EPTOneGoal: A better SC2 [Project Hub] - Page 66
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CrazyBread92
United States53 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9396 Posts
On June 27 2013 08:39 Nyvis wrote: What he means is that with SCVs only on gas, and mass mules on minerals, you can have a 180 pop supply mech. Since mech is also extremely cost efficient in term of supply, it sounds a bit extreme. SC2's economy might not need to be rewired (I believe it has to, but it's personal and comes from comparisons with other games. But the mule needs to be addressed, I think. Yes exactly. Strong Tanks + mules that can replace scv's doesn't work well together. But even if assume that the mule gets magically fixed (which I doubt will ever happen), then I question whether mech will ever be entertaining without a relative mobility nerf. If you can keep your tanks in a deathball, then mech will always be very boring. At the moment though you will likely see players testing out creative stuff rather than playing the optimal boring way which could make the gameplay seem more entertaining than it actually is. Instead of putting tanks in a deathball, it creates more fun games if he is forced to split out his tanks at different locations. That is why I am suggesting a huge relative mobility nerf. If you don't want to change the economy, then drop play needs a big buff, the movement speed of various units must be changed etc (huge changes are needed here and I doubt you really want to redesign everything at this point). Im not sure why you changed your mind regarding the economy. The only reason an economy change was ever needed was to reduce the army size/active base ratio which makes deathballs possible in Sc2. From watching various vods and reading every change to unit values, I don't see how Onegoal has made improvements in that regard. So I don't really understand how you could come to the conclusion it wasn't needed. It was needed to make deathballing less efficient and the deathball is still there in Onegoal. Did you once think that the deathball created boring games, but has since (for various reasons) changed your mind? Are you fine with the deathball as long as it involves constant fighting? If so, how do you know whether players are actually army trading because its the optimal thing to do or whether they are army trading for the "wrong reasons" (becasue its more fun than turtling). If the former is the case, which specific changes are made in onegoal to incentize players (or give them better tools) to army-trade compared to HOTS? | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
Nothing is exciting about low movement games. Nerfing mechs mobility was something we saw in WoL. Fatter units that cost more and moved slower than their counterparts. It yielded stale and binary gameplay.The Widowmine is exciting and fresh, its like a Reaver and a Lurker had a baby. The tank needs to be more snappy and mobile or every other high mobility unit needs a nerf. I know which one is more likely to be palatable with players and devs alike. As for deathballs. If you give the tools to slay deathballs (AoE widowmines, nastier tanks, Tier 2 Tempests for sniping high profile dps targets, Better defensive Swarm Hosts, AoE Corruptors) and allow for more squad-based, aggressive play (New MSC, New Mothership, more harass friendly stalkers, 1 Supply, speedy hydras, Burrow Harass Roaches, better nydus network, better overlord drops, better medivac drops.) players will figure it out in time. This isn't Starbow, where we are consigned to a niche playerbase and therefore need to strong-arm our visions on how the game should be played. We are attempting to bring some of this stuff into a player base that is very large, and players are smart. If you want a glimpse how Sc2 might look with the same economy and macro mechanics and not be deathball based, look at game two between Fnatic Harstem and Goswsr. Goswsr fought two key battles that turned the game in his favor. Those battles were Stalker/Zealot/Colossi vs pure Hydra with both researches, but no upgrades. Because Colossi attack slower but do more damage, each shot was really important. Goswsr split his hydras up into small groups in the middle of the battle, adjusting his arch while trying to target fire the Colossus. Harstem was kiting with the Colossus and trying to target fire with groups of stalkers. It was a dance not unsimilar to what you saw between Vultures and dragoons in BW. Later, three engagements were going on simultaneously with small zealot forces hitting Goswsrs third, Immortal Warp-ins hitting his main, and a large army pressuring his fourth, where the bulk of Goswsr's force was. That game opened up with Immortal MSC pressure on a fast third by Goswsr. It was packed with back and forth action, and ended only because three things happened in rapid succession along with some minor advantages earlier in the game. SC2 can look like that without having retarded pathing, a slowed down economy, or reworked macro mechanics, or insane nerfs to static defense, or other drastic actions. I know because I have seen what it looks like when #20 GM players play the mod. | ||
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Meerel
Germany713 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
Games start around 30 Min. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
 The big thing is, that does nothing to make the Tank more aggressive like the Widow Mine is. It yields smarter tank play, but it still is a passive unit. Increasing its speed and deploy speed let it it be micro'd with more finesse, but still requires smart positioning to be effective. Having a research that increases primary target damage incentives focus fire and pressuring lightly defended expansions that rely on static defense or a few units to guard them. | ||
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zergJared
United States56 Posts
With hydras being tier one tech zergs have earlier AA availability and can get speed/range faster. This gives zergs an easier way to defend mutas in zvz. For this reason, you should revert or at least nerf the spore bio buff blizzard put in. Its kinda overkill imo for this version of the game. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Knockmysocksoff
12 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Knockmysocksoff
12 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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M05513
Australia6 Posts
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CrazyBread92
United States53 Posts
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bypLy
757 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Knockmysocksoff
12 Posts
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
On June 30 2013 05:48 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: Here is one better. Have the the Vod to the best of 3: http://www.twitch.tv/boisteroussc2/b/422618038 Games start around 30 Min. ♥ gotta get some of that editing up for Vods | ||
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