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Work In Progress Melee Maps - Page 187

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin
SwedenTheKid
Profile Joined July 2014
567 Posts
February 10 2016 03:26 GMT
#3721
On February 03 2016 22:27 deymos wrote:
First of all, hello everyone!

Map work name: Cold Point
Players: 2
Size: 96/96
Link: battlenet://starcraft/map/2/189605
Published: EU

[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +

Mapis almost finished. Idea was to make map different of most popular one. Lot of them (also maps created by community) are max-symetrical, clear, clinic... Idea was to create "primal" map - with all natural enviroment, a little bit chaotic. Just few thoughts:

1. There are very few small maps in map pool (and current haven't got any) and by small I think about Steps Of War or even Blood Bath (that was fun!) - in my opinion, LotV gameplay is created for such type of maps by small amount of resources and very high speed of the game. This is also reason why it's so few space for buildings besides main.

2. There were very few maps with such main bases placement and I think this is most important feature of Cold Point - they are placed at center of the map, backwards to each other with very small air distance. Standard map architecture: safe, main base at corners and expands in front of that - any danger comes from sides, and from sides you can access to your enemy mineral lines (even Ulrena, which I adore, besides small air distance has such architecture). But what if revert that concept, and make main base available from each side? Also, please notice the mineral patches placement. They are not at standard place - near wall or map end - but in center of main, near future base structures. First - this is unique and will force new "sim city" strategies, Second - it provides some balance to main base placement (it's easier to protect mineral line). Third - vespene placement at edge of main makes it easy to harass. And in mid-late game it's key resource, so the idea is "force" some low-eco games, when each unt count and this may be very interesting. Area between main bases also can be used if You have high ground vision - but not for reapers, colossus etc.

Main (please note very narrow entrance):

[image loading]

3. Third expansion is gold base, which may encourage to take it as second - but it's cool thing which PT from current map pool proves. It's also hard to defend becouse of wide ramp

4. Second expansion is safe, and "pocket" but it has narrow valley behind main base with destructable rocks. It's also a way to attack main base from each angle, which I mentioned in 2. Reaper harassement can be high effective.

Valley:

[image loading]

5. There is island gold base if players want to play longer game or... maybe terran will risk to fly there with CC? also fact of having island makes game little bit deeper according to fact that there are only 10 bases at this map and lot of airspace - so this is one of safest expand places.

Island (please note you can also fly overlord there, or blink, or go with reaper):

[image loading]

6. Last but not least - there are only few ice based maps and I think that we need some variety in map pool - f.e. at current lot of 1v1 maps has some protoss-releated structures/colours/themes (Ulrena, Central Protocol, Prior Terraces, Dusk Towers)... Even GSL maps.

Please, fell free to test, look and judge



Okay, map analysis.

Cons
-Main can be sieged by tanks and even most other long range ground units.
-Drops will be very hard to deter, due to exposed bases. Drops will make tanks even more effective.
-Gold island makes Terran to strong.
-gold corner bases don't need to be gold, again favoring Terran.
-There is only one straight path by ground between starting positions. Between everything actually.
-Rush distance is really, really short.
-Map is to small. Small maps have a special place in my heart, but this map is to small. This is a small map for Brood War standards.
-Cardinal ramps. Always use diagonal ramps as a default, if you can. They look better, and people are more used to dealing with them.

Pros
-The pathway behind the main is kind of interesting, although not the best execution(?).
-I like the snow.
-Has Island bases. Even though they don't work balance wise, I still like the idea of Gold Islands.

Recommendations

Make the map bigger. Fix the main, it's way too exposed. Having a wide ramp doesn't make a base harder to defend, sometimes it makes a base easier to defend. "Defenders Advantage", the ability for the defending army to always out-move and ready itself to the attacker, is what makes bases easy/hard to hold. The Defenders Advantage on this map is basically maxed out, since there is only one attack path that can be defended at one ramp. Thats nearly half the bases on the map controlled by one choke. Luckily, that wont be an issue, since the map is so small and games will never make it past the early stages. Not a pro, but something to consider when fixing the map. Although micro maps are cool, games should always have the possibility of going longer, even if its not much of a chance. Again, 98x98 is to small for a sc2 map, at least when the rush paths are so short.

If it seems like I'm providing to much negative feedback, sorry. I really do like some of the concepts of the map. But it definitely needs major fixing.
Casual Mapmaker
deymos
Profile Joined February 2016
35 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 15:52:00
February 10 2016 09:26 GMT
#3722
If it seems like I'm providing to much negative feedback, sorry. I really do like some of the concepts of the map. But it definitely needs major fixing.


Actually if it's anything wrong with that, is that it taked so long (waiting for feedback)

Althought map seems to be finished there were reasons why it's placed at that exact topic - it's more like visible explanation of ideas that I maked, therefore execution is off. Now I have your notices so I can work on that and make it new but with similar concept.

EDIT:

This is what I've talking about - based on similiar idea, although look very different. I took advice about one patch leading everywhere, yet wanted to try achieve both bases in the middle, short air distance, patch behind minerals but on the other hand make main base less fragile to harass. And it's bigger (160x160)

Please notice, that this is just picture for show idea therefore it isn't polished etc.

[image loading]

So the idea is that you have 2 pathes of potential expands from your main and both have their disadvantages - you may kill rocks at your backdoor and go for gold (red arrows), but this is far, it's at front of the opponent and you just uncovered second entrance to your main Then you have to expand relatively far from there to the center, but there is short air distance from your main and you can try do defend this expand from there,

Second option is much safer (green arrow), but there is no gold expand. On this patch you may also choose your fourth - opened gold or regular and not so open, but with ramp behind all of that.

I didn't want to make path upon the main to don't make it to easy to attack for each angle, so I decided to make narrow path through enemy base (yes, it stenches ulrena, I know). But it can be interestind and it's diagonal, so distance isn't too close.

Any thoughts about that? I was thinking about making island expands from those at 2 and 8 o'clock...
deymos
Profile Joined February 2016
35 Posts
February 12 2016 19:47 GMT
#3723
It will be very welcome to see your thoughts about this idea, event it's crap - maybe some experienced mapmakers yet remember how important is feedback at the beginning
Xenotolerance
Profile Joined November 2012
United States464 Posts
February 17 2016 06:23 GMT
#3724
first draft of new layout

172x172 2 in 1
[image loading]

there's a fair amount of unmarked unpathable terrain

I think I will move the top right / bottom left mains and naturals closer in and remove that 3rd, clean that area up
www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
February 17 2016 15:25 GMT
#3725
@deymos: I think there isn't enough room for army movement on the map, your only options are attacking through an awkward backdoor path or an even more awkward tiny center path that's very easy to defend. Also the main minerals should be repositioned so they can't be attacked from the low ground.

@Xenotolerance: I like the use of 1x ramps here. Seems too easy to defend 4 bases at the bottom left/top right spawns.
vibeo gane,
Dratini25
Profile Joined October 2015
10 Posts
February 17 2016 17:40 GMT
#3726
all these maps look super zerg favored and perfect for very aggressive ling based styles.
Xenotolerance
Profile Joined November 2012
United States464 Posts
February 17 2016 18:12 GMT
#3727
On February 18 2016 02:40 Dratini25 wrote:
all these maps look super zerg favored and perfect for very aggressive ling based styles.


Assume that that's not self-evident, and elaborate. Don't just say What, also say How. We're not mind-readers. I don't see a lot of zerg favor in the recent maps, but I want to know what you see, so tell us.
www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
February 17 2016 18:20 GMT
#3728
@Xenotolerance: interesting ideas. I don't think I like the existence of any of the rocks rocks/rock towers or the usage of space around the TR/BL naturals.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
deymos
Profile Joined February 2016
35 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-17 19:13:49
February 17 2016 19:13 GMT
#3729
On February 18 2016 00:25 -NegativeZero- wrote:
@deymos: I think there isn't enough room for army movement on the map, your only options are attacking through an awkward backdoor path or an even more awkward tiny center path that's very easy to defend. Also the main minerals should be repositioned so they can't be attacked from the low ground.


Thank you very much for notices. I've maked another iteration:

[image loading]

So as You can see I've maked main mineral line more harass-resilient. That was simple

Patch on center is now much larger to create some space for army movement - but I've left some chokepoints to make this area little easier to defend (short rush distance) and to let a little dance of units in early game between two corridors in the middle. Yellow lines will be los blockeros.

I've also maked cliff to the third more narrow to make it easier to defend. Intention is to make longer games possible because easy expansions, but give short rush distance.

You may also go to awkward backdoor (more space there now), or go side path on highground.

Another change is possible 4th location with gold base. I've wanted to make sides of the map important area due to expansions which are easy to attack, but have to be defended by controlling lot of chokepoints and highground which can make lot of interesting skirmishes.

I'm thinking about middle gold location - maybe move it more to the center?

What do you think now?
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
February 18 2016 00:08 GMT
#3730
Hi everyone. I decided to learn how to try out the map editor since I had thought of a map concept, and while I like how some of my ideas turned out, the map ended up too choky. It does feel pretty unique though which is nice. Any ideas on how to make this map better?

Name: Palenque
Size: 164x164
Spawn Positions: 1.5, 4.5, 7.5, 10.5
[image loading]
Xenotolerance
Profile Joined November 2012
United States464 Posts
February 19 2016 00:19 GMT
#3731
now 156x160

[image loading]
www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance
Xenotolerance
Profile Joined November 2012
United States464 Posts
February 20 2016 22:10 GMT
#3732
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 18 2016 04:13 deymos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 00:25 -NegativeZero- wrote:
@deymos: I think there isn't enough room for army movement on the map, your only options are attacking through an awkward backdoor path or an even more awkward tiny center path that's very easy to defend. Also the main minerals should be repositioned so they can't be attacked from the low ground.


Thank you very much for notices. I've maked another iteration:

[image loading]

So as You can see I've maked main mineral line more harass-resilient. That was simple

Patch on center is now much larger to create some space for army movement - but I've left some chokepoints to make this area little easier to defend (short rush distance) and to let a little dance of units in early game between two corridors in the middle. Yellow lines will be los blockeros.

I've also maked cliff to the third more narrow to make it easier to defend. Intention is to make longer games possible because easy expansions, but give short rush distance.

You may also go to awkward backdoor (more space there now), or go side path on highground.

Another change is possible 4th location with gold base. I've wanted to make sides of the map important area due to expansions which are easy to attack, but have to be defended by controlling lot of chokepoints and highground which can make lot of interesting skirmishes.

I'm thinking about middle gold location - maybe move it more to the center?

What do you think now?


Loads better. It still has got a somewhat fundamental problem just in its overall shape. If your army is on one side, and you get attacked on the other side, you can't possibly get in position in time to defend. So each base needs to be easier to defend, by using smaller chokes, or good defensive watchtowers, that sort of thing. More room for the defender's army than the attacker's. As it is, defense is untenable.

That said, I actually recommend just moving on to the next map. Start fresh with a new idea, and keep it simple. Good way to learn
www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance
Xenotolerance
Profile Joined November 2012
United States464 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-20 22:20:17
February 20 2016 22:18 GMT
#3733
goin ham
[image loading]

middle high grounds are pathable. the little paths between the center cliffs are pathable, blocked by rocks. TR/BL position now has three entrances to the main, one of which is a gold mineral wall below a ramp to the center.

Is this map creative enough?

closeups of the mineral wall and center paths
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
I may or may not want to put LoS blockers behind the minerals to prevent free blinks
[image loading]
www.alonetone.com/xenotolerance
SwedenTheKid
Profile Joined July 2014
567 Posts
February 24 2016 04:06 GMT
#3734
[image loading]

Small map idea, I'm not really aware of the current lotv meta, nor do I know what kinds of maps we should be focusing on for lotv (haven't gotten the expansion).

May try a similar idea on a larger scale with more bases, and more middle of the map structure.
Casual Mapmaker
SwedenTheKid
Profile Joined July 2014
567 Posts
February 24 2016 23:24 GMT
#3735
Been working on an older concept, made a map similar in the past, but received mixed opinions. Map is 144x144, spawns are top right and bottom left. 2 Xel'Naga towers, gold can be mined from either side, and ramp near the natural has 2 destructible unbuildable plates to prevent fast walloffs (the naturals choke can still be walled off though.

[image loading]

Feedback is appreciated.
Casual Mapmaker
deymos
Profile Joined February 2016
35 Posts
February 25 2016 19:00 GMT
#3736
[B]

Feedback is appreciated.


What I like:

-Straight-forward path from main to main
-main, expand and third on the same level and exp with natural choke - I've also work on similiar combination, think it's underused. Love when surface shapes makes defending easy, not only ramps. Here, as I think, it's achieveable.

What I don't like:

-well, it's only my humble opinion, but I think that gold expansions covering ramps, paths etc. are not always good idea, and I see them more and more. Here also seems to be little forced. Not every map will be Terraform, sadly, which is masterpiece honestly. At this map gold minerals covering patches and being fragile from the other side is inprinted in whole map concept. At your map it honestly don't serves any particular reason.

This expansion is much more suitable for taking by player who has it's from "backside" of gold base - I suggest to turn those minerals at 180 degree (faced to the east of the map) and make them vulnerable from the center - maybe make two ramps, one covered with rocks, and then it will open new patches at the late game also.
Kaeque
Profile Joined January 2016
22 Posts
February 25 2016 19:31 GMT
#3737
(2) Misty's Valley
144x160
[image loading]

One of the spawn's is not showing up for some reason, however the map works and it's up on EU
Wouldn't call it finished though. aesthetics are still very basic, and I want to get a more jungle-y feel in the end.

Lay-out feeback is much appreciated though. I know it's probably a little too Boring™, but maybe the choice of a forward gold 3rd or a more defendable standard 3rd can make it dynamic enough.
/keɪk/
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
February 25 2016 20:11 GMT
#3738
I think the third is a little too far away, and I think it's strange that the gold third would be on the way to it. Because of this, in most circumstances, you would want to take the gold expansion as your third and then the third as your fourth. To counteract this I think the safer third needs to be made more safe by either moving it closer to the natural, shrinking the chokes or a combination of both.

Something you want to be careful with are all the areas of negative space on the map. It's necessary by the golds, but it could probably be reduced in some other areas.
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
February 25 2016 20:14 GMT
#3739
@Sweden
I really like the second concept. I have something similar to it that I was working on but forget about and never finished. Mineral walls are something that definitely needs to be explored more, especially for gold expansions as a risk factor.

In your first concept, I'm worried about the limited paths through the center. It looks like the map will become split in half late game.
SwedenTheKid
Profile Joined July 2014
567 Posts
February 25 2016 22:45 GMT
#3740
[image loading]
(Images)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]


Added another option as a forth base, made the corner bases islands that can be blocked by collapsible rocks fron the outside (something I tried on my first map ever, a while back). My main struggle now is the gold. Do I keep it? I see now the map would work alright without it.

Poll: Do I keep the gold double-sided bases?

Yes (4)
 
80%

No (1)
 
20%

Keep the bases, but have them not be double-sided (0)
 
0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Do I keep the gold double-sided bases?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Keep the bases, but have them not be double-sided

Casual Mapmaker
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