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I've been playing this map quite a bit on the NA server, playing everyone in the channel and currently have a 77% win rate (scrolled through all the games to total up).
Suggestions, if I may
1) Hydras are far too weak until late game when they have 3/3 or at least 2/2. Hydras start with low damage at a good speed but are dying to few numbers of units and can't control things like muta harass in ZvZ or an early protoss 4/5gate push.
2) The reaver is a strong unit but is very situational because it is extremely slow and very fragile. An additional "siege" unit would be good to add in place of the immortal in the robotics bay. The immortal is a unit that doesn't get a lot of usage because of the removal of the zerg roach. With terran mech only being vulture tank goliath immortals aren't necessary and thats really the only situation theyre even viable in. The terrans I've played may have a few tanks but it's dominantly bio play.
3) Zerg feels very slow compared to the other two races. In my PvZ games regardless if the game goes early/mid/late I find zerg is at the disadvantage at all times. I think adding a third larva to the inject ability will keep zerg in the game with production instead of overly forcing macro hatches.
4) Infestor has little use to zerg without fungal and swarm guardian is a hive tech unit. I think the infestor needs an additional spell for that mid game play and as well as to add a damage spell to zerg. Perhaps give back fungal growth but remove it's snare ability, so that fungal is just a 30 DoT (damage over time) spell and 45 DoT vs mech.
Comments on my experience so far
--I personally like the warpgate nerf, adding an additional 10 seconds to unit delay. This gives protoss players more incentive to use warp prism + warp in as harass or attacks and use the gateway as primary function instead of warpgate. I personally just compensate the delay with more gates but thats because my style is excessive warp prism + proxy pylon play.
--The economy at the start of the game has a nice speed to it so that you get into the game right away. Nobody likes to sit there and watch probes mine for 3 minutes so it is a nice touch increasing the economy speed at start and still forcing you to expand in the mid/late game to a fast 5 base.
--Besides Zerg seeming a bit weak the balance thus far is very well done. There's no "auto win" builds from what I've seen and there are a variety of 1base and 2base opening plays that are viable.
--Feels like broodwar with sc2 graphics and a twist. A lot of broodwar units AND spells are back as well as some new units which add to the uniqueness of each race.
--Overall the mod is very well done and I've stopped playing regular SC2 for quite a while now and have been just playing Starbow for the past 3 weeks with decembers and the NA crew. I would love it if some of the EU crowd could come play on NA :D I need new competition ;-) Very well done to the makers of the map, thank you for such a great mod.
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Just a note on Zerg. It feels like P has a really hard time dealing with Zerg.
In TvZ it feels like an actual match most of the time. In PvZ if Zerg goes eco heavy and doesn't get caught with its pants down or extremely outplayed, it won't be long before Z can capture the entire board with superior eco. This might be due to my inexperience with the match up though. Me and LoS have been trying various ways to beat Z with P, both players trying both races. Every other match up he hasn't beaten me except for one or two times that I can remember.
Playing TvZ my matches are usually decided by me effectively either harassing the Z, or delivering a strong bio or tank push.
With P, speedlings and hydras can quite effectively deal with any sort of warp prism play, and Z if they are on top of their eco and scouting can hold an 8 gate two base all in if they see it coming.
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Arkuss just completely invalidated my results  .
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I poopie on Zerg with good manners 
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My N/A PvZ win ratio is almost 100%. The losses come from me trying 1 base stargate or some stupid cheese
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On September 17 2012 06:20 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:04 Laertes wrote:
I want force fields, there is no reason not to have it, we will see some fun scenarios from units with force fields in the future. Force Fields have potential. Many players hate it but I do like them for various reasons. But having them on HTs is not a good idea. It will cause problems with storm plus that players get so confused with the Feedback/Force Field switch. And I don´t see any other unit to put it on. I can change color on them to red so they fit with Dark Archons.. But that does not feel right either
Forcefield is an anti-micro skill, it has to be expensive and high in the tech tree so it's rare.
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would it be possible to send replays for analysis?
if you truly do have almost 100% wins then its probably worth studying why your opponents struggle so much, if it's simply mistakes on their part or if it is legitimately tougher on the zerg side. and if it really is harder on the zerg, then hopefully we can identify in what way, when and why.
as for increasing the larvae output from inject, I wouldn't recommend it.
inject larvae is a touchy spell that have been severely nerfed in starbow for a reason:
ninja edit: in fact it was removed from the game for a long stretch of time for this reason.
to make it less mandatory. many many players (including myself) have complained that they do not like the fact that SC2 forces you to use inject, choosing not to is practically always the worse choice.
so it was nerfed, heres a little bit of math:
SC2 inject mineral efficiency: (4 larvae/40 seconds)/150 minerals = 1/1500th larvae per mineralsecond
SC2 hatchery mineral efficiency: (1 larvae/15 seconds)/300 minerals = 1/4500th larvae per mineralsecond
so in SC2 inject gives you 3 ((1/1500)/(1/4500)=((3/4500)/(1/4500))=(3/1)=3) times more larvae per spent mineral than hatcheries do. extremely much more powerful in other words.
starbow inject mineral efficiency: (2 larvae/60 seconds)/150 minerals = 1/4500 larvae per mineralsecond
starbow hatchery mineral efficiency: (1 larvae/20 seconds)/300 minerals = 1/6000 larvae per mineralsecond
so in starbow inject is 33.333...% ((1/4500)/(1/6000) = ((4/18000)/(3/18000)) = (4/3) = 1.33333... = 133.333...% = 33.333...% better) more efficient than hatcheries, thus, for larvae production purposes, getting 2 queens for "empty" macro-hatcheries is strictly better than getting a hatchery even though both cost 300 minerals (maxing out in supply is extremely rare) the one reason for hatcheries being better than queens is the fact that hatcheries have more health and is thus harder to snipe.
however, we do not see a trend of players getting queens to all hatcheries, so this fact is left alone and regarded sufficiently balanced as is.
but my point is that inject should under no circumstance be buffed in relation to hatcheries, rather they should be nerfed.
the best option would be buffing both together, since that would also take care of the fact that several players (especially new ones) have reported that zerg production is unusually slow, however, it is slow for a reason and thus it should not be buffed by much.
all of this assumes of course that an imbalance is found and production increase is deemed to be the solution. and so far this has not happened so everything is simply speculation.
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Finally, some time on a computer with a real keyboard instead of my phone, and without people constantly interrupting me!
Quick note on Zerg:
I'm getting some mixed signals from people here about whether Z is currently underpowered or overpowered, particularly in regard to Hydralisks and larvae production. I got a chance to play three ZvPs today but it was hard to make any conclusive statements on balance, since they were my first Starbow matches and I haven't quite adjusted to the rhythm of the new economy yet.
I can however make a few suggestions in terms of design. First of all, I think Hydralisk speed should be returned to Hatchery tech. At the same time, I would nerf their range by another 0.5 increment and increase the range upgrade bonus by the same amount to compensate, while keeping that upgrade at Lair tech.
Allow me to explain my reasoning, starting with an analysis of the Zerg tech tree. Each tier of Zerg tech has an overarching theme behind it in SC2 (you should notice by now that I tend to think on design choices in terms of thematic elements and how they fit with each other). The first Tier is about short ranged, cheap ground units. Zerglings and Banelings are both melee, and Roaches weren't much better, especially in the early days of WoL when they had range 3.
Lair tech was about attacking from new angles - underground or from above. Burrow research, Burrow-move Infestors and Roaches, Nydus Worms, Overlord Drops and Spire Tech is all unlocked at Lair. Hydras were the only flaw in the pattern. In Starbow, with the return of the Hydralisk to its proper place in the tech tree, the addition of Lurkers which can only attack while burrowed, and the ability for Infestors to cast an additional spell while burrowed (Neural Parasite), this theme is made even stronger, which I find very appealing. I personally think the Hydra Den should always have been made T1, and the Roach Warren swapped into its place in T2 with the move-while-burrowed mechanics made more integral to Roach play, but again Kabel's already solved that anomaly (I do have some ideas for implementing Roaches in such a capacity though! I'll save that for another discussion).
Hive tech was about Massive units (Broodlords and Ultralisks) and some major upgrades (Adrenal Glands, new Hydra speed in HotS, though that second example is irrelevant to us of course). I believe that the Nydus Worms should be treated as a "Massive unit" from a thematic perspective and returned to the game in Hive tech (also parallels the Nydus Canal in BW that way), and the Swarm Guardian removed as it doesn't meet that requirement (with Dark Swarm moved to the Queen for a number of reasons that I have already discussed previously).
But again, why Hydralisk speed at Hatchery tech? Kabel's reasoning for giving it a T2 requirement was to weaken early rushes and augment the defender's advantage. I like this. However, I think the same effect can be achieved by reducing the range, which would make Hydralisks more vulnerable to static base defenses and well positioned high ground units. A faster speed upgrade would instead give them more map presence in the open during the early game, something that feels much more aggressively zergy than slower, longer ranged units.
Back to Protoss Casters:
We'll start with the Dark Archon since that's where I left off earlier. To reiterate, my idea was to make them fit the lone, offensive, self-sufficient caster role more than that of the supporting one, in keeping with the lore.
For this reason, I would prefer to move the Void Shell ability to another unit, and replace it with something that would be beneficial to cast with or without supporting units for the DArchon. In particular, an ability that could somehow augment the DArchon's numbers would be nice - Mind Control was a great example of this in BW (resulted in one less unit for the enemy, and one more for the DArchon's forces), however I agree that we shouldn't bring it back due to a clash with Neural Parasite on the Infestor, which feels just as fitting for Zerg.
Hallucination would serve a similar purpose, but it lacks the offensive edge of Mind Control which removed threats while adding potentially combat-effective bodies to the Protoss' side instead of simply creating a diversion.
I think a neat, offensive twist to Hallucination would be if it targeted an opponent's unit, causing it to appear like an enemy Protoss to its allies who would auto-attack it if it were in range. This would be sort of like the inverse of Neural Parasite. Can you imagine casting this on a charging Ultralisk with Banelings in tow, or a Carrier that would be shot down by its own Interceptors?
Another idea I had was to tweak Feedback. As I understand it, the way the spell currently functions is to simply destroy any unit with energy. I would restore it to the Brood War mechanic of draining all energy from the unit and converting it into damage dealt, but with the added twist that it would deal that damage as splash centered on the targeted unit, potentially taking other units out with it!
If both of these spells were introduced the Dark Archon would begin to develop a theme of crowd control in the sense of 'don't let your units stand too close too each other', but it would do so in a way that would not overlap with area control spells like Psi Storm or other AoE damage dealers.
I'd still like to see something different about Maelstrom as well. Maybe just moving Vortex over from the Arbiter in its place and granting the Arbiter a new spell. I had an idea for a more microable stasis spell that would essentially Phase Shift a large group of units out of the current plane so that they could neither attack or be dealt damage, but could still move around. I feel like that would have less overlap with Vortex on DArchon.
Up next, my ideas for the return of the Sentry.
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@Roblin: The primary problem with the zerg feeling so slow is just in the early game. I'm not going to argue your math because I barely even understand it but zerg in terms of the early game does have a bit of a slower start. As for the win rate, I'll send in replays after I get some closer competition. Right now I'm just using gateway units. Zealot Archon shuts down most of zergs options while I warp prism in the main and send DT's to a third/fourth, rinse and repeate every PvZ.
Some people complain that Zerg without roach is a bit underpowered because of how fast Hydralisk melt. Hydras are strong units at 2/2 upgrades and beyond but this leaves a hole in the Zerg army at the early game for a beefy ranged unit. An example of the weakness of hydras is that in a ZvZ I did earlier, 7 hydras couldnt kill 5 mutas, even when the mutas went stationary for 2-3 seconds. The hydras DPS is very low at early game not including their armor benefit. Not sure how to balance it myself, just an observation as PvZ seems to be my most common matchup on Starbow NA server.
@Smile: I think the Dark Archon is fine the way it is but I do agree with the feedback fix. Killing anything with energy auto kills key units like Science Vessels and Swarm Guardians. If its damage revert that adds more strategy like we see in modern ZvP today in ladder with Overseers depleting their energy before engaging into battle. If a science vessel has 100 hp it can waste energy to get below 100 energy then fly in, depending on it's role. Obviously if you want to use an energy spell with more energy than the units HP it's a risk/reward scenario. Maelstrom is a very strong crowd control skill so I don't see any reason to remove it. Maelstorm paired with Psi Storm to me sounds like a lethal combination.
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I know a lot of people are against the "anti micro" skills but BroodWar itself had this (arbiter statis, dark archon maelstrom) and they have a lot of potential to be used. Best way to get to best of both worlds is to limit the radius of such spells to a small area so you can trap retreating units or lock in units at the front line. Contains/Snares are viable and balanced if every side has one and if the unit that has it doesnt have an ability to do damage, that way theres now a decision to make about how many non fighting units you want in your army.
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Of Sentries and Immortals:
Or why these two units are in the wrong places on the tech tree in regular SC2.
Think about it for a moment. Historically, what units came from the Gateway? Zealots, Dragoons, and Templar of your High and Dark varieties. Three of these units were Biological. One was Mechanical, however lorewise it is simply a shell containing the mortally injured form of a Protoss warrior. It is still a sentient being that was born of flesh, now sporting a more sophisticated exoskeleton than the basic wargear of a Zealot.
In SC2, what is different? The Zealot and Templars are still Gateway units. The Dragoon has been replaced by the Stalker, its Shakuran cousin of a similar nature. And what became of the old Dragoons? With the facilities to create them on Auir destroyed, the remaining number was modified and augmented with more powerful weapons and defensive capabilities, to try and preserve the dying order of veterans as long as possible. These are the Immortals. Of course they, like Stalkers, are also built from the Gatew- wait, what?
A Robotics Facility? Really? Was five units on the Gateway too much? Nope, there's a new Gateway unit. Oh look, it's a fucking robot. Of course that belongs in the Gateway and not the Robotics Facility. What was I thinking, Blizzard. You really know how to make your lore feel consistent!
I think it is our duty to rectify this injustice in Starbow. Yes, it's true that lore should take a backseat to game mechanics - but I can give you several reasons why this change could be positive for both.
Firstly, I think the introduction of the Sentry into Starbow, with a new set of spells, could give us more interesting gameplay options and more maneuvering room for the Protoss caster repetoire. The thing is, we already have two casters that come out of the Gateway now, with the return of the DArchon. If we left the Sentry in Gateway tech the numbers would be kind of awkwardly skewed, with three casters coming out of that path, and the Arbiter coming out of the Stargate.
However, if we make the Sentry a Robotics unit, there would now be a nice balance of casters among the three main Protoss tech paths. Two in Templar tech, one in Robo, and one in Stargate. Much nicer.
What about the Immortal though? Isn't that too powerful of a unit to require only Cybercore, or to be Warped-in all over the map? I'd say yes to the first question, but no to the second. Immortals have a number of weaknesses, particularly in Starbow, to balance out the flexibility of Warp-in. But how to solve the tech requirement?
Well, we give them their own structure of course! A little offshoot building unlocked after Cybercore, that would result in additional strategic decision-making for the Protoss player. If they're going down the Gateway tech path, do they want the added mobility that the Twilight Council offers, in Speed and Blink upgrades? Or do they want slower, more robust anti-armor support in the Immortal?
But what building to use? Easy answer. The Dark Shrine is currently out of commission, as DTs are once again unlocked via Templar Archives. So, recolor it gold, rename it to Shrine of the Fallen or Shrine of the Immortals (which feels sexily appropriate lorewise, as it implies the structure is some sort of memorial to the dead Dragoons and Immortals whose numbers can never be replenished) and throw a range upgrade (maybe name it Trinity Charge?) and an upgrade for Hardened Shields in there. Boom. Perfection.
After that we can tweak stats, build times, resource costs and what have you as balance requires, but I think the general idea is extremely solid. Now back to the Sentry!
Sentry Spells:
First off, NO FORCE FIELD. We have enough options for area control in the High Templar, Reaver, DArchon and Arbiter.
What do we keep though? Definitely Guardian Shield. It looks cool, it feels cool, it's a little bit overlooked in SC2 because Force Field is so ubiquitous, and we have some nice opportunities to mess around with it. For example, instead of a flat damage reduction (which high ground advantage and D-Matrix on the SciVessel ((or Medic)) does now) we could have it block projectile attacks. Doesn't that overlap with PDD? Nope, cause PDD is gone in favor of Nerve Jammer. Pretty nifty circumstance we got there! I would also make it function like the Ghost or Wraith's Cloak effect, i.e., activation cost and then drains energy to sustain itself rather than lasting for a preset time.
Hallucination is gone in favor of the new DArchon spell I just suggested. But what did it take the place of, that needs a new home? Void Shell. Hey, goddamn, that's a protective spell which fits the Sentry's emerging theme. Let's make that sucker a research on the Robo Bay.
Now for the final spell. I think, by removing the Sentry's attack (to discourage massing and spamming Void Shell on everything), we could repurpose the animation as a Shield Charging beam, and let the Sentry essentially act as a Protoss analogue to the Medic. This would give it a nice synergy with Immortals, Archons, and even Photon Cannons, among the other potential uses. It also brings back the forgotten Shield Battery of BW in spirit.
So, in conclusion, we'd get the following set of spells and changes among the Protoss casters.
~Gateway Tech~
High Templar:
Chrono Matrix (50 energy, smaller AoE than current Arbiter version.)
Psionic Storm (Unchanged.)
Morph Archon
Dark Archon:
Feedback (50 energy, drains all energy from target unit and converts it to splash damage in a small radius centered on the target.)
Vortex (Moved from Arbiter, unchanged, requires research at Templar Archives.)
Phantom (100 energy, causes target enemy unit to be auto-attacked by its allies, requires research at Templar Archives.)
~Robotics Tech~
Sentry:
Fortify (Converts Sentry energy to shields on friendly Protoss unit at a rate of X points/second, uses old attack animation.)
Guardian Shield (25 energy activation cost, drains energy at a rate of X per second, creates a Guardian Shield that blocks incoming projectile attacks, i.e. point-defense drone.)
Void Shell (100 energy, turns friendly unit benign for 30 seconds, research at Robotics Bay.)
~Stargate Tech~
Arbiter:
Cloaking Field (Passive.)
Rift (50 energy, teleports a friendly unit from anywhere to the Arbiter's location.)
Phase Shift (100 energy, large AoE, all affected units become invulnerable but unable to attack for X seconds.)
And that's all I got for Protoss.
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If you remove the Immortal from the Robotics Facility than it becomes a purely support structure with a unit thats only useful in very few situations. The broodwar reaver was a great unit but it doesn't have it's same punch in SC2 and even with Starbow mod it still doesn't live up to it's 1998 ancestor. In terms of having the immortal being warpable remember how strong it's "hardened shield" ability is and think of being able to warp those in a terran base when you have him preoccupied.
As for protoss casters as I said before, the abilities seem fine to me the way they are. The only abilities I don't use/abuse is recall from Nexus and the Arbiter unit because it's a final tier unit. It's always nice hearing people give new ability suggestions though but I will fight with you to the death to keep Maelstrom on Dark Archon. Love your feedback idea though.
I'm not trying to be rude, just a devils advocate to your suggestions.
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On September 18 2012 11:47 ArkussSC2 wrote:
If you remove the Immortal from the Robotics Facility than it becomes a purely support structure with a unit thats only useful in very few situations. The broodwar reaver was a great unit but it doesn't have it's same punch in SC2 and even with Starbow mod it still doesn't live up to it's 1998 ancestor.
People will still build Robo's for Warp Prisms and Observers, and there is a ton of potential for experimentation with my Sentry idea.
If Reavers are too weak, they can be buffed also! Balance is subservient to design.
In terms of having the immortal being warpable remember how strong it's "hardened shield" ability is and think of being able to warp those in a terran base when you have him preoccupied.
Again, stats and costs can be tweaked as balance dictates. I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with warping Immortals into a base. Terran has Stimmed Marines, Lockdown/EMP, and Planetary's. Until we see a tactic like that performed we can't know whether or not it's actually too strong.
As for protoss casters as I said before, the abilities seem fine to me the way they are. The only abilities I don't use/abuse is recall from Nexus and the Arbiter unit because it's a final tier unit. It's always nice hearing people give new ability suggestions though but I will fight with you to the death to keep Maelstrom on Dark Archon. Love your feedback idea though. I'm not trying to be rude, just a devils advocate to your suggestions.
Well Kabel specifically asked for ideas on changing Protoss casters, so I obliged! They might be okay how they are right now, but I feel like they could be much better.
As far as Maelstrom goes, that's probably the change I'm least concerned about. If people really feel strongly that DArchons should keep it, let me know your reasoning. I just thought that Vortex felt more 'Dark' and self-sufficient. Maelstrom in its new nerfed form, compared to BW, feels less self-sufficient than Vortex and so isn't as true to the philosophy that I feel the DArchon, as a unit, should embody.
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I don't see why such massive changes are needed. I don't see anything wrong with the protoss spellcasters right now except high templars forcefield.
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Because Kabel asked for suggestions to change around the Protoss spellcasting suite. Additional excellence:
- This version of the DArchon is truer to the way it functioned in BW.
- The HighTemp and Arbiter I suggested allow for more micro on the whole.
- Adding the Sentry is awesome because having more strategic options is awesome.
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The only reason sentries got made was for forcefield. It's not important that things ressemble the way they were, only that theyre skillful and balanced.
Also this idea for recalling one single unit late game will never ever be used. If you really want to give arbiter a recall just give it mass recall.
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On September 18 2012 13:53 scen wrote:
The only reason sentries got made was for forcefield. It's not important that things ressemble the way they were, only that theyre skillful and balanced.
Well now they have three good reasons to be made, which are all more interesting than Force Field. What's wrong with giving players more tools?
Also this idea for recalling one single unit late game will never ever be used. If you really want to give arbiter a recall just give it mass recall.
Take that one up with Kabel, he designed Rift. I happen to think it has potential, and besides Mass Recall is already on the Nexus.
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Finally back home again. Thats a lot of replies from you all! : D
@ArkussSc2 Quote to his post:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2012 06:56 ArkussSC2 wrote:
I've been playing this map quite a bit on the NA server, playing everyone in the channel and currently have a 77% win rate (scrolled through all the games to total up).
Suggestions, if I may
1) Hydras are far too weak until late game when they have 3/3 or at least 2/2. Hydras start with low damage at a good speed but are dying to few numbers of units and can't control things like muta harass in ZvZ or an early protoss 4/5gate push.
2) The reaver is a strong unit but is very situational because it is extremely slow and very fragile. An additional "siege" unit would be good to add in place of the immortal in the robotics bay. The immortal is a unit that doesn't get a lot of usage because of the removal of the zerg roach. With terran mech only being vulture tank goliath immortals aren't necessary and thats really the only situation theyre even viable in. The terrans I've played may have a few tanks but it's dominantly bio play.
3) Zerg feels very slow compared to the other two races. In my PvZ games regardless if the game goes early/mid/late I find zerg is at the disadvantage at all times. I think adding a third larva to the inject ability will keep zerg in the game with production instead of overly forcing macro hatches.
4) Infestor has little use to zerg without fungal and swarm guardian is a hive tech unit. I think the infestor needs an additional spell for that mid game play and as well as to add a damage spell to zerg. Perhaps give back fungal growth but remove it's snare ability, so that fungal is just a 30 DoT (damage over time) spell and 45 DoT vs mech.
Comments on my experience so far
--I personally like the warpgate nerf, adding an additional 10 seconds to unit delay. This gives protoss players more incentive to use warp prism + warp in as harass or attacks and use the gateway as primary function instead of warpgate. I personally just compensate the delay with more gates but thats because my style is excessive warp prism + proxy pylon play.
--The economy at the start of the game has a nice speed to it so that you get into the game right away. Nobody likes to sit there and watch probes mine for 3 minutes so it is a nice touch increasing the economy speed at start and still forcing you to expand in the mid/late game to a fast 5 base.
--Besides Zerg seeming a bit weak the balance thus far is very well done. There's no "auto win" builds from what I've seen and there are a variety of 1base and 2base opening plays that are viable.
--Feels like broodwar with sc2 graphics and a twist. A lot of broodwar units AND spells are back as well as some new units which add to the uniqueness of each race.
--Overall the mod is very well done and I've stopped playing regular SC2 for quite a while now and have been just playing Starbow for the past 3 weeks with decembers and the NA crew. I would love it if some of the EU crowd could come play on NA :D I need new competition ;-) Very well done to the makers of the map, thank you for such a great mod.
1. Hydras are both considered strong and underpowered. Protoss players both claim its easy and hard to win vs Zerg. I will not change any stats for it yet. Maybe something is fishy with the Hydra but I will give it more time.
2. Immortal is important in PvP and useful in TvP. It is especially good vs Siege tanks and Goliaths. Terran seems to go heavy mech on EU and Immortals is crucial in that scenario. It is however not so useful vs Zerg. Maybe in lategame vs lurkers and Ultralisks. The Reaver is indeed a very situational unit that is slow and fragile. Thats the drawback of it! In the right situations the Reaver can be devestating. I am although not 100% happy with the current Reaver design.
3. According to Roblins calculations, Zerg should be on a similar production pace as the other races. Many Zerg players do however feel that they lack larvas. Some players seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of macro hatcheries and relies completely on Queens. As the game is explored further, if it turns out that Zerg indeed is too weak I will try to boost the larva spawn rate.
4. I haven´t published the latest patch yet, but it has a version of Fungal Growth. It works just like normal Fungal but slows the enemy attack and move speed by 50% for 12 seconds. It deals no damage since there are so many other damage units for Zerg: Scourge, Banelings and Lurkers. I think that might be good synergy: trap the enemy with Infestors so the AoE damage units can kill them.
I also agree with Roblin. If you have a nearly 100% win rate I really gotta see some replays. Are the skill difference between you and your opponents vast? On EU there are atleast two master players, Danko and Puccini, that play this vs each other on a regular basis. (As I know of) And they have ca a 50% win rate vs each other in all match ups. (Don´t know if you are a master player though)
Glad you seem to enjoy playing it!I am always trying to improve this MOD further.
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@ SmileZerg Thanks for a well written post. I always enjoy reading posts like this with a lot of though put into it. I will try to give my reply and views to each topic you bring up.
Many players have suggested to bring back the Hydra upgrades to Hatchery level. I think it would look better if both upgrades are on the same tech level since there is not a huge power level between them. (Like Zergling speed and attack damage is. The later is a dangerous late game upg that has a huge impact on your army)
Many players also seem to think that the Hydras are very weak and fragile in the first part of the game. If I give back Hydra upgrades to Hatchery tech that might solve the problem. If so, I will probably increase their build time a bit. From 80 to 140 seconds or something, so they will not be super early.
I do fear that it will give Zerg a too big early defenders advantage vs Protoss, due to the creep bonus. (Not often I complain about that ^^) I consider it a problem in BW that Protoss could not have much map control vs Zerg in the first 8-10 minutes of the game. The Zealots could not hurt the fast enemy Hydras until they got Zealot speed. Corsairs was often the only Protoss unit you could see on the battlefield early. Hydras in Starbow, with fast speed upgrade, will out micro Zealots, Stalkers and even Corsairs much easier on creep now. They will even catch the Warp prism with Reaver!
Obviosuly the creep bonus can be nerfed on Hydras. But I think creep should give a good bonus since it makes players more eager to spread it. So it not becomes an "uncessary" thing to do. And that will create some fast early Hydras that probably will be able to "contain" the Protoss. After all, Blizzard choosed to give all Zerg ranged units speed upgrades to lair or hive tech and I think they have a point with that. (Ok thats only Roach and Hydra, but still) I am not saying it can´t be done. I just don´t think the positive aspects will outshine the negative ones. Unless I nerf the Hydra even further to compensate for its faster speed.
Besides this, I agree with the lore aspect of the Zerg stages of the tech levels. Maybe I put Nydus back in again.
Lets continue with the Protoss. You have put a lot of thought into it and you have some thematic and game mechanical points.
@Immortal being warped in
I did experiment with having both the Dragoon and Stalker in the warp gate for a while, a few months ago. The Dragoon could only shoot ground and was beefy and slow. The Stalker was swift but weaker. Kinda like the Immortal/Stalker difference is now..
I felt that by adding the Dragoon to the Warp gate it took away some of the uniqueness from both the Stalker and Dragoon. I think the same issue will arise with Immortal/Stalker as warped in units. The Dragoon was a unit you mostly prefered to spend your money on since it was a better unit for its cost. Why should one choose the "weaker" Stalker? The elegant thing in SC2 is that sometimes the circumstances will make the Stalker the better choice over Colossus/Immortal, simply by allowing you to warp them in were you need them.
By enabling both the "strong and weak" options to be warped in, it takes away one of the advantages of the weaker unit. I would consider Stalker a weaker unit that the Immortal, atleast vs P and T. (Although this is a discussion on its own) The Immortals downside is that it is built at a bad spot. You need to transport or walk slowly to the combat to benefit from them. Something Scen on the EU server does a lot. He likes to ferry them into combat and do nice micro things with the Warp prism to "absorb" spider mine damage with the Hardened shield and snipe tanks with its high bonus vs armored. If Rift is added to the Arbiter, you will be able to add more mobility to the slow Immortal and Reaver. By allowing Immortals to be warped in takes away a crucial target for Rift. (Assuming it will even be a good or useful spell at all)
As fas as lore goes, the Immortal is so heavily armored that it must be built in the robotic facility and is simply to fat do be warped in. ^^
@ Sentry at Robotic
If there is room for one more caster it is definitely in the robotic bay! It would enable a caster in all three production buildings. But I will probably not add it to the game now. The reasons are:
- We need a unit that is not the Sentry model.
- It needs a "better" line up of spells. (I will explain what I mean with "better")
First of all, the Sentry is associated with the SC2 Sentry, The enemy will be used to thinking it has Force Field etc. Finding another model will surely be possible, even though there is none in the editor. Maybe fan made models can be used.
The line up of spells you suggest for it partly depends on a huge rearrangement of the Protoss caster spells. (More about that further down.) To explain what I mean with "better spells" I gotta begin from the start.
One of the main things I try to focus on in this MOD is to split the Deathball. One way I have done it is by making the units be less clumped up due to some value changes. But the major way to split the deathball is by making it NOT be the best way to move your army. The players gotta want to split their units and keep them seperated, even outside combat. And why is that important?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6FkrJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ot7q4.jpg)
One other way I have tried to improve this is by making each base regenerate less resources and workers compared to SC2. It will hopefully strengthen the importance of harassment and skirmish combat. You can´t destroy the enemy so easily in one big blow. You need to deny expansions, kill workers and stop him from growing at different places. But we are talking about combat now and spells, so lets continue with that.
I think that strong AoE-spells is one way to make players keep their army seperated. At least when it is time for combat.
Thats one of the reasons I gave EMP back to Ghost since it is an invisible unit that can strike the enemy army at any point, thus the enemy don´t want to clump up his casters.
Thats why I want Plague to be in the game in some way.
Thats why I want Maelstrom, or something similar, to be in the game too.
Thats why I removed Guardian shield in the first place. It makes your army better when it is clumped up. (I know, its the same thing for Arbiter cloak which is a thing that bothers me) Obviously the area of effect on the Shield can be reduced, but you could just build a few more of them.
I think that the spells you suggest on the Sentry adds nothing to the game. Don´t get me wrong, I am not saying they are bad ideas. They would work. Even a spell like Void Shell is an uncertain spell. Should it even be in the game? But by not adding the Sentry now, and instead adding it when HotS is released and this MOD is more complete, we might see areas Protoss needs to improve upon, or possible models in the HoTS editor that can be used.
(The pictures I talk about above.. Is this MOD like that? No, obviously not. Not every spell, unit or mechainc supports that theory or must support it. Sometimes I must give in to familiar things from the SC world even though they could be improved to work in different ways, and sometimes I try my own ideas that are not always fully thought out. This is just my theory and view of what some good aspects of a RTS can be. And there are obviously million of ways to make a good game! )
Lets look at the other spells your propose:
Feedback that drains energy, deals damage to the target and splash damage to all units nearby. I love it! Brilliant! It causes the enemy to keep his army seperated, which strengthens the importance of army control and gives opportunities to players to find weakness and attack certain parts of each others seperated armies.
Vortex on Dark Archon. It would probably work as fine as Maelstrom does. But once again I let certain things be in the game due to their classic value. Maelstrom was an iconic spell on the Dark Archon and had dangerous synergy with Psi Storm.
Phantom on Dark Archon, to create hallucinations of enemy units, is a nice idea and it might be added in the future. Maybe to replace Void Shell, if its removed or moved to another caster? The only thing I think about is how it shall be used. As a snipe spell? Distraction? Make it tank some damage from your own army?
Phase shift on Arbiter. If I understand it correctly, it is Stasis Field? Or they can move but not attack and take damage? I think the last thing might lead to some weird situations where you use it on your army, moves up to the siege tanks and just waits until the buff is done. Or move into his base.. Maybe I don´t understand it correctly. But I would like to bring in the old Stasis Field back in someway, either like it is in BW or with a twist, for many reasons.
Anyways, thanks for a well written suggestion. I hope I did not sound too harsch.
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