EPT[A] Starbow - Page 79
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I adjust things that lacks in the game, like the economy did earlier. You even said that the economy now is better than the old one! So I should not improved it? What do you want me to do? Dont give a shit about working on it and let players figure a half-made MOD out? We have a player base of ca 10 players on EU and its no secret that this is under development and far from finished. Everyone is free to join the discussion here and come with their thoughts. I always tell that to new players on EU. And I use many players ideas in this MOD. Besides, I rarely change stats of units. So the core balance is still the same as its been for a while. I think this MOD is going into the right direction. Its more playable, better balanced and more enjoyable now than 1 or 2 months ago. I think things are steadyily improving. And its not that I start to change things without a reason, like you seem to think. But if I see areas in the MOD that lacks I want to take care of it. Not every unit can be core. But everyone unit shall be useful. And I think that the BW Ghost lacks in usefulnes. So go ahead, give me suggestions on how to improve it instead of saying that people should figure it out. That kinda kills the whole discussion. Besides, you often tell me how stats etc should be for units when we find that they lack in areas. And I listen and consider. Imagine if all ideas were shut down? "No Danko, let players figure it out instead." Like when we found out that Zerg could win with all in baneling early vs Protoss without they could do anything to stop it since they have no early force fields. Maybe Protoss players would have figured out how to stop it. But if the risk of losing to an early baneling bust is VERY high, is that something that makes the game better and more fun, especially for Protoss players? I think not. So I increased the Baneling nest cost and made it have a longer build time. When obvious design flaws are in the game, why not try to do anything about it? Edit: And as always, if things don´t work out with the EMP thing I change it back. Edit 2: Just to clearify, I dont mind that people critize the changes I make. Its healthy and important for the development. So please do that. But come with arguments and reasons, like SmileZerg has done in this discussion. He indeed has some good points and he gave me a new perspective on the matter. Even though he has not convinced me yet. I will go now and I´ll back late at night. Hopefully there are some more quality posts regarding the Ghost/Science Vessel to read. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
I only want to say: Dont change so many things at once. I do belive some things are fine already, just people dont know about that yet. Encourage people somehow but dont change things like fine designed SVs. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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bole
Serbia164 Posts
You ask from some suggestions so i will share with you.. If this is game where we merge SC2 abilities and BW i think the economy should be diferent (buffed) then BWs to be able to use more abilities from SC2 universe..This is first suggestion that i made.. Second is about units that can come in to shake up gameplay.. and they are SENTRY , RAVEN, NYDUS WORM..Ghoust change is made that is EMP... Sentry : t1 caster made from gateway. Abilities : guardian shild (like in sc2) but 50 energy , Hallucinations,(Upgrade 50min 50gas maby more..) , Feedback 75 energy,(can drain 100 eng 100 life or sc2 version), Energy Up for Sentry 100 min 100 gas or 100 min 50 gas...That is for Snetry.  Unit will be useful early game mid game maby hallucinations late game it would be cool unit and useful through the game..Raven : t3 caster like old one in SC2..to replace Science Vessel.. but insted of PDD to have Nerve jammer or buff PDD more energy or something..auto turret same as SC2 and HSM to get buff like 100 eng insted 125...this is just a suggestion..everything should be just for testing... Problem with terran is they feel mostly like bw terran they don't have any change in this mode..so i thought shake things up a little..Raven is good as AA and useful on the ground so that unite could change terran little more forward to SC2 terran.. Zerg have everything i think..so end game mechanics like Nydus Warm would be good for the game as (game ender mechanic T3 staff or T2) they have t1 caster queen t2 infestors t3 swarm guardian...on caster side they are complete also.. My opinion on this game that it have great future and should and it will replace SC2 that blizzard is made and Ppl Like Dustin Browder that dont have clue what E sport is...Simply look at Collossus A move unit that cant be microed and always die from vikings no matter what you are doing to save them ...Also dynamic pathing isn't E sport friendly simply you can't see what is going on there most of the time... Thx for made this mode i hope i helped a little with my ideas to shake up a gameplay a little.This game Rocks )) | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
On the topic of changing it frequently due to it being early in development, I'd like to chime in here. It's ok to change things frequently, but whatever you do, don't sacrifice well-designed units for the sake of making it balanced. If the tools are there, people will figure out a way to use them. Especially make sure to have units that have high potential skill ceilings; things like marines and siege tanks are good because you can almost always do a better job of microing marines or positioning tanks. As long as you give players things they can use to outplay the opponent, balance will come eventually. | ||
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Zain3
Sweden45 Posts
its saturday night... stop enjoying yourself outside! go home and play some starbow! | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
http://xkcd.com/915/ given enough time, anyone will find depth in anything. this is in my opinion the main reason why broodwar is considered as balanced as it is, not because it is, but because people have dug deep enough to make it hard to compare. there have been times when terran was considered overpowered, there have been times when zerg was considered overpowered, there have been times when protoss was considered overpowered, in the latest era terran have had the highest representation in major tournaments. and yet no balance changes have been made to the game during these events. personally I am convinced that broodwar is imbalanced, but in favor of whom I cannot tell. thus for all points and purposes it is regarded as balanced. because of the same reason I am convinced that there are an infinite amount of possible "ending balances" for starbow where the game, given enough hours played, will be considered perfectly balanced. not because it is, but because it can't be well compared. a good metaphor would be the following: you have a beach. you choose three spots on the beach (the three races) three people starts digging simoultaneously at each spot (1 person represents the playerbase for that race, the act of digging represents studying and practicing that race's playstyle) eventually all of them have dug so far down that neither can see any of the other two, and once that happens it is impossible to tell if you have dug further than the others. all of them climb up and say to the others "my hole is deepest" (translation: I have practiced most/I am the most skilled) after arguing themselves hoarse they decide to scientifically find out who dug the deepest hole. but they find their measuring equipment insufficient for the task (there is no standardized method to measuring difficulty) so they decide to introduce a fourth digger which will cover up the previous holes and then re-dig them all by himself (random players play all races and should have a better overview of which requires more practice aka is harder aka is generally weakest) he finds hole number 1 to be easy to dig very deep, but after a while he hits a big rock and can't keep digging (the race is easy to play but have a skill-ceiling) he finds hole number 2 to be riddled with roots from nearby trees, which makes the dirt very difficult and tiresome to dig, and after hours of digging he stops for the sake of checking the third hole. (hard to learn, virtually unreachable skillceiling) the third hole is easy to dig at times, but have pockets of mud that take a lot of time to get rid of. (this race is sensitive to the metagame of the other races, and needs adjustments to the strategy in different skill-levels) after having dug at all three locations he comes back and says "I can't tell, the digging was in too different conditions" so they had more random diggers come and dig, as it turns out, some say "hole 1 was deepest, the others couldn't match the speed at which I dug there", some say "hole 2 was deepest, I kept going deeper and deeper all the time with minor problems" and others say "hole 3 is deepest, it digs fast most of the time and has no bottom" which hole was in reality deepest? we will never know. once obvious imbalances are removed it gets extremely tough to measure balance, and as a result of this there is a huge array of possible balances which will be indistiguishable in difficulty balance. for that reason the game can be designed in pretty much any way that would seem to work out. and for that reason I advocate that kabel should do what he wants to do. and nothing else. also, I fully support the notion of making as many units as well used as possible, though that goal is almost unachieveable unless there is only 1 way to play, which would include all units. I am also convinced that if starbows development was halted here and now then it would eventually, assuming it is played a lot, be considered a rival to broodwar in tactics, strategy and skill. //Roblin | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Holy shit sir that was an incredible post. My hat is off to you. All I want to say is that, while balance is an important factor to consider and will most likely eventually be achieved through the metagame's development as you have said, I don't think it's the main concern until the design is rounded out to make the Mod as deep and as fun as possible. I agree that we're already extremely well off - Kabel is an amazing designer and we COULD stop here and have a game that could eventually reach Brood War levels of depth and competitive quality. But that doesn't mean it still can't be further improved of course. So I personally am in favor of constantly testing changes until we have something that feels the most fun to play! @ Kabel I've put more consideration into the EMP issue after reading your responses and have some final thoughts. I do in fact think the benefits of EMP on Ghosts outway the drawbacks IF the following conditions were met (these are of course just my opinions): 1) I would not REPLACE Lockdown on the Ghost - simply adding EMP as an additional, researchable ability should suffice. While this may seem to clutter the Ghost's repertoire with too many abilities, I wouldn't consider Cloak and Tactical Nuke to be actual Ghost spells in the same manner, since one is simply a protective ability that is part of the units identity, and the other costs resources and no energy. It would be comparable to how High Templars now have three energy spells up from the two in SC2, and still retain Archon Morph. With Lockdown still available, this lets the Ghost keep its identity as a single-target sniper with some added flavor. 2) I would NOT under any circumstances fill the new slot on the Science Vessel with Auto-Turret, or any engineering themed ability whatsoever. It should be something more appropriate to the SciVessel - a physics themed effect with no deployed equipment involved. This is a topic of discussion for later of course. 3) I would, not to sound like a broken record here, still buff Snipe. It is rather similar to Irradiate in a lot of respects, as a single target bio killing spell. Increasing the damage to 50 (60 vs Light so Ghosts can still one-shot SCVs) with a half damage reduction against Massive is a start, since the higher front loaded damage would allow Ghosts to take out more weak units at a faster rate with less energy expenditure, relegating the main benefit of Irradiate to the potential splash damage, giving each spell a different ideal scenario to be cast in. The reason I came around to EMP as a Ghost spell, in the end, is the fact that it can be used as a mildly skill-intensive 'soft detection' versus cloaked units, an aspect of the spell entirely lost when it was cast by a unit that was already a detector. I have a couple more ideas for the Ghost as well, but I will reserve them for until after we've gotten some feedback on the new version. It may not need any additional modification. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Spider Mine unit: Movement speed 9, movement acceleration 4. Spider Mine unburrow ability: Range 4. Spider Mine Invulnerable behavior, modifcation+: Benign. Will do a video to show it off. But those are the stats if you wanna check them out. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I have to admit I did a huge misstake in this. I jumped to my conclusions too fast. I identified a problem: The Science Vessel is the only caster Terran needs. It's set-up of spells cover so many areas. And the Ghost seemed unncessary. I thought that a simple and ultimate solution would be to give it back EMP. But I should have brought the topic to discussion here first, because there are other approaches on how to fix the Ghost: give them a huge cost nerf, stronger snipe, much better lockdown, damage, range etc. There are many factors to adjust, as many of you have suggested that could have been tried first. Another problem is that the Vessel lacks a spell now. It´s awesome that many of you care about this MOD as much as you do. You take your time to analyze, write posts and play this. And you don´t want it to be screwed up! If people did not care about this I would not have continued so far. So in the future I will throw out more problems for discussion so as many perspectives as possible can be shed on it. --- Anyways, lets continue with the Ghost/Science Vessel topic. I want to create a good foundation in the game, where each unit and spell is useful in its own way. I try to avoid having "joke-units" in the game, like the BW Scout. A unit that was so bad it was considered a joke to build it. Or units players used to give a show for the audience, like Infest Command centers. Two approaches to the Ghost: SmileZerg suggests that Ghosts can have Lockdown, EMP, stronger Snipe, Cloak and Nuke. If so, it will become a very useful unit in many situations! It will be versatile and a threat on its own. Players will gladly invest in Ghost tech to unlock this powerful unit. It will become an important and unique Terran spellcaster, alongside with Vessels. Exactly what I try to archieve. Another approach can be to make them cheaper and just buff their stats and spells. They have Lockdown, Snipe, Cloak and Nuke as before. To disable a unit for 30 seconds is not as good as destroying it completely. For example if players might aswell build 4 Goliaths instead of spending resoureces to tech to Ghosts and upgrade Lockdown to fight the enemy carriers, players will prefer the Goliaths. A dead enemy unit do not cause problems.. I think that Ghosts gotta be really cheap or lockdown very strong if it shall be worthwile for players to use Lockdown on units like Siege tanks, Immortals, Void Rays etc. This solution would give back EMP to Vessels and save us from a headache when we try to come up with a new Vessel spell. Furthermore, lets look at the Vessel. Even if it had no spells people would still build it since its a detector. And I agree Danko, we should not necessarily reduce the Vessel in strength and versatility just to buff the Ghost. The best thing would be if both units were really good and useful in their own ways. So what can a new possible Vessel spell be? A spell can be completely different if we play with some of the variables of it. Take the Auto-turret for example. If it lasts really short and deals huge damage it will be used in a certain way, compared to if it is weak and lasts forever. Furthermore, a racial unique feature for Terran is that they have spells/abilities with a limited number of uses. Medics can use 1 Shield and Vultures can use 3 Spider Mines. - Auto Turret. They have same stats as in SC2 and are permanent. Each Vessel only has 4. Each costs 75 energy to deploy. Do you want to let the Vessel die without them all being deployed? Or you rather use the energy for the more powerful Nerve Jammer and Irradiate? It might also be good synergy with Energize for Medics. You want to Energize your Vessel to "release" the Auto-Turrets faster. - Hunter seeker missile. Irradiate is already a damage dealer. But Hunter seeker can do something else upon impact.. Here are all factors for units I can think of on top of my head: Life Energy Regeneration Armor Attack damage Attack speed Attack range Movement Cooldown on abilities Vision Cost EMP and Energize for Medics already effects energy. Irradiate, Snipe, Yamato gun and Heal effects life. Nerve Jammer effects enemy units ability to attack. Lockdown effects movement speed. Scan effects vision. A possible area for Hunter seeker missile would be to increase damage taken by a bunch of enemy units. The scientific "explanation" would be that all Terran weapons adjust their system to auto-lock on each enemy that has the buff on it.. The enemy can split his units to avoid getting hit by the Hunter seeker. Also he can choose to retreat from a combat if he gets hit by it.. and return to fight once the buff runs out of time.. To avoid the spell being spammed in every combat we can set a limit of 2 or 4 to each Vessel. Another important question is: Shall the Vessel spell be positive or negative? Heal, Energize, Shield for Mecics, Stimpack. Cloak and Nerve Jammer are spells that can be used in a positive way to protect or buff your units. An area would be to increase the attack range. Either by adding a direct buff to a unit or by creating a small gadget on the ground that is permanent. All ranged units near it gain +3 attack range. If the enemy stands near it they get the bonus too.. If its "benign" it will not be auto-attacked. Which means that the enemy can let one live to benefit from the bonus from it. And once again it can be a limit per 2 per Vessel. So place them carefully. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bhjhE.jpg) (Yeah I know SmileZerg, all of these thoughts are just gadgets : / ) I have remade the old Vessel spell Defence-Matrix to fit on the Medic. The reason for that is to give Medics a broader use. It gives some interactions with other units too. Protect tanks, dropships or a firebat for 15 seconds. The enemy can attack to make Medics waste their shields, retreat and attack soon again. One thing might be to give back D-Matrix to Vessels again as the starting spell... Hm.. Yeah this would probably be the best and most familiar line up of spells for the Ghost, Vessel and Medic. Ghost - EMP, Lockdown, Snipe, Cloak and Nuke. Vessel - Defence Matrix, Nerve Jammer and Irradiate. Medic - Starts with Heal. Can upgrade Energize, just like before. The Shield ability on Medic is simply renamed and returned to its real owner. Medics will still be useful for healing. As an extra touch you can replenish energy too, which gives some interactions with the two strong casters Ghosts and Vessels. You might also use them on BCs and Wraiths. In 2v2 it gets even broader use. Energize has been in the game for weeks but has rarely been used. 2 energy per second is drained from the Medic to give 1 energy to a caster. Each Medic has only 100 energy. What do you all think? Ps. @decemberscalm I cant try the spider mines myself for some hours now. So please upload a video. Its more fun to watch too | ||
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D2HLC
Cook Islands22 Posts
It is very refreshing seeing a new composition of units and I hope this mod keeps gaining popularity and breaks into the competitive scene. Starcraft 2 doesn't really have any competition in the RTS world and although I love it, I wouldn't mind playing something else for a change. CoH was great, but had bad network coding and is kind of dead I think. CnC 3 sucked balls cause EA ruined it. We need some alternative. Anyway, keep up the good work and don't let the negativity get to you Kabel. You're doing an awsome job! | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Laertes The Medic is at its core a useful unit. It heals your infantery which increases their durability. Especially good in combination with Stim pack. The reason I gave it Shield and Energize was to broaden its use and make it have a less narrow purpose. And there was no slots for D-matrix at the Vessel, since it had Nerve Jammer, EMP and Irradiate, and I still wanted to have the D-matrix in the game in some way. If D-matrix goes back to the Vessel, the Medic will still be built and useful. I am thinking on how the stats for D-matrix shall be to fit into Starbow.. Complete invulnerability? That kinda sucks if 20 banelings roll into 1 marine without killing it.. :p And I won´t touch Energize. It has potential to be good. We just need to see more players use it before I do anything about it. Who knows, maybe its really strong but no one knows ^^ | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Simple, clean, effective and makes sure that the spell is rewarded with using it on the right target (low health targets gets less direct benefit, but more indirect benefit) | ||
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