drone like crazy while teching to lair.
If the protoss wants to kill your ovie before you can see the stargate, he will have to either get a stalker before throwing down the stargate or get a forge and cannons. Both will delay the voidrays significantly, so you will be able to get out some antiair. When it hit me unprepared, my spirewas like halfway done, so any delay should make it possible to defend.
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On March 12 2010 02:14 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 23:02 BlasiuS wrote:On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly. I'm guessing the people suggesting that are very poor at using spawn larvae consistently, or aren't using queens at all. 3 hatches + 3 queens requires a MONSTER economy (like 50+ drones) if you're doing spawn larvae consistently. because Chill has no idea what he's talking about right? I think theres a prettty good chance Chill isn't making that up. The issue isn't being able to spawn larvae or make queens, everyone here who is posting this kind of response is missing the point completely. it is a TIMING ISSUE. Can everyone who doesn't even play zerg stop posting please? Or at least if you play P only post useful information up besides: "queen." or "hydra." or "no way this can happen."
I was agreeing with him -_-
or are you suggesting that the correct response to fast void ray is to expand "3-4 times"?
No.
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Calgary25997 Posts
Lol why would you make 3-4 random hatches just because you can? Thats not a good idea to beat anything... 
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On March 12 2010 02:53 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 02:14 zomgzergrush wrote:On March 11 2010 23:02 BlasiuS wrote:On March 11 2010 22:50 Chill wrote:
I'm wondering if the people suggesting things with 3-4 Hatcheries have actually played SC2. You cannot support 2 Hatcheries worth of Hydras from 2 bases with Queens. Seriously. Minerals disappear very quickly. I'm guessing the people suggesting that are very poor at using spawn larvae consistently, or aren't using queens at all. 3 hatches + 3 queens requires a MONSTER economy (like 50+ drones) if you're doing spawn larvae consistently. because Chill has no idea what he's talking about right? I think theres a prettty good chance Chill isn't making that up. The issue isn't being able to spawn larvae or make queens, everyone here who is posting this kind of response is missing the point completely. it is a TIMING ISSUE. Can everyone who doesn't even play zerg stop posting please? Or at least if you play P only post useful information up besides: "queen." or "hydra." or "no way this can happen." I was agreeing with him -_- or are you suggesting that the correct response to fast void ray is to expand "3-4 times"? No.
Lost track of all my quotes from all these bs answers, sorry I didn't mean to quote you.
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Void Ray is pretty weak, just keep making queens as long as he is making Void Rays. Good to get a 2nd hatch up so one can make a queen while the other upgrades to lair
Queen cost: 150 minerals, build time 50, doesnt even cost a larvae
Void Ray cost: 200 minerals 150 gas, build time 60
You shouldn't lose to Void Rays.
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On March 12 2010 03:03 TSL-Lore wrote:
Void Ray is pretty weak, just keep making queens as long as he is making Void Rays. Good to get a 2nd hatch up so one can make a queen while the other upgrades to lair
Queen cost: 150 minerals, build time 50, doesnt even cost a larvae
Void Ray cost: 200 minerals 150 gas, build time 60
You shouldn't lose to Void Rays.
Don't forget about chrono boost. Also, you need two queens to take out 1 void ray.
But yeah, I'm beginning to really think that queens is the way to go on this one. I'm just unsure about any earlier voidray. The lair blocks the queen prod right? Forgot to look into that.
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Have you tried getting lair up exactly when queen finishes? I don't know the exact timing for fastest void ray rush. But I haven't died to it yet.
The build I use is
14 pool
16 (when mineral reaches ~106) gas
16 ovvie
16queen
19~20 Lair+nat.
Skipping roaches, going straight for hydra speedling.
Works like a charm against most protoss builds. Except 2 gate
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On March 12 2010 03:07 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 03:03 TSL-Lore wrote:
Void Ray is pretty weak, just keep making queens as long as he is making Void Rays. Good to get a 2nd hatch up so one can make a queen while the other upgrades to lair
Queen cost: 150 minerals, build time 50, doesnt even cost a larvae
Void Ray cost: 200 minerals 150 gas, build time 60
You shouldn't lose to Void Rays. Don't forget about chrono boost. Also, you need two queens to take out 1 void ray. But yeah, I'm beginning to really think that queens is the way to go on this one. I'm just unsure about any earlier voidray. The lair blocks the queen prod right? Forgot to look into that.
You should have 1 queen out before your lair. Lair will be morphing as voidray comes in (or if its not, immediately start making a 2nd queen). Make the queen waste the voidray's time while putting up a spore. Waste more time by running away and coming back again, then make 2nd queen as soon as possible. Put up hydra den, then win. It works, I've done it plenty of times.
I've actually allowed my Lair to get killed by a voidray before and then just outmassed the protoss after by expanding twice. I dunno, void isn't much of a threat imo. Not as scary as that zeal/sentry into immortal push most plat protoss's do.
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Do you have to micro the Queens to kill the Void Ray or can they do it themselves?
Haven't tried dual Queens vs. Void Rays but just wondering if you have to move one back, let the VR target the other Queen and bring the first back again and continue like that.
Also I'm not sure but maybe the developers made Transfusion work with the Queen against a Void Ray rush? If two Queens can take down a single Void Ray without too much trouble maybe Transfusion with a single Queen is there to soft-counter an "OMG he Void rushes me while I have no AA" moment? Just a thought.
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EPT
