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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
Not on ladder there isn't. I checked myself and it only takes 2 tumors to take one third or the other on Port Aleksander. + Show Spoiler +
Generally if it takes 3 tumours to connect to a base it would be considered to be a 4th or even 5th, that's not to say you need a choice of 3rd on 2 players maps but on a 4 player it's more important that you can expand in either direction. and just to prove my point here's a list of maps where your thirds are connected by 2 tumours:
+ Show Spoiler +
Year Zero (2), Kairos Junction (2), Automaton (2), Port Aleksander (2), Cyber forest(2), New Repugnancy(2), Stasis (1), King's cove (2 but the creep just barely touches if placed the tumor is placed in the right spot for 1 base), Blueshift (2), Fracture (2), Para Site (3 bases), and to name a 4 player map Darkness Sanctuary (2)
if it takes 3 tumours to get to either of your bases zerg gets screwed because it's harder for them to defend drops or aggression, and depending on spawn positions it can be amplified by the fact it's a 4 spawn map, not only that, it's far enough that it makes it hard for protoss to take a third safely.
Having some areas be chokier and others wide open is fine, but your center is just a wide open space with a small hole in the middle where anything daring to travel up there looks like it would just get surrounded by lings and because of the size of the middle it looks like it just shoves everything else out and the main looks like it does that same making the area you have in between very cramped. and if you break down the rocks you basically have 1 direct path to the opponent which I don't think is interesting.
I'm not sure how much the watchtowers will deter drops especially since the most direct route can completely avoid it and the bases are close by air with a lot area covered by the base i think the inhibitor zones would probably do a better job of that.
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Haha oops Syphon, I did mean 45 degrees! I think most of the issues would be solved with the rebuilt rotated map.
As far as the chokiness, I believe there is nothing wrong in theory with open areas and small chokes, but they have to be practical and balanced for fair use by all races. Here, I think the choked area is too long, making it very strong for P/T vs. Z, because there isn't a space to catch the army in a surround. Realistically, it will be difficult for Z to initiate an army fight on the highground (except in cross positions) because P/T have no reason to be up there.
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On February 24 2019 00:19 Invalid99 wrote:Not on ladder there isn't. I checked myself and it only takes 2 tumors to take one third or the other on Port Aleksander. + Show Spoiler +Generally if it takes 3 tumours to connect to a base it would be considered to be a 4th or even 5th, that's not to say you need a choice of 3rd on 2 players maps but on a 4 player it's more important that you can expand in either direction. and just to prove my point here's a list of maps where your thirds are connected by 2 tumours: + Show Spoiler +
Year Zero (2), Kairos Junction (2), Automaton (2), Port Aleksander (2), Cyber forest(2), New Repugnancy(2), Stasis (1), King's cove (2 but the creep just barely touches if placed the tumor is placed in the right spot for 1 base), Blueshift (2), Fracture (2), Para Site (3 bases), and to name a 4 player map Darkness Sanctuary (2)
if it takes 3 tumours to get to either of your bases zerg gets screwed because it's harder for them to defend drops or aggression, and depending on spawn positions it can be amplified by the fact it's a 4 spawn map, not only that, it's far enough that it makes it hard for protoss to take a third safely. Having some areas be chokier and others wide open is fine, but your center is just a wide open space with a small hole in the middle where anything daring to travel up there looks like it would just get surrounded by lings and because of the size of the middle it looks like it just shoves everything else out and the main looks like it does that same making the area you have in between very cramped. and if you break down the rocks you basically have 1 direct path to the opponent which I don't think is interesting. I'm not sure how much the watchtowers will deter drops especially since the most direct route can completely avoid it and the bases are close by air with a lot area covered by the base i think the inhibitor zones would probably do a better job of that.
Haha, oops! I meant third of course, not natural, and I stand corrected it didn't look like 2 got there when I tried. I think I have a better layout worked out with this now, thanks for the feedback. Choking up the centre a bit, levelling out the sides. It looks way better.
On February 24 2019 05:02 monitor wrote:
Haha oops Syphon, I did mean 45 degrees! I think most of the issues would be solved with the rebuilt rotated map.
As far as the chokiness, I believe there is nothing wrong in theory with open areas and small chokes, but they have to be practical and balanced for fair use by all races. Here, I think the choked area is too long, making it very strong for P/T vs. Z, because there isn't a space to catch the army in a surround. Realistically, it will be difficult for Z to initiate an army fight on the highground (except in cross positions) because P/T have no reason to be up there.
But it still doesn't involve rotating it 45! sheesh, work me why don't you.
I find it interesting that you two have exactly opposite takes on the high ground centre--Invalid thinks ling surrounds would be OP, you think Z could never engage/surround.... I'm going for ambiguous, so that's good!
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I don't think monitor means the high ground center, I think he's referring to the low ground where the thirds are intended to be because they are in close proximity and there's a few tight chokes leading into it, the most direct being the one with the rock tower, because that area is so chokey they would never engage into the much more open high ground. but they are forced to if they are north/south or east/west I was more so talking about what looks like x5 or x6 ramps leading into the very open high ground.
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Noted all, thanks for the feedback. How does this look?
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/OFfsCNC.jpg)
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Looks better. Your map also reminds me of Crevasse because of the middle and use of rocks. You may want to continue taking inspiration from Crevasse and make the naturals in-base expansions if you don't have enough room. This could also help compensate for the difficult thirds (tbh I don't think you can make the thirds any safer; they're already as close as they realistically can be to the nat/main, and there's no room to push the triangular one any further away from the high ground mid). And hey, risky thirds also incentivize players to take those juicy island expansions!
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Looks more like  Frost to me. I don't really understand the point of the gold island bases to be honest. Why not get rid of them? Other than that good map.
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Really like the first one, but i think you should break up the high ground. Maybe push the ramp back to the highground corner base, and make the part closer to the lowground thirds a detached pod.
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On March 07 2019 09:46 Syphon8 wrote:
Really like the first one, but i think you should break up the high ground. Maybe push the ramp back to the highground corner base, and make the part closer to the lowground thirds a detached pod.
I'm unsure what you mean by detached pod. Close the edge path to the low ground third and just use one ramp that leads outside the third choke? Or separate the high ground by that base from the rest of the high ground it is connected to? Both interpretations don't really seem like something that would improve the map, unless the third is too vulnerable. I could experiment with moving the ramp back though. I just recently made a map thread for the first one.
The other three are still very much works-in-progress. I'm done with the layout on the second one and have started decorating, but I'm still working on the layouts for the latter two.
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I'm working on a 4p map, hoping to minimize spawn disadvantages, while keeping a lot of the interesting features of the map (varied game depending on spawns, corners conducive to late game scenarios, 'balanced' asymmetry). Anybody spot immediate problems with this layout? There are slowing zones outside of the in-base expansion.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I think if you are trying to minimize spawn disadvantages, an in-base expansion is not a good idea, though I recognize that this is one of the features that makes the map unique. I love using slow zones to affect drops, I think it's clever and not too intrusive.
The 3/6/9/12 o'clock low ground paths between the fourths, along with the cliff that extends towards the center, seem overly restrictive to me. While this may be useful for minimizing spawn imbalances by putting pressure on players to move through the center, it may not be the best for gameplay in general. I'm tempted to suggest rocks, but rocks are another feature that can imbalance 4p maps.
Even though the in-base expansion is a half base, I suspect that the high yield gas will change some of the early/mid game, especially for Terran. I'd love to see some cool build where someone expands to mine only the gas to support a new timing attack.
Do you think the rocks that shrink the ramp are necessary? You're already putting three bases (2.5 bases?) behind a single choke.
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Good points on the limited pathing through the center, I agree that I should open up some pathways for larger scale engagements and opportunities for counter attacks/surrounds. I'll try some ideas and post another pic when I get around to it (I am going very slowly on maps lately).
As far as the rocks at the "natural", I think I will have to keep them to allow for regular wall offs (as if it was a 2x ramp), because of the scenario where it is unfeasible for a certain race to take their in-base expansion as a natural. For example, I want to avoid further tipping the scales in a scenario where for some reason Terrans can take their in-base expo as a natural but Protoss needs the double gas expansion in PvT - if the ramp had no rocks, Protoss would be at a serious disadvantage in early game walling a 3x ramp vs. Terran walling a 1x ramp. Obviously once both players take the three bases it doesn't matter, but I want early game to be relatively similar to the current meta.
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Here's my contribution, Moth Station.
Btw how do you add these pics to preview in-game?
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/pGniSzs.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ZbnUjN0.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/4fw3e2S.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ldkRjbT.jpg)
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been working on this recently, looking for some feedback
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/a8s4u2W.jpg)
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Hi all!
Looking for some feedback on some recent 2p maps I have been messing around with. Any suggestions/concerns are greatly appreciated.
Anvil 140x156
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/VHzAHwq.png)
Midnight 140x156
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EDjXNu4.png)
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On August 10 2019 07:10 monitor wrote:Hi all! Looking for some feedback on some recent 2p maps I have been messing around with. Any suggestions/concerns are greatly appreciated. Anvil 140x156 Midnight 140x156
I've always like the lowground passage down the middle concept that Anvil goes for, but in this case I don't think the payoff of taking the lowground path is sufficient. The lowground path isn't much shorter than the path parallel to it on the midground, and with it being rather narrow and the watchtowers overlooking it, there just isn't much reason to take it (outside of the very early game). Also I don't like the Heartbreak Ridge style expo right above/below the main. It's too far out to take, and adds a ridge behind the triangle third, which is already the more vulnerable third. I do like the core ideas of Anvil very much though.
As for Midnight, the gold bases are very central, which means they probably won't be taken. And without the gold you're left with a map with interesting flow in the middle that might not come into play at all because all the other expansions hug the edges of the map, and require you to spread yourself quite thin to defend them. I think part of it is that 140*156 is very big for a map, so Midnight could be a lot more compact (as could Anvil to a lesser extent).
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Do you guys think this type of layout is way too crazy? What types of problems do you see coming up? Thx in advance!
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/y8ksBqe.png)
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On August 19 2019 07:04 monitor wrote:Do you guys think this type of layout is way too crazy? What types of problems do you see coming up? Thx in advance!
There isn't much precedent to go off of given apart from Dasan Station, and Dasan also had a super-short rush distance, so I'm mostly guessing here (there are a few more examples like Aiur Plateau, but they never saw much play).
Obviously drops and air play will be extremely strong given the bases are pretty close by air and all the angles of entry. Nydus swarmhost also looks pretty busted if the game ever reaches that stage since literally every base is extremely vulnerable to locusts from a bunch of angles. Having no ramp to the main is problematic, because that lessens the defensive advantage early on by a lot (both due to vision, and the increased surface area on the walling buildings). The fact that the natural has two openings compounds that. The middle that forces you to go a long way around is also iffy, because it's very easy to get into accidental basetrades if both players send their armies to the opponent using the two paths that are very far apart.
I'm not sure if a map with the main not on the edge of the map is doable or not, but at the very least I think it needs to allow ground units to get around more easily given that this type of map fundamentally helps air.
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Any feedback I could get on this would be appreciated.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/4jGBDDG.jpg)
Here is the placement grid for scale. Map size is 152x152. Rush distance natural to natural is similar to Kings Cove. (142ish pathing distance) That shortest distance takes the northeastern most path. Going the other way it is 157ish. That gold base third option is a half base. That is, it has half the total resources of a normal base.
+ Show Spoiler +
I have also been toying around with the idea of putting island bases in the corners.
+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/m8sLdaH.jpg)
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