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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On November 01 2014 03:58 Riski wrote:Update (or more like rework from scratch) : Before + Show Spoiler +After + Show Spoiler +I mainly tried to open the middle, to get a decent 3rd placement, to have a real 4th choice, and to make the golds at a 1-height cliff, more interesting placement.
It's pretty nice now. I think you should remove the space behind the forward third's mineral line, and put one geyser on each side of the defensive third, because now that it has a proper placement that is less coined up against the natural having both geysers exposed like that is not cool. Maybe the ramp near the defensive third is too wide, I'd try to make it less wide and/or add rocks or a rock tower here.
I like how the middle evolved, it feels nice now, the only thing I don't like is the gold bases' placement. Their mineral lines are in the way of army pathing, and I fear it would lead to some chaotic battles/army movements. You could also remove the ramp going from the XNT to the middle of the map, Yeonsu-style, to allow the placement of strategic units there when your opponent's army uses the middle path.
The sides are cool, I like the KSS vibe, but as Meavis said they are pretty far, so you could make the map more in height and less in width. Also, your cliffs are pretty straight when you're using an artificial cliff model. I know it sounds logical to make straight lines with artificial cliffs and less straight lines with natural clifr, but if you look at maps like Foxtrot, Habitation or Nimbus you'll see that even manmade cliffs look nicer with a less straight approach.
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On November 01 2014 05:24 daboss9635 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +But I think that maybe you should switch positions of the bases with the position of the ramps at 3 and 9 a clock, so then it will be more efficient to travel to the right top and bottom left corners of the map. It will probably also be a little bit easier to defend the bases because there will probably be a smaller cliff behind it to defend and a larger and diagonal ramp which will allow you to easily break a siege if your opponent decides to siege on the high ground.
On November 01 2014 07:23 Meavis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +hm, the sidebases are pretty far relative to the rush distance, I would reduce the horizontal axis and increase the vertical one.
On November 02 2014 20:03 OtherWorld wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think you should remove the space behind the forward third's mineral line, and put one geyser on each side of the defensive third, because now that it has a proper placement that is less coined up against the natural having both geysers exposed like that is not cool. Maybe the ramp near the defensive third is too wide, I'd try to make it less wide and/or add rocks or a rock tower here.
I like how the middle evolved, it feels nice now, the only thing I don't like is the gold bases' placement. Their mineral lines are in the way of army pathing, and I fear it would lead to some chaotic battles/army movements. You could also remove the ramp going from the XNT to the middle of the map, Yeonsu-style, to allow the placement of strategic units there when your opponent's army uses the middle path.
The sides are cool, I like the KSS vibe, but as Meavis said they are pretty far, so you could make the map more in height and less in width. Also, your cliffs are pretty straight when you're using an artificial cliff model. I know it sounds logical to make straight lines with artificial cliffs and less straight lines with natural clifr, but if you look at maps like Foxtrot, Habitation or Nimbus you'll see that even manmade cliffs look nicer with a less straight approach.
Thanks for feedback guys, I'll definitely take a look at all this before doing aesthetics. About the gold base placement, I'm thinking of making it the same orientation as the other side bases and changing a bit the high ground shape above it. It should allow more army movement on the gold high grounds and I should be able to get the far-side bases closer to the middle with the space gained from here. Next update will be in its own thread I guess 
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bE9XZC1.jpg)
Open natural, but the map has features to make it okay:
-Only 2 points you need to have a unit in in order to see all paths
-Island for Terrans
-Decently easy 3rd for toss if they break the rocks, which is not rly hard when normally Protoss takes a 3rd.
-Can be walled by 2 gates and 2 pylons, leaving only a space for a zealot: + Show Spoiler +
Nat to nat rush distance is about 42 sec, Playable bounds are 136x100.
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On November 02 2014 19:11 Ej_ wrote:thanks for the help, came up with this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dnaXNu0l.png]) -removed most of the potentially abusable areas -made the ravage over the horizontal 4th bigger, should make that base easier to defend -added the double middle base (you can fit 2 town halls there); it has 1 rich gayser because of space usage
-One thing I should have mentioned about middle bases is their tendency to turn into "winner bases". That is, only the player in the lead with better map control can take them. This is a bad mechanic because it limits the losing player and doesn't allow him a chance to get back in the game. The middle high grounds are an improvement, but the double bases in the center make it kind of a winner-take-all middle, especially with 2 watchtowers near each other. I would personally put the 2 bases on the low ground hugging the cliff of the middle high ground(remove the smaller ramps and put the bases there?).
- The towers are better but very close, kind of missing the point of having them controllable by both players at the same time, but if you moved the middle bases farther apart(and on the low ground) I think the towers would be fine.
- Also, I think one of the mains has a 45 degree ramp. As a general rule, never use horizontal or vertical ramps. They are weird and hard to wall off.
-can stalkers blink from the non-gold 3rd to the main if you removed the low ground between them? I would make that area unpathable. It would make the main more defensible (stalkers very strong)
Overall an improvement.
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On November 03 2014 02:50 SwedenTheKid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2014 19:11 Ej_ wrote:thanks for the help, came up with this: -removed most of the potentially abusable areas -made the ravage over the horizontal 4th bigger, should make that base easier to defend -added the double middle base (you can fit 2 town halls there); it has 1 rich gayser because of space usage -One thing I should have mentioned about middle bases is their tendency to turn into "winner bases". That is, only the player in the lead with better map control can take them. This is a bad mechanic because it limits the losing player and doesn't allow him a chance to get back in the game. The middle high grounds are an improvement, but the double bases in the center make it kind of a winner-take-all middle, especially with 2 watchtowers near each other. I would personally put the 2 bases on the low ground hugging the cliff of the middle high ground(remove the smaller ramps and put the bases there?). - The towers are better but very close, kind of missing the point of having them controllable by both players at the same time, but if you moved the middle bases farther apart(and on the low ground) I think the towers would be fine. - Also, I think one of the mains has a 45 degree ramp. As a general rule, never use horizontal or vertical ramps. They are weird and hard to wall off. -can stalkers blink from the non-gold 3rd to the main if you removed the low ground between them? I would make that area unpathable. It would make the main more defensible (stalkers very strong) Overall an improvement.
I put the watch towers on the middle base mostly because I fucking hate those SH ZvPs where players just circle around the middle of the map (hello Nimbus) and I thought Protoss could hold the mid with those covering the sides.
dunno about stalkers tbh, I guess I'll have to check it
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Yeah like I said the towers are fine, if you moved the middle bases farther apart. The middle only needs 2 ramps IMO. Any more and it really doesn't make players really have to think about the rout they take through the middle, as it is so connected. (Being so open makes it really favor Zerg, if you know what I mean) Don't know to much about the SH meta game at the moment, so you could be right.
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Thank you guys for all the feed back you gave me so here's what I came up with:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/H2KFNDD.jpg)
Please note that the decorations and textures aren't all in corperated.
So feed back on the structure of the map primarily is a HUGE help.
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On November 03 2014 14:36 daboss9635 wrote:Thank you guys for all the feed back you gave me so here's what I came up with: Please note that the decorations and textures aren't all in corperated. So feed back on the structure of the map primarily is a HUGE help.
I really like the way you did the middle of the map, although I'd say it lacks places to park an overlord (I don't believe it would be out of range of a marine if you'd park it in the middle holes?). I just feel you have the part you removed behind the golds be normal terrain, it would allow pressure from behind the gold's mineral line to balance out some crazy gold strats.
I like the layout too, standard but solid and not too turtly nor open (well some people may find the third/fourth bases too open but I think they're fine). However I don't see the reason of putting the two geysers of the horizontal third further from the natural, they are both exposed that way. It would be better to have one on each side imo.
The main may be a bit big (?), so I would remove the main part that touches the vertical third. The wall width is fine but it is probably out of range of a hatchery's creep and maybe of a Photon Overcharge casted at the natural (not sure). You should also make a high-ground pod near the wall for overlord parking, and it would be nice to have a bit of air space behind the natural so that you can park an overlord out of range of queens in ZvZ to peek in and see your opponent's drone count.
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Thanks for your feed back once again
I definitely agree that the main is a bit large but i'm not 100% sure that i'll change that. I will add many spots for overlords.
I will also make the gold more easy to harass whilst not making additional attack paths.
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looks okay, but I think you need to scale up the entire thing, pathways are to small
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My first time experimenting with this type of symmetry. Worried about rush distance (map size 150 by 150 aprox) and the close top bases. My original goal was to make a small 1v1 map with a middle similar to the BW map Blue Storm. The idea being the middle pathway would be abandoned later in the game. The Island base has collapsible rocks which block ANY core building placement. All high ground pods are no-pathing. I'm quite new to map-making, so I don't expect this map to be balanced in the slightest. Hopefully its not to bad...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pkz9TTc.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0MAyFjz.jpg) Will probably re make this area by removing the center base and increasing the distance between the outer bases, so both players could hold one at the same time (without being inches away from each other). Could use some feedback.
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Nice work on your map swedenthekid. Looks like you've put a lot of effort into it. The texturing on it is very nice. But there's probably multiple small tweaks that you could do on the layout and structure of the map to make it a bit better. One thing is maybe you should add a watch tower some where just because of the size.
Overall though it has stunning appearance and is a very unique map.
Keep up the good work!
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Looks quite fun. However there may be a Blink problem in PvT because you can basically pressure the natural choke and threaten to blink in the main from the same spot/with minimal movement. I'm also not a fan of the main extending behind the natural mineral line, because it prevents overlord positioning there. Also the natural choke is probably out of range of Photon Overcharge, which Protoss would probably heavily dislike. Overall it's a nice map though, at least I can't find anything making it inherently bad/broken
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On November 05 2014 15:08 daboss9635 wrote:
Nice work on your map swedenthekid. Looks like you've put a lot of effort into it. The texturing on it is very nice. But there's probably multiple small tweaks that you could do on the layout and structure of the map to make it a bit better. One thing is maybe you should add a watch tower some where just because of the size.
Overall though it has stunning appearance and is a very unique map.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks! It's the first map I've posted and one of the only ones I've taken seriously. I thought about a watchtower in the center, but then didn't go for it since it looked to standard. If I redo the top right I will probably add a tower to that path. I'm also probably going to alter the center pathway a little bit.
Feedback appreciated.
Also, glad you like the textures. I will be redoing all of them once I get a layout people are happy with. I promise they will be even better! (I really like how the bridges turned out)
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On November 05 2014 15:20 OtherWorld wrote:
Looks quite fun. However there may be a Blink problem in PvT because you can basically pressure the natural choke and threaten to blink in the main from the same spot/with minimal movement. I'm also not a fan of the main extending behind the natural mineral line, because it prevents overlord positioning there. Also the natural choke is probably out of range of Photon Overcharge, which Protoss would probably heavily dislike. Overall it's a nice map though, at least I can't find anything making it inherently bad/broken
Thanks for the feedback. I will be changing the main to allow for overlord placement. Not to sure how to go about with the stalker problem without reworking the 3rd. That was a concern when I first drew out the map. As for the nexus overcharge I could allow players to have the option of walling in at their ramp, or just change the natural altogether. Will experiment with moving the high ground 3rd north (I'm reworking the top right bases anyway) giving me more room to alter the main and natural. Surprised the feedback has been primarily positive
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what concerns me on your map with this symmetry is that there's only 1 viable 3rd, and both of those are quite close to each other, I recommend you go for a more planet-s style main nat 2x3rd setup with this kind of symmetry, rather than your current heavy rain like setup.
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Yeah after checking out neo planet s again I agree that sort of main/nat/3rd would work better for my map, plus it would solve the blink/photon overcharge problems. Thanks for the input.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sQnPnfw.png)
will be away from my PC for a few days. How does this look? Low ground 3rd by nat ramp removed.
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look, the problem with your map is the rush distance over that high ground in the middle, that kept that location from being viable as a 3rd base, and the alternatives were lacking.
by placing your natural choke there, you're only creating issues with rush distance, all you have to do from the initial version, is think out the locations of your 3rds better.
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Ok. I get what your saying. What makes the high ground 3rd not preferable? Because I might make that the optimal 3rd.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jicjIw6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bxQI9S4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6O1OsZY.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dnaXNu0.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2PcGPRJ.jpg)
