• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 10:07
CET 16:07
KST 00:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 100SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1819Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises2Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !11
StarCraft 2
General
SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Starcraft 2 Zerg Coach ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !
Tourneys
OSC Season 13 World Championship WardiTV Mondays $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play
Brood War
General
StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone I would like to say something about StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ (UMS) SWITCHEROO *New* /Destination Edit/
Tourneys
SLON Grand Finals – Season 2 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Elden Ring Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI 12 Days of Starcraft
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
National Diversity: A Challe…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1001 users

[A] Starbow - Page 81

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 79 80 81 82 83 537 Next
scen
Profile Joined November 2011
Wales61 Posts
September 17 2012 01:47 GMT
#1601
On September 17 2012 09:39 pzea469 wrote:
I don't see why the arbiter doesn't have recall. Blink and warp prisms aren't a good excuse not to have it. They do completely different things. Warp in creates new units and they stay there. Prisms can help you warp at a location and carry a few units. So why is recall obsolete? Recall teleports a large portion of your existing army to the location of the Arbiter. Blink doesn't replace that, especially since it only works on 1 unit. Recalls were exciting to watch in BW, hallucinating arbiters to increase the chances of the real one getting a recall off right before dying. It should come back.

Stasis and Vortex are replaceable so I'm okay with that. Stasis was interesting because it made the units invincible, vortex does the same. It also lasted a good amount of time so you could stasis units on ramps and block them. Vortex can do the same I think. So I guess as long as vortex lasts long enough to act as a good ramp block, I'm good.

Benign seems a little weird to me. I guess it could be useful, but it just seems odd. I'd have to see it used more.

I have no problem with force fields. What I have a problem with are spells that are spammed. In SC2 players made so many sentries to cast forcefields, and that's what annoyed me. It's sort of what annoys me about blink. No problem with the spell, I just hate seeing too many spells all the time. I think we can do without it for right now though, since I can't think of where to really put it. I think we could use the oracle unit model for some interesting things later, so maybe there.

On the topic of protoss, I'm not sure why the immortal is in. The way the immortal is right now, it seems like a boring unit. I'd say scrap it.


Recall is on the nexus thats why the arbiter doesn't have it. Also the immortal is in because otherwise its literally impossible to deal with terran mech.
SmileZerg
Profile Joined March 2012
United States543 Posts
September 17 2012 02:42 GMT
#1602
On September 17 2012 10:44 scen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 07:19 decemberscalm wrote:


Its not crazy abusable like it is in SC2 by simply not having as much of the spellcasters and sharing energy pool with the all important storm.



of course it is nothings changed except you need to make 1 extra high templar. Personally i would prefer guardian shield over forcefield.

Vortex is kinda crap in this because theres nothing to archon toilet. I think a spell that would be awesome would be something that affects a large area and after a delay destroys everything in that area(except buildings).


You just described Nukes, and hell they even hit buildings.
"Show me your teeth."
pzea469
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1520 Posts
September 17 2012 03:30 GMT
#1603
On September 17 2012 10:47 scen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 09:39 pzea469 wrote:
I don't see why the arbiter doesn't have recall. Blink and warp prisms aren't a good excuse not to have it. They do completely different things. Warp in creates new units and they stay there. Prisms can help you warp at a location and carry a few units. So why is recall obsolete? Recall teleports a large portion of your existing army to the location of the Arbiter. Blink doesn't replace that, especially since it only works on 1 unit. Recalls were exciting to watch in BW, hallucinating arbiters to increase the chances of the real one getting a recall off right before dying. It should come back.

Stasis and Vortex are replaceable so I'm okay with that. Stasis was interesting because it made the units invincible, vortex does the same. It also lasted a good amount of time so you could stasis units on ramps and block them. Vortex can do the same I think. So I guess as long as vortex lasts long enough to act as a good ramp block, I'm good.

Benign seems a little weird to me. I guess it could be useful, but it just seems odd. I'd have to see it used more.

I have no problem with force fields. What I have a problem with are spells that are spammed. In SC2 players made so many sentries to cast forcefields, and that's what annoyed me. It's sort of what annoys me about blink. No problem with the spell, I just hate seeing too many spells all the time. I think we can do without it for right now though, since I can't think of where to really put it. I think we could use the oracle unit model for some interesting things later, so maybe there.

On the topic of protoss, I'm not sure why the immortal is in. The way the immortal is right now, it seems like a boring unit. I'd say scrap it.


Recall is on the nexus thats why the arbiter doesn't have it. Also the immortal is in because otherwise its literally impossible to deal with terran mech.


Surely there is room to have both recalls if absolutely necessary, but I don't see why a nexus recall would be more useful than a arbiter one. Its extremely limiting. You can just keep an arbiter at home and use it to recall to your nexus if you really want to. Arbiter should get recall back.

I really don't see why immortal would be necessary. Mech doesn't seem much stronger than in BW and we have corsairs which can help by lifting tanks. If mech really is too hard to deal with, then fine, but the solution shouldn't be a unit that helps you A-move into them.
Kill the Deathball
scen
Profile Joined November 2011
Wales61 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 05:56:32
September 17 2012 05:55 GMT
#1604
On September 17 2012 11:42 SmileZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 10:44 scen wrote:
On September 17 2012 07:19 decemberscalm wrote:


Its not crazy abusable like it is in SC2 by simply not having as much of the spellcasters and sharing energy pool with the all important storm.



of course it is nothings changed except you need to make 1 extra high templar. Personally i would prefer guardian shield over forcefield.

Vortex is kinda crap in this because theres nothing to archon toilet. I think a spell that would be awesome would be something that affects a large area and after a delay destroys everything in that area(except buildings).


You just described Nukes, and hell they even hit buildings.


except it'd only cost energy and couldn't be cancelled by killing the aribtier.

Also Nexus recall is early game and arbiter is very late game.

On September 17 2012 12:30 pzea469 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 10:47 scen wrote:
On September 17 2012 09:39 pzea469 wrote:
I don't see why the arbiter doesn't have recall. Blink and warp prisms aren't a good excuse not to have it. They do completely different things. Warp in creates new units and they stay there. Prisms can help you warp at a location and carry a few units. So why is recall obsolete? Recall teleports a large portion of your existing army to the location of the Arbiter. Blink doesn't replace that, especially since it only works on 1 unit. Recalls were exciting to watch in BW, hallucinating arbiters to increase the chances of the real one getting a recall off right before dying. It should come back.

Stasis and Vortex are replaceable so I'm okay with that. Stasis was interesting because it made the units invincible, vortex does the same. It also lasted a good amount of time so you could stasis units on ramps and block them. Vortex can do the same I think. So I guess as long as vortex lasts long enough to act as a good ramp block, I'm good.

Benign seems a little weird to me. I guess it could be useful, but it just seems odd. I'd have to see it used more.

I have no problem with force fields. What I have a problem with are spells that are spammed. In SC2 players made so many sentries to cast forcefields, and that's what annoyed me. It's sort of what annoys me about blink. No problem with the spell, I just hate seeing too many spells all the time. I think we can do without it for right now though, since I can't think of where to really put it. I think we could use the oracle unit model for some interesting things later, so maybe there.

On the topic of protoss, I'm not sure why the immortal is in. The way the immortal is right now, it seems like a boring unit. I'd say scrap it.


Recall is on the nexus thats why the arbiter doesn't have it. Also the immortal is in because otherwise its literally impossible to deal with terran mech.


Surely there is room to have both recalls if absolutely necessary, but I don't see why a nexus recall would be more useful than a arbiter one. Its extremely limiting. You can just keep an arbiter at home and use it to recall to your nexus if you really want to. Arbiter should get recall back.

I really don't see why immortal would be necessary. Mech doesn't seem much stronger than in BW and we have corsairs which can help by lifting tanks. If mech really is too hard to deal with, then fine, but the solution shouldn't be a unit that helps you A-move into them.


Im guessing you havent played vs mech as protoss yet.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 07:29:46
September 17 2012 07:28 GMT
#1605
@decemberscalm Force Fields have great utility yes. They share the same energy pool as Storm which will make them be less spammed. Maybe players will use them to block ramps etc. Depends on the map too. If there are lots of small choke points it becomes more important. But its kinds like if the Vessel should have a 'Fungal Growth' - like spell. You cast Nerve Jammer or Irradiate on the enemy AND you stun them so they can´t micro away. Yes it would be good, but it will also prevent one of the fundamental micro aspects the opponent can use to minimize the damage from Irradiate, Psi storm etc. If Storm and FF are on two casters the player has to bring the two units together in combat and have a good ratio between them. Now High Templars can always lock the enemy army and storm them.

I am not saying I will remove Force Field as of yet. But I think this will be one of the things that later on breakes the game once players get more familiar with it.



@pzea469 What should you recall? Or rather, what targets do you have that would benefit from a large recall? All Gateway units can be warped in into the enemies base via a Warp Prism that costs 200 minerals and is mid-game. The Stalker, which is a main unit in the Protoss army, can Blink itself on top of tanks and into the enemy base. You can Blink in all Stalkers there if you wish. Something that was only possible in BW via Arbiter Recall. Why bother to tech to late game Arbiters when you have other ways to do a similar thing?

Furthermore, since Recall is on the Nexus, he can for example warp in 10 units in the enemy base on 1 Warp Prism and then just recall 8 of them back to his Nexus to avoid losing units. Overall I think that Recall on Nexus enables more harassment for Protoss than if Arbiters should have it in late game.

But I do advocate for adding a mini-recall that I described earlier. Simply because that lets you recall 1 unit at a time with good precision. Bring 1 Immortal, 1 carrier, 1 observer, 1 reaver etc. The key-units. If the spell is cheap and has no cooldown you can target many units at the same time, thus it can function like a larger recall too. I think that would give more utility to the Arbiter than if we gave it back mass recall.



I repost this so no one misses it. How can the line up of spells be improved for the Protoss casters?

+ Show Spoiler +
On September 17 2012 05:47 Kabel wrote:
Time for another discussion: The Protoss spell casters.

Its like the Ghost/Vessel issue for Terran. It works and I could leave it like it is. But I think there are some flaws for Protoss that can be adjusted to make it even better. I will explain how I mean. Protoss has 3 casters:

High Templars - Starts with Force Field. Can upgrade Psi Storm and Hallucination from SC2.

Dark Archon - Starts with Feedback that destroys a unit with energy, Maelstrom stuns biological units and Void Shell makes up to 5 units "benign" aka not auto-attacked by the enemy for 15 seconds.

Arbiter
- Cloaks units, Vortex from SC2 and Matrix. Matrix creates a sphere on the ground that slows enemy units and buildings time by 25% and increases the time for your units by 25%. (Attack speed, movement, regeneration etc)

[image loading]

So.. Whats the problem?


High Templars
can storm drop the enemy worker line by casting 2 Force Fields and then Storm. With the same unit. The opponent can´t do much to move his workers. I think this will cause some problems in other situations too. Furthermore, having Force Field on High Templars uses the key "F". New players often misscasts Force Fields on the enemy casters cause they are used to Feedback.
Third problem is that Hallucination is so much worse than Psi Storm. I have tried a couple of games lately where I research Hallucination and used the energy on it instead of Storm.. In theory it could be useful to absorb damage from Spider mines. But right now Protoss uses Immortals for that. (They take a maximum of 20 damage per attack instead of 10 as in SC2) The only good thing with Halucination is that you can get a unit to scout or to trick the opponent into thinking you have a tech-unit you actually don´t have. But overall, the spell is rather useless.



Dark Archons probably don´t have any problems. They see play sometimes and they are useful. Not sure if their line-up of spells is optimal though. They have Feedback as starting spell. That is good since the Dark Archons becomes more of a "protector" of the HT. Feedback the enemy Ghosts, Infestors, Vessels etc so they dont hurt your important HTs with storm.

Maelstrom is an old BW classic and its ok. Only useable versus Zerg though, but its the same thing with Irradiate. I have added a 3 second visual effect that indicates where the Maelstrom will impact, so the opponent can react. It has led to more fun micro scenarios than before, when the Maelstrom just happened. "Bang, half your army is stunned!"

Void Shell is rarely used but has led to both fun and annoying situations. It lets Zealots charge into heavy Siege contains without taking spider mines and tank fire. Unless the Terran pays attention. It also leads to some fun focus-fire scenarios. Overall the spell has potential. The worst scenario is that Protoss can in theory shield his entire army, A-move with it and the opponent can´t target fire so many units! He must just retreat or cast spells to stop the enemy.



Arbiter
- They dont have that feeling of usefulness as they had in BW. Recall was very important since it gave mobility to the otherwise rather slow Protoss army. Protoss today don´t have that problem. They can Blink, Warp in and have Warp Prismes with even more Warp in! I had Recall on Arbiters for a long time but it was not especially useful. I personally like Recall on Nexus now. Protoss rarely uses it, but sometimes players do creative things with it. It also enables Protoss to send out smaller groups of harassing units with the safety of recalling them back.

Matrix has seen play a few times and it has actually been fun to use. Do I place it to slow the enemy army in that area, or to boost my own Stalkers in this area?



I think that the spells for Protoss can be rearranged a bit to add more depth to the casters. I have some suggestions:

- Arbiter. Vortex and "Rift" (I gotta call it something ^^) Rift costs 50 energy, has no cooldown, and teleports 1 unit to the Arbiter. A mini-recall. You can use it to bring slow units to the Arbiter, like Immortals, Reavers, Carriers. Archons. Overall I think such an ability will be useful and see lot of uses and decisions.

- I personally think Matrix has potential. (Just need a better name) Increase and decrease "time" in an area is very versatile. You can use it in lots of different situations.. Use it on your Zealots while they engage enemy Zerglings/Ultras. (The effect is doubled, they get slow attack, your Zealots get faster attack) You can use them on Stalkers, Reavers and Immortals. The downside is that you are "stuck" in the matrix to get the bonus. So its a waste if you cast it in an area and moves away. In the same way, you can make areas bad for your opponent to be in which can force him away.

The spell has a good visual look and feels kinda Protoss. My suggestion is to make it a spell for High Templars. Since you usually have many HTs, the area of effect can be rather small. So each Matrix only effects 5-6 units and not 15, like the Arbiter Matrix does.

But I don´t know what to put as the starting spell for HTs. Warp into Archons, Storm, Matrix.. Maybe one more spell..

- A smaller version of Stasis Field from BW.. Effects 1 unit.. Lasts 60 seconds.. The unit can´t attack, move or take damage. Creates fun situations where units are "left" on the battlefield. Should you wait 1 minute with your army to kill just a few units when they are released? Also you can block ramps with high precision by Stasis your own Zealots one by one etc. The only downside is that it overlaps with Anti-gravity and Feedback as snipe spells.. Why get Corsairs to lift enemy siege tanks when you can instead "Stasis mini-field" them one by one.. Stasis field the enemy casters etc..

- Force Field.. Should it even be in the game? If so, which caster should it be on? Red Force Fields on Dark Archons.. O_o

- Hallucinations are fun since they can trick the opponent.. How can it be adjusted so it actually becomes useful?

- Should large stasis field replace Vortex for the Arbiter?




That was a lot of questions and suggestions at the same time. To sum it up:

- How can the line up of spells be improved for the Protoss casters?

Creator of Starbow
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
September 17 2012 09:06 GMT
#1606
I think the lineup is fine, the two things that I can see as issues are:

HT with forcefield:
reasons mentioned by others in the thread.

void shell:
I think it will break the game at some point, if you manage to get 4 dark archons (which is not impossible) then you can make 24 army units "invulnerable" for a good long while, 24 protoss units translate to at least 48 supply of army, and since the total supply rarely exceeds 150, 50 of those being workers (approx 3 bases) that means half of the protoss army will be invulnerable. I do not want to be the defender when fighting 48 supply of units that are not auto-attacked. that seems really scary. it seems even scarier when supported by another 50 supply of units that are auto-attacked, that would mean that I as a player need to identify which units are not auto-attacked in the middle of the chaos.
I like the spell and I think it should stay in the game, but it feels extremely powerful.
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
scen
Profile Joined November 2011
Wales61 Posts
September 17 2012 09:14 GMT
#1607
void shell units are not "invunrable". Dark archons are expensive and very late game. not to mention you have to research void shell. After a while of playing people would realise "oh hes got dark archons im probably going to have to target fire".

What did you think of my energy nuke that (doesn't effect buildings)?
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
September 17 2012 09:34 GMT
#1608
On September 17 2012 18:14 scen wrote:
void shell units are not "invunrable". Dark archons are expensive and very late game. not to mention you have to research void shell. After a while of playing people would realise "oh hes got dark archons im probably going to have to target fire".

What did you think of my energy nuke that (doesn't effect buildings)?

I think its interesting, as long as it hits allied units as well.
whether it should have a global warning like the nuke or not would be up for discussion. but if there is no warning than the range should be slightly shorter than a nukes in my opinion.
since a global warning = easier to dodge, if it does not have a global warning then it is hard to dodge a randomly-dropped such spell, thus it should be hard to use the spell to compensate, thus the range should be decreased.
but it might clash a little too much with nuke itself, and for that reason not fit the game. who knows.


what I meant by "invulnerable" was "effectively invulnerable" which would be achieved by simply having a ton of void-shelled units mixed with a ton of non-void-shelled units.
result: the defender sees his units attacking the enemy, but one in two is left alone and would require target-firing.
it just feels really hard to deal with, but I might be wrong. (particularly hard to deal with for a short-ranged army, a little easier for ranged armies I guess)
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
scen
Profile Joined November 2011
Wales61 Posts
September 17 2012 12:13 GMT
#1609
On September 17 2012 18:34 Roblin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 18:14 scen wrote:
void shell units are not "invunrable". Dark archons are expensive and very late game. not to mention you have to research void shell. After a while of playing people would realise "oh hes got dark archons im probably going to have to target fire".

What did you think of my energy nuke that (doesn't effect buildings)?

I think its interesting, as long as it hits allied units as well.
whether it should have a global warning like the nuke or not would be up for discussion. but if there is no warning than the range should be slightly shorter than a nukes in my opinion.
since a global warning = easier to dodge, if it does not have a global warning then it is hard to dodge a randomly-dropped such spell, thus it should be hard to use the spell to compensate, thus the range should be decreased.
but it might clash a little too much with nuke itself, and for that reason not fit the game. who knows.


what I meant by "invulnerable" was "effectively invulnerable" which would be achieved by simply having a ton of void-shelled units mixed with a ton of non-void-shelled units.
result: the defender sees his units attacking the enemy, but one in two is left alone and would require target-firing.
it just feels really hard to deal with, but I might be wrong. (particularly hard to deal with for a short-ranged army, a little easier for ranged armies I guess)


I think the ability would have to hit allied units too and i'd like it to have a warning. I was thinking it'd mainly be used for positioning.

it seems like it would be very hard, expensive and take a long time for the dark archons void shell to be that effective. Maybe it is overpowered but i think it's best to wait until its actually a problem.
scen
Profile Joined November 2011
Wales61 Posts
September 17 2012 12:25 GMT
#1610
On September 17 2012 21:13 scen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 18:34 Roblin wrote:
On September 17 2012 18:14 scen wrote:
void shell units are not "invunrable". Dark archons are expensive and very late game. not to mention you have to research void shell. After a while of playing people would realise "oh hes got dark archons im probably going to have to target fire".

What did you think of my energy nuke that (doesn't effect buildings)?

I think its interesting, as long as it hits allied units as well.
whether it should have a global warning like the nuke or not would be up for discussion. but if there is no warning than the range should be slightly shorter than a nukes in my opinion.
since a global warning = easier to dodge, if it does not have a global warning then it is hard to dodge a randomly-dropped such spell, thus it should be hard to use the spell to compensate, thus the range should be decreased.
but it might clash a little too much with nuke itself, and for that reason not fit the game. who knows.


what I meant by "invulnerable" was "effectively invulnerable" which would be achieved by simply having a ton of void-shelled units mixed with a ton of non-void-shelled units.
result: the defender sees his units attacking the enemy, but one in two is left alone and would require target-firing.
it just feels really hard to deal with, but I might be wrong. (particularly hard to deal with for a short-ranged army, a little easier for ranged armies I guess)


I think the ability would have to hit allied units too and i'd like it to have a warning. I was thinking it'd mainly be used for breaking up the enemies positioning.

it seems like it would be very hard, expensive and take a long time for the dark archons void shell to be that effective. Maybe it is overpowered but i think it's best to wait until its actually a problem.

Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
September 17 2012 14:01 GMT
#1611
--- Nuked ---
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 15:35:55
September 17 2012 15:09 GMT
#1612
I will try to rearrange the Protoss line up of spells like this:


Dark Archon
- It remains as it is.

Arbiter
- Vortex and a mini-recall that teleports 1 unit to the Arbiter. Has no cooldown and costs 50 energy. So you can use up to 4 at the same time.

High Templar
- It will remain with FF as the starting spell for now. HT can upgrade Storm and Matrix. Matrix is the Arbiter spell that slows "time" for enemy units and increases time for friendly units in a small area. I think it will be more useful than Hallucination and actually be better in certain situations compared to Storm. And having a couple of good spells on a caster is more fun than having a really strong one and another one that is almost always useless.

Details of and picture of the Matrix spell.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Since Matrix is on the HT I will lower the AoE a bit so it only covers maybe 5-6 units. It will slow enemy ground units movement and attack by 25% and increase your ground units attack and movement by 25%. It lasts 30 seconds and costs 100 energy. Note that you must stand in the area to gain the bonus.



I will start working on this now but it will take some hours before its complete. If anyone think this is a horrible line up of spells, please continue the discussion. I atleast think that this small change will add more options to the Protoss spellcasters than before. But I´ve been wrong before!

- What can be a better name for "Matrix?"
- What can be a good name for a mini-recall? "Rift?" (For some reason I associate that word with teleportation.. )

And for those who think that I change things to rapidly:

+ Show Spoiler +
First of all, this is not a huge change and it will not effect anything major with the balance in the game. I move a spell from the Arbiter and add it to the High Templar to replace Hallucination. I give Arbiter a mini-recall. Thats it. Why?

- Hallucination is for the most part really useless. Even the BW-Hallucination was not good. Maybe vs Spider Mines, but Immortals and Void Shell fixes that now.

- HT gains a spell that might be a realistic option to cast in certain situations instead of Storm. With FF, Storm and Matrix the HT can be used in more creative ways than just being walking storm-machines. (And it will most likely still be used primarily for Storm, but atleast it has potentially good options to use)

- The Arbiter gains a spell that is more true to its orginial concept: recall. It is unique in its own way now and will probably not overlap with the Nexus Recall, since you will often target completely different units.
Creator of Starbow
pzea469
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1520 Posts
September 17 2012 15:57 GMT
#1613
On September 17 2012 16:28 Kabel wrote:
@pzea469 What should you recall? Or rather, what targets do you have that would benefit from a large recall? All Gateway units can be warped in into the enemies base via a Warp Prism that costs 200 minerals and is mid-game. The Stalker, which is a main unit in the Protoss army, can Blink itself on top of tanks and into the enemy base. You can Blink in all Stalkers there if you wish. Something that was only possible in BW via Arbiter Recall. Why bother to tech to late game Arbiters when you have other ways to do a similar thing?

Furthermore, since Recall is on the Nexus, he can for example warp in 10 units in the enemy base on 1 Warp Prism and then just recall 8 of them back to his Nexus to avoid losing units. Overall I think that Recall on Nexus enables more harassment for Protoss than if Arbiters should have it in late game.


An entire existing army would benefit from a large recall.
Warp in can only give you so much. And those units are created, so it's not any existing units. Plus you cant warp-in in someones face because your units will just get killed as they warp in. Its a big difference. With the arbiter you can bunch up your existing army, zealots, stalkers, HTs with energy, and recall them into an enemy base. Then with another arbiter you can recall them back. This gives the most options. Blinking into the enemy base with just stalkers isn't the same. Not only does it limit you to 1 type of unit without zealots to tank damage, but it also means that an army of stalkers would have to travel towards the enemy base which is a lot easier to detect than 1 flying unit. Nexus recall has very limited options. The arbiter recall can do what the nexus recall does and a lot more. I'm not saying there isn't room for both though. Nexus recall can help you harrass early, and Arbiter can do the big recalling late game.



This would be completely impossible without arbiter recall.
Kill the Deathball
hipo
Profile Joined November 2010
France482 Posts
September 17 2012 17:43 GMT
#1614
In my opinion, it is not a good idea to give High Templar Force Field, Storm and Matrix. Those 3 spells have a different effect but they have the same purpose: controlling an area. Force Field allow to stop the movement of ground units, Storm force ennemies unit to move out of an area (to avoid being damaged) and it is the same for Matrix (but to avoid being slowed). Templar shall obviously keep Storm, but in addition to it, they shall have spells that have a different purpose like some kind of snipe ability (for example, feedback) or a defensive ability (like hallucination). By the way, I think that 2 spells are enought for them since they can be morphed into an Archon.

Concerning Arbiter, mass recall is, in my opinion, their signature spell, so they must keep it even if Nexus keep their ability to recall a few units. Nexus recall is usefull in early/mid game whereas Arbiter's recall is only usefull in late game, so they doesnt overlap each other. Vortex in it current stat is a very good replacement for Stasis Field so I'm fine with it.

Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 18:38:22
September 17 2012 18:37 GMT
#1615
Good point.

High Templar would indeed survive with only 2 spells and Warp into Archon. A third one is just to add even more versatility. But its not necessary. Anyways, you are right that all three functions like Area control spells. Although I think that Matrix and Storm are very different in their execution. You will cast Storm on the enemy to make an area really dangerous for a short time. Matrix on the other hand is a spell that lasts longer but does not have a sudden impact as storm. I consider Matrix a spell that players cast on their own units rather than on the enemy.

Lets look at some situations where Matrix might be useful:

- To boost your Zealots/Archons/DTs in melee combat vs enemy melee units. Especially good vs Ultralisks and Archons since Storm don´t kill them so easily.
- If you want to tear down enemy buildings quicker, casting Matrix on your units inreases their damage per second.
- If Zerglings are up and chewing on your Stalkers Psi Storm will hurt your own units. Matrix on the other hand give your units a boost and might save them.
- Cast Matrix on top of your Reavers will make them even more deadly.

It also requires that you use them in optimal situations so you benefit from them. Matrix itself does nothing. But it enables a player to use his units a bit more efficent with clewer play. I think a skilled player can do some nice things with it.

I do however agree with Force Field. Having FF, Matrix and Storm really is a lot of area control spells on one unit.

If I give it back Feedback, the Dark Archon will lack a spell. Besides, Feedback is the classic Dark Archon spell, although SC2 players are more familiar with it being on the HT. If Halluciniation is the starting spell, it might be used.. No one will almost never upgrade Hallucination to actually use it, unless I give it a huge buff.

Hmm... This is a tricky puzzle ^^

Creator of Starbow
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
September 17 2012 20:02 GMT
#1616
Remove FF from HT's leaving them with 2 spells (storm is so powerful that this is enough). Its not that FF is a bad spell, it just has too much synergy with storm.
If FF is to remain, why not on Dark Archons? It kinda fits their theme better than Templars anyways.
Possibly remove Void Shell, if it is as powerful as it seems - or move it to Arbiters.
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
SmileZerg
Profile Joined March 2012
United States543 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 20:42:52
September 17 2012 20:02 GMT
#1617
Some scattered thoughts at first glance:

I really like the Matrix spell. It's reminiscent of an ability I designed for the Sentry on my own time that I had intended to replace Force Field, which would slow enemies moving through it (as well as attack speed, regen, cooldowns etc.) rather than just blocking locations off. I called it Chrono Lapse Field.

The double-sided versatility of your Matrix spell is even more appealing though, with the option to speed up your own units instead! (Or even simultaneously in the case of short ranged combats.) As it is a time twisting mechanic I would absolutely name it something like Chrono Matrix or Chrono Distortion Field.

Now, with this spell in the game, I see no use for Force Field. FF removes micro from the opposing player and leads to uninteresting game situations in SC2 while being extremely easy to use (WOW HE CLICKED F RIGHT ON THAT RAMP AND LOCKED THE ZERG ARMY OUT OF HIS BASE. WHAT SKILL.) There's enough area control spells available to Protoss and enough problems it causes (F for Feedback confusing SC2 players) to just cut it in my opinion.

I'm not sure I would put the Matrix spell on the High Templar though. Generally, Protoss spell casters that manipulate space or time seem to be the mechanical ones (Arbiter with Stasis/Vortex/Rift, Nexus Chrono Boost) while the casters like High Temps or DA's affect perception (Hallucination, Mind Control) or channel psychic energy to cause damage (Feedback, Storm). Also, two space controlling spells on HTs feels like it may overlap just enough to lack a certain elegance of design, though they would also fit together thematically.

Next, on the subject of Dark Archons.. these are a unit a tend to think of as a sinister, offensive caster, and one which is accustomed to functioning on its own rather than in support of other units. This fits the lore of the Dark Templar - exiled nomadic outcasts who have learned to use void powers to fend for themselves. In BW, the spell repertoire really meshed with this theme. Feedback could neutralize or kill enemy casters, Maelstrom could trap pursuers and Mind Control was not only an effective snipe spell but it also added numbers to the DA's side.

I think we should restore this philosophy. I've got some spell ideas but I have to go for the moment, I'll post again later tonight.
"Show me your teeth."
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 20:43:49
September 17 2012 20:27 GMT
#1618
I consider to remove FF since I dont have a unit it would fit on. (Especially if Matrix stays on the HT) Maybe the Dark archon.. But still it would feel a little phony if a powerful red angry psionic being spawns small shields on the field.. Void Shell is indeed a spell that I both like and fear. As Roblin pointed out, it might cause huge problems. But it can also create fun micro scenarios..

When I created Matrix I gave it to the Arbiter since I always considered it a unit that manipulates the fabrics of space. If HT gets it, maybe I can rename it so it makes thematic sence? Its not a field that messes with the time.. but rather.. the perception of living and mechanical beings..? or psyonic energy that messes them up.. or something.. ^^

I think that Arbiter will be more true to its nature with a Recall-type-of-spell on it. Thats why I want to move Matrix from it. I plan to create "Rift" which can be used with greater perception than mass recall. You can teleport key units but also a bunch of units since it will have no cooldown. Maybe cost 40 energy. If I give it back mass-recall and still keeps it on the Nexus, as hipo suggested above, it will look a bit ugly in design. Having two identical spells on two different units does not feel right. By twisting the Arbiter recall a bit I think it will be played and useful in an other way compared to mass-recall on Nexus.

@pzea469 Yea that pimpest play is awesome and it can´t be done without mass recall on the Arbiter or Hallucination.. But I think there are other possibilities for pimpest plays. Or atleast I will try to create abilities/units that has a high pimpest-play-potential. PPP. Hallucination has a high PPP but a low UUU value (Utterly Useful Utility) ^^
Most of the times Hallucination will never be used, than all of a sudden, at rare occasions, some random dude makes an awesome move with it.

I will go and sleep now, but please continue to dig deeper into this matter. Suggestions and different points of view are always welcome.

Ps. Nerve Jammer is indeed a name that does not make sense either since it both messes with living and mechanical things. But I still like the name. Its a cocky name with a punch in it. Kinda fits the vocabulary of the marines..
- "We gonna Nerve jam them to hell!"
- "Nerve em up boys!"
- "You got Nerves to Jam with my jam?" :p
Creator of Starbow
hipo
Profile Joined November 2010
France482 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 20:40:08
September 17 2012 20:36 GMT
#1619
Then, why not give this single-target version of Recall to the Nexus an give the mass recall to the Arbiter? it make more sense to have spells that affect a lot of unit in the late game.

Edit: If you give Matrix to HT, you can call it Psi-Distruption or something like that.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 20:54:04
September 17 2012 20:43 GMT
#1620
I considered doing that. But I think that will lead to huge frustration.

With the mass-recall on Nexus you have 1 lifeboat with plenty of room. But once it sails its gone for a long time... So use it wisely.

With mini-recall on Nexus you have an individual saving angel for each and every unit. Save a unit there, and there, and there.. and there.. and there.. Unless I give it a 25 energy cost... So if you want to save units you waste energy that could be used for Chrono boost... Hmmmmm.... But if there are 3-5 Nexuses in play.. That would be a lot of saved key-units... Drop HT, storm the workers and then just teleport it and maybe the Warp prism home again...


@Dark Archon Mind control was a nice spell, but since neural parasite is in the game it would not feel as unique to give it back mind Control. Even though I agree on the thematic feeling of the Dark Archon. Obviously game plays goes first rather than the lore. But the best thing is when they go hand in hand...
Creator of Starbow
Prev 1 79 80 81 82 83 537 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Platinum Heroes Events
13:00
PSC2L Finals - Playoffs
NightMare vs JumyLIVE!
Krystianer vs Creator
Shameless vs Gerald
RotterdaM879
Liquipedia
OSC
13:00
World Championship: Challenger
WardiTV769
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 863
Lowko439
BRAT_OK 77
RushiSC 30
MindelVK 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 1897
Jaedong 1455
EffOrt 1330
Mini 717
Shuttle 631
Larva 587
Soma 566
Stork 530
ggaemo 479
Hyuk 417
[ Show more ]
actioN 357
Light 325
Hyun 280
ZerO 277
Barracks 267
Snow 223
firebathero 192
Rush 153
Sharp 150
hero 73
JYJ 54
Killer 42
Sea.KH 42
Mong 35
Terrorterran 31
yabsab 24
Rock 21
soO 19
HiyA 17
zelot 15
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
Shine 14
scan(afreeca) 13
GoRush 11
Sacsri 10
Dota 2
qojqva3962
singsing2190
League of Legends
C9.Mang0471
Counter-Strike
zeus257
Other Games
Grubby3271
Gorgc2229
B2W.Neo759
hiko463
Pyrionflax314
Fuzer 276
Hui .258
ArmadaUGS61
QueenE49
ZerO(Twitch)24
crisheroes2
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 20
• HeavenSC 15
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV650
• lizZardDota241
League of Legends
• Jankos2794
Upcoming Events
Korean StarCraft League
11h 54m
OSC
20h 54m
IPSL
22h 54m
Dewalt vs Bonyth
OSC
1d 2h
OSC
1d 20h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
Patches Events
3 days
OSC
3 days
OSC
4 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

C-Race Season 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
Escore Tournament S1: W2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W3
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.