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On January 06 2013 22:34 tehherzog wrote:
Well your map is beatable now ^_^ i got to level 125 when my computer decided to minimize SC2 on me. Making me loose to a round of ghost right as it came back up again. I'm gonna beat your map then post after i beat it.
wow really? whats your secret o.o
are the forge upgrades really that good? or is it the drone econ?
i thought 80+ would still be impossible after the patch. everyone died between 20-50 before patch
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The map gets easier the longer you play (after the midgame) as towers get exponentially better the more you upgrade them with speed/damage synergy.
I beat the map with mutalisks into marines. A few upgrades mutas are a really good opening vs everything except single enemies, but you can afford to leak those single enemy waves as they still only count as 1 leak.
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Nice patch! Although, I'm still sad that it is still not possible to play coop without having to defend 8 lanes at once. It's really quite impossible to go 2-3 players against 8 lanes. Is it hard to make it so that the number of lanes spawned is relative to the amount of players on the map when playing coop? 2 players defend 2 lanes, 4 players defend 4 lanes etc. Would really be an improvement imo, as I don't see a reason to force 8 players each time you play.
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Hey there!
I saw your post in the Battlenet forums about showing range indicators when you select a unit and wrote a quick response. Basically the fact that you can't change the unit from the Siege Tank to another unit in the range actor's events (assuming you start by duplicating the siege tank range actor) is pretty much a glitch on the Editor's part. However, you can circumvent this by opening the actor in XML view and replacing the siege tank text with a new unit's text. Here's a tutorial from SC2Mapster:
http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/22272-data-actor-range-indicators-the-best-way/
Also, is there any reason that the SCV/Probe has to have collision on? Sounds like it'd be real easy to remove collision entirely so the unit can move anywhere without the risk of getting stuck, or at least minimize travelling time in general.
Best of luck!
rut
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On January 07 2013 04:31 Rut wrote:Hey there! I saw your post in the Battlenet forums about showing range indicators when you select a unit and wrote a quick response. Basically the fact that you can't change the unit from the Siege Tank to another unit in the range actor's events (assuming you start by duplicating the siege tank range actor) is pretty much a glitch on the Editor's part. However, you can circumvent this by opening the actor in XML view and replacing the siege tank text with a new unit's text. Here's a tutorial from SC2Mapster: http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/resources/tutorials/22272-data-actor-range-indicators-the-best-way/Also, is there any reason that the SCV/Probe has to have collision on? Sounds like it'd be real easy to remove collision entirely so the unit can move anywhere without the risk of getting stuck, or at least minimize travelling time in general. Best of luck! rut
thanks a bunch, will look into it 
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Hey nice map
Have played it a lot.
I like the mineral cost on probes and drones, i didn't had to stop building workers but i had to make some drones instead of going just for probes early on.
I like the way the damage works too. I was going stalker archon, so i have bonus vs bio and vs mechanical and i don't have to make anti-air (had some troubles against archons, but one immortal did the job haha). Wanna try siege tank + hellion + missile turret too, seems nice as they all share same upgrades!
Just won first time, but i had to cheese my way to win building 20 high templars.... Don't think i would be able to win putting all gas in upgrades, maybe templars could cost more gas after the first one or be limited to one or two.
Good job!
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On January 07 2013 10:42 dmaun wrote:
Hey nice map
Have played it a lot.
I like the mineral cost on probes and drones, i didn't had to stop building workers but i had to make some drones instead of going just for probes early on.
I like the way the damage works too. I was going stalker archon, so i have bonus vs bio and vs mechanical and i don't have to make anti-air (had some troubles against archons, but one immortal did the job haha). Wanna try siege tank + hellion + missile turret too, seems nice as they all share same upgrades!
Just won first time, but i had to cheese my way to win building 20 high templars.... Don't think i would be able to win putting all gas in upgrades, maybe templars could cost more gas after the first one or be limited to one or two.
Good job!
thanks
yes im currently thinking about bringing storm to a set amount of damage now when theres scaling within minerals and vespene and not just vespene
the design flaw with storm right now is that whenever you build a high templar, the damage output fits somewhat right with its cost, however the longer the game goes the damage increases while the investment required does not.
what i thought would prevent people from spamming high templars is that too high investement in them would create hiccups in peoples defenses (since storm costs alot) and you wouldnt be able to storm each round, but i guess thats not the case
for people wondering, i did not yet cross level 100 myself. im always trying new combos and ways to play figure out if everything is balanced out correctly and if i feel use for every tower.
right now im just slightly worried the spore crawler doesnt fill its role as cost-efficiently as i would want it to be along with the zergling.
and lastly i have plans on adding special upgrade for the stalker and cannon too so they become as cost-efficient as other towers in late game
there are more plans than this ofcourse but i thought some of you may be interested whats coming
here are the latest changes i forgot to list here (made yesterday+today)
Patch 2.1
Balance Changes:
- Immortal - Phase Disrupters damage vs non-massive increased from 3 to 4
- Spore Crawler - Acid Spew and Acid Spore cooldown decreased from 1.65 to 1.6
- Siege Tank - Crucio Shock Cannon minimum range decreased from 4 to 2
- All forge upgrades gas cost increament per level increased from 100 to 125
- Medivac gas cost decreased from 100 to 80
Zergling Leap ability added.
- Leap: Leaps the zergling to target location, a has 8 second cooldown
Overlord special structure added, costs 400 gas
- Overlord: Passively buffs all zerg units, has Generate Creep
- Generate Creep: Zerg units on creep move and attack 20% faster.
- Clayman: Terran and Protoss units move 10% slower on the creep, costs 250 gas
Forge - Psionic Weapons now also gives +300 damage to Feedback ability
Forge - Missile Attacks now also gives +8 damage to Infested Terrans
Patch 2.2
Balance Changes:
- Zergling - Claws weapon range increased from 2 to 2.5
- Mutalisk - Glave Wurm weapon cooldown increased from 1.8 to 1.9
- Spore Crawler - Acid Spew anti-light damage increased from 5 to 6
- Spore Crawler - Acid Spore anti-armored damage increased from 5 to 6
- Engineering Bay - Hi-Sec Auto Tracking range increment increased from 1 to 2
- Engineering Bay - Hi-Sec Auto Tracking cost increased from 75 to 150
- Engineering Bay - Evolve Adrenal Glands attack speed increment increased from 20% to 25%
- Engineering Bay - Evolve Adrenal Glands cost increased from 120 to 250
- Engineering Bay - Research Infernal Pre-Igniter cost increased from 200 to 250
- Engineering Bay - Research Crystal Core cost decreased from 325 to 275
Patch 2.3
Game Design:
- Tower range display now shows for all towers when placing them rather than just a few towers
Balance Changes:
- High Templar - Psionic Storm damage changed from up to 80% full health to up to 1600 damage
- Leap, Fungal Growth, Infested Terran, Psionic Storm and Feedback range increased to 12
- Forge - Psionic Weapons now adds 240 damage to Psionic Storm
Engineering bay upgrade added.
- Research Disruption Coolers: Increases Stalker attack speed by 25%, costs 350 gas
Engineering bay upgrade added.
- Research Photon Load: Increases Photon Cannon anti-psionic damage by 1, costs 275 gas
Marine and Marauder waves now gain Stimpacks
- Stimpack is used whenever the unit is attacked and doesnt have the stimpack buff
- Stimpack buff: Increases movement speed by 50% for 10 seconds but loses 20% of full health
- Shields no longer regenerate
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Any plan on making it so that the number of lanes spawned is consistent with the number of players playing? Like it was in the early versions...
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On January 02 2013 20:08 Semmo wrote:
Do you have any plans on working on the aesthetics? :D
hmm? :D i wanted to give it a broodwar look with the grid and no doodads!
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First of all thank you MorroW for such a great map!
I played it I think about 100 to 200 times in during the last week ^^
I get quite every game to lvl 70-80 (90 max :D ) - the main problem are the regeneration waves. I tried several compositions even with numbers of fungle + storms (about 10 !!!) - sometime I couldnt even kill one unit.
It is mainly one wave that kills you at once ... In most cases air regeneration.
If you would like to get more detailed feedback or if you have something new to test - feel free to add me: AoWZeNo.976
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I feel that there should be a single target air anti armored tower (maybe a thor)?. Or make the marauder hit air too.
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I would be interested what's your highest lvl u ever reached? an with what stategy (just a few points)
Mine is lvl 90
Strategy: few tanks in middle with high upgrades(no gas) + few spores with high upgrades(no gas) + splash marauder slow + roaches everywhere
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new patch is out, alot of UI improvements
the health scaling was glitched previously is fixed now. but the numbers have been changed in result of that. the max level is changed to 60. the map might have become too easy or too hard now, its impossible for me to predict without testing it a bunch
Patch 2.4
Game Design:
- Several UI improvements to cater towards beginners and others
Balance Changes:
- Amount of levels decreased from 130 to 60
- Health scaling modifiers revamped
- Air levels now get 15% less health
- The odds of a massive unit type has increased to 50% when unit counts are 8 or lower instead of having same odds as any unit type
- Broodling can now spawn in waves
- Archons and Brood Lord are now counted in the massive wave category
- Stimpack on waves health loss when using stimpack decreased from 20% to 15%
- Stalker waves now gain Blink ability
Blink:
- Whenever unit attacked and blink is off cooldown it blinks further ahead
- Blink cooldown is 6 and blink distance is up to 4
- Blink can dodge projectile weapons
- Waves with blink have 25% less total health
- Zergling - Leap cooldown decreased from 8 to 4
- Drone mineral cost changed from 30/150 to 45/120
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Belgium9947 Posts
On January 03 2013 11:04 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 11:01 RaGe wrote:
Will try this later today.
Is it made to scale with playercount? Can I get by just fine with 2? yep your completely fine. units only spawn from the lanes where players are in the game (1 player, 1 lane etc)
I tried it today on on coop mode and it spawned from all lanes.. 
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I reached lvl 78 just yesterday, pretty sure all of the new changes are only making things even easier ^^ Reaching lvl 60 is tough but definitely doable. For some reason with my build orders I have the most trouble around levels 40-50 (just because I really rush out all the probes). The way health scales makes my build become less effective with time, then spike in effectiveness to get through lvl 60-70 and then it just becomes overwhelming again.
For those who want to start sharing strategy perhaps, here's approximately what is in my mind a pretty optimal build that I was using (not necessarily in this order ofc):
- 1 hellion:
- very high upgrades, pretty much upgrading as fast as humanly possible because this helps dealing with mass units waves the best.
- Infernal preigniter upgrade is too expensive and not useful enough. Light unit waves usually come in clumps so siege tanks really help deal with those anyway.
- Just have one position where AI automatically chooses to fire in a direction where the units line up perfectly while still shooting around the hellion as well to dish out that little extra damage
- Don't need to upgrade the speed much because the splash tends to hit most of the wave one way or another even on fastest waves
- 4 siege tanks:
- Medium upgrades with very late speed upgrades
- Optimal positions are in the middle of the map.
- 4 turrets:
- Getting them really well upgraded later on because they have great dps and the health of the air waves can be was indeed tough to deal with (good changes on that part).
- There are 4 really good positions which allow you to cover almost the whole map in detection while letting the turrets fire for very good portions of the map, even focusing the regenerating units on a certain point. This still doesn't solve the mass regeneration air waves though or really high health unit regeneration health because nothing does though. Maybe it's better after the last patch ^^
- 1 spore crawler:
- Placed closer to the beginning of the map
- Very high upgrades
- 1 archon:
- Getting the archon much later. Useful for even more additional splash damage and usually getting it once a lot of the slow is already set up on the map.
- High upgrades pretty fast.
- 1 stalker, 1 hydralisk:
- Medium upgrades
- Place closer to the end of the map, where the last turns are
- Get relatively early
- Helps finish off waves
- Helps dish out extra damage in the killzone in the middle
- 1 Immortal:
- Sometimes get it to make sure the massive units are finished off, to make sure to get the extra money or when the game feels to be progressing just fine
- 2-3 roaches:
- Place relatively far away from each other. They have great fire rate and corrupt for long periods of time. Their AI also always tends to fire at the first moving target so you will never slow down enough units even if you place very many roaches nearby
- No upgrades
- 3-6 marauders:
- Can make even more after the concussive shatter upgrade is purchased to maximize siege tank damage
- No upgrades
- Gas tech tree. I change this a lot every time, really, so take it with a grain of salt:
- Get all the workers first (you need a very solid tower build order for this to be possible. Do NOT miss early waves for this):
- Get up to 3 probes, or 4 if you're risky
- Get a drone or two
- Get the rest of the probes
- Get the rest of the drones
- Get the vehicle weapons upgrade level 1 and 2 (the units should be pretty high level now)
- Either start working on some of the engineering bay upgrades, or get a warp prism right away and upgrade speed on units (25% additional DPS is really reaaaally nice)
- Get concussive shatter from engineering bay
- Get the tank speed upgrade at this point from the engineering bay
- Get at least one High Templar because things WILL start to get messy now
- Attempt to get the damage upgrade on the warp prism. That upgrade is the best upgrade in the game, imho.
- I suggest getting up to 4-6 High Templar before you start upgrading High Templar damage. It's pretty unlikely you'll survive until this point, however %)
- ???
- Profit
With a combination of some of the supporting units that I've named, a well placed hellion, 4 siege tanks and 4 missile turrets in perfect spots, this is probably by far the optimal build considering that the main damage dealers all share a common upgrade.
All just my opinions and might be invalid after I dig into the new patch or just because I am yet to discover proper use of other different compositions.
Some suggestions:
- The siege tanks yield by far the best results in this TD. Their ability to dish out spikes of damage and them covering pretty much 80% of the map when placed in proper positions as well as their splash damage just crap on any other general purpose unit ability. I never understood why decreasing their min range was necessary. Now that the regeneration has been altered to be more balanced, you might want to increase tank min range slightly again to not allowed pretty much extremely tightly placed tanks only stop firing for a few seconds, which is probably just gonna be their reload time anyway.
- Slightly increasing hellion attack line width would be pretty amazing. Atm if a hellion misfires by a really small angle, it only seems to hit 1 unit.
- Some of the range indicators are still quite ambiguous due to the nature of pathfinding and UI indicators in this game. For example placing an Archon close to the middle will display that it will cover two squares of the top road correctly and one square towards the bottom right of it too. The problem is that it actually doesn't do it 100% reliably. It seems to let some units pass through that bottom square, and sometimes it still attacks.
Here are some more thoughts on different things:
I feel like different playstyles are still punished, not nurtured. The forge doesn't do it for me. Believe me, I tried quite a bunch of theoretically even abusive things which should have the potential to counter almost any unit composition. Does not work nearly as well as the siege tank build. It seemed worse by a really significant margin so I don't think it's just a me not knowing how to properly use them.
Missile turret DPS is probably going to destroy air waves now. Need to test, but I felt like missile turrets did their job pretty well already. It was the regeneration air waves that really sucked because they still spawn loads of units and it's really not worth accounting for those one or two types of regeneration air waves that might happen. Those might kill you even if you try to deal with them anyway. Probably that's fixed now and I am actually ok with you allowing more use of minerals to be diverted to ground turrets though.
After my previous rant about speed upgrades and playing a bunch more, I gotta say I am starting to like how the speed upgrades work. Still, it feels slightly underwhelming. The thing is, I've always felt that the upgrade is there to make sure that you're spending your minerals on damage upgrades more and more efficiently as you get more of these upgrades. I didn't think the speed would be used to make the DPS higher because on the long run that wouldn't help. One really needs to find ways to be more and more efficient over time due to how health scales. But like I've mentioned previously this is a bit tough when it comes to 320 upgrades so it only comes into effect for one or two upgrades for me now if I follow this logic. I feel like rushing attack upgrades is generally better otherwise.
Some of the upgrade design could really be iterated on in general, like I pointed out before. Getting 320 minerals is almost impossible due to how hectic the levels become but there's not that many solutions to it other than spending gas properly. I'm not sure that is enough with how the current upgrades and gas units work. Really not sure what the solution could be, but perhaps I need to become more creative with this. This still leaves the forge a problem where you probably won't want to get more than two upgrades in it, unless you decide you feel like spamming High Templar. I guess ending the game early is an ok solution but I liked it more as an endless race until you die.
But yea, this is just a small map and I'm probably thinking too much about it anyway, and rambling now. The map has given me a ton of fun as it is
This map is grand work Morrow. I don't know what draws me in so much. Well, it's obviously the difficulty of it but also the subtlety of choice which makes the difference in results. Really cool and awesome work and I'm so glad to see you're still putting heaps of work into it. Big props
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Way too easy now. beat it on my 2nd attempt after losing ~100times earlier
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Too easy. First Attempt. 20 lives ^^
Some points:
- I had only 1 massive wave at all (Ultras)
- air waves too easy (mainly the regenerating was imba before)
- with 60 lvl u dont get a really tektree - at least with gas
- most upgrades are way too expensive ... for example hydra upgrade
- most gas units than templar and infestor are too expensive.... overlord is just a bit (but the upgrade of it is useless). Warpprism upgrades too expensive too
- Warp prism + overloard should be air units and moveable on the map (with out loosing their upgrades. On the other hand u could have waves much more difficult!
- tank build too strong compared too other units because most units are armored and clumped at the spawn
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ok took some time to think about how the health scaling should work, because there are so many upgrades that add to each other (between tower dmg level, speed and forge, warp prism etc) it was bound to get too easy the longer the game goes. thats why i made it not linear anymore.
the health system is ideal now its all about finding the right numbers for things. after your feedback i went on to test out alot with the siege tank and did some testing and i agree it needed a nerf
3.0
Balance Changes:
- Health scaling on levels is no longer linear
- Start minerals increased from 50 to 55
- Forge vespene cost increased from 60 to 80
- Siege Tank - Crucio Shock Cannon damage reduced from 10 (vs Armored: 15) to 9 (vs Armored: 14)
- Siege Tank - Crucio Shock Cannon range decreased from 13 to 12
- All forge upgrade start costs increased from 100 to 150
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MorroW, don't forget to fix co-op play. You can either play individually (that works) or co-op (with every lane producing units). Fix please!
Me and a friend would like to play co-op, but with just the two of us, every lane has units :/
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I am liking the 3.1 patch so far.
A bunch of things still need addressing in my opinion, though. All opinions, as always, I still like the map and it's fun trying to figure stuff out to avoid the troubles I'd be having.
But here we go:
- I am still of belief that speed upgrades are very underwhelming at the moment - might as well just get a 2nd unit if you don't want to overkill, and the fact that the first upgrade only becomes useful on level 4 is not good at all, in my opinion. Moreover, most splash damage units have really slow firing rate so getting the upgrade is barely noticeable.
- After the siege tank nerf, mass queen waves are REALLY strong. Might want to consider nerfing them.
- Regeneration mass overseer waves are guaranteed to go through at the moment, they need a nerf.
- I could never understand the nerf to the forge, I never get it anymore. It's pretty useful as a late game tool, but that would probably be waves 50+ only, and that means it's only for 10 waves in the current version of the map. I'd suggest a redesign to make the upgrades less noticeable early on but cheaper to get. In case of upgrades, this is something which is ok if it's not super effective and feels strong right after you buy it. So I think it would be best if the upgrades were cheaper, even if their effects weren't as pronounced as they are now, but easier to get. And even more to the point, even now, in my experience, getting upgrades still doesn't result in me noticing what they do even though technically they buff the stats quite considerably.
- I find that making any sort of new builds is still non-beneficial or possible. Having a certain mix of units (not much different from a build order I described before) is the best thing to do and you can only slightly deviate from it rather than having a whole bunch of options to choose from which you would expect to be the case.
Cheers and thanks for giving me hours of fun through something as simple as this mr MorroW
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EPT
