On September 12 2012 04:35 SmileZerg wrote: Wouldn't it be better to just go with PDD in the first place though? It loses the ability to affect certain units but it makes more sense, and weaknesses can actually add more strategic depth - for example, if you can't attack into PDD with hydras, use ling/baneling instead. Different options and all that.
PDD can last longer than nerve jammer without being overpowered thanks to its energy requirements too. Fits better into the idea of holding space/area control.
I think Nerve Jammer single handedly makes TvT better. It allows players to break siege lines without the need of the warhammer, and also forces TvT's to spread out their tanks instead of balling them and seiging the instant they see the opposing army.
First of all, it lasts 12 seconds and makes all enemy ground units within the circle unable to attack. (Even burrowed units) They can still move and use abilities. The Nerve Jammer itself is not auto-attacked, but the enemy can choose to target fire it. It has low HP. (Note that units inside the area of effect, aka the visible circle, can not attack the Nerve Jammer. Units outside can.)
The reason I added it is because I think it can be useful in more situations than PDD can. First of all, the exact location you place it in is important, since its easy for the enemy to move out of the circle. I often cast Nerve Jammers on bad positions, but some players seem to use it well. With Nerve jammer you can:
Cast it on your siege tanks to gain a "circle of protection" that makes melee units unable to damage them. Cast it on your marines to protect vs Banelings. Cast it on the enemy Lurkers to force them to reposition. Cast it as a respons on your tanks when a clump of enemy Stalkers Blink on top of them. Cast it in a Dark Swarm to buy some time. Cast it when pushing up a ramp, if enemy units are guarding on top. Cast it on the ramp when the enemy pushes up to engage your units at the top. Cast it on enemy siege tanks, thus forcing them to repostion, which gives a window of time for your army to advance. (As decemberscalm states above)
Overall I think it adds depth to combats. It forces a reposition, just like Dark Swarm does. It also forces the enemy to split his units, otherwise many get effected inside the Nerve Jammer. It gives your army a small window of breathing time, where you shut down a portion of the enemy army. The effect from the Nerve Jammer has can also be nullified if the opponent pays attention and moves out immediately, which I think enchanes micro even more.
I do agree that it can be a confusing spell. And that is very important! It must be obvious and visible for all players that their units are under the effect of it. Just as Dark Swarm is visible in the area it effects. Units within the circle are effected. Here is how it looks for me in the editor: (I play on lowest settings)
Here is an example of the Nerve Jammer in action. I think it looks kinda visible.
But if someone experience that it is not clear enough, I will try to improve it. I agree that Nerve Jammer does not make complete sense in terms of being realistic. What kind of contraption is that that forces enemy weapons and claws to fail, while enginges and feets still functions? :p
I just felt it would be too strong if it slowed the enemy units too. I have considered making it effect ALL units within its area too, but if so, it will make you unable to protect your own units. From the games Ive seen and played, Nerve Jammer seems to have had a good effect on the gameplay. Players use it often and it tends to lead to fun micro scenarios. A smaller force can with a proper Nerve Jammer win a fight vs a stronger enemy. I like when such effects are possible in the game.
PDD is an ok spell, and I used it in the MOD for a long time. But I was not satisfied with it, for various reasons.
Hmm, that's the one matchup I didn't consider... and yet no such ability existed in BW, how was it dealt with then?
Actually, Nerve Jammer is just a rip-off from Disruption Web. Corsairs had it, but it was rarely used. It worked a bit different though; it shut down ALL units and turrets/cannons/etc in an area for ca 1 minute. (Including your units) In theory you could use it on enemy siege tanks, but since Corsairs were completely useless in PvT, besides casting Drisruption Web, players rarely built them. Better to spend the money on carriers or something else. In TvT Lockdown was rarely used on Siege tanks. You basically had loads of factory units, (especially siege tanks) dropships and sometimes Wraiths. Battlecruisers were a possible end-game unit. But still I loved TvT in BW. Thats why I try to improve it even more here with other stuff, like Nerve Jammer, Shield on Medics to protect your tanks etc.
Btw, SmileZerg, did you find an opponent to play with on NA?
It is a VERY useful spell. Makes sniping sci vessels all the more important.
PD had slightly better visibility. Its really hard to notice the actual NJ unit because it just blends in looking like a normal unit unlike most spells that are so powerful.
You know right away when a disruption web goes down. You know right away when you see a fungal or any other spell in the game go off. The circle looks just like a tiny unit range circle and that's essentially it, like its waiting for some other effect to occur, but it is the effect.
I didn't like PD visibility either, but at least it had tiny lasers and sound effects to go with it.
edit: I wouldn't worry too much about total realism. SC has always been pretty rule of cool. I remember the threads about how people thought the infestor was really unrealistic because it just puked infested marines who shot guns instead of suicide. Did they eat them before or what? Then we have Toss who is an entire race who uses magitech for everything, all powered off of shiny crystals and brain power. As long as its themed it should be just fine.
Not yet no, but I only had time to go on battle.net briefly. And I know of Disruption Web, I was speaking purely in terms of TvT.
I think NJ could definitely use some visual improvements though. Mostly it's the name and lack of special effects that bugs me. Maybe change it to Disruption Drone and add some sort of field reminiscent of DWeb? Then BW players at least would have an instant understanding of what the spell does, and it might feel less 'magic' and more science-y.
Kay thanks, either my bro or I will message you if we see you online! In the meantime I'd love to see more games casted, there's not a PvZ in the thread yet I believe.
I can't get the invulnerability behavior to work on the set of spider mine effects. Having trouble pin pointing where the actual search for targets thing is.
Changes to HP speed and range will either make them a cake walk for Deathballs, or unable to be picked off by small groups fast enough.
Wait hold up - in regard to the Spider Mines, can't you just make it so they can't be auto-attacked and have to be manually target fired? You already have the Jammer with that attribute and the Void Shell ability from the Dark Archon. That way you can increase the range, and up the skill ceiling for sick mine clearing micro.
Could be OP but I think it's worth a shot. Maybe reduce the mines acceleration to compensate.
Can't say I'm a fan of the economy change. People complain about balance but it's a damn hard thing to do, no one will be able to make a map that will be better than Blizzard's balance, unless you just take away things like MBS and auto-mine and basically steal things from Brood War exactly as they were.
On September 12 2012 13:37 SmileZerg wrote: Wait hold up - in regard to the Spider Mines, can't you just make it so they can't be auto-attacked and have to be manually target fired? You already have the Jammer with that attribute and the Void Shell ability from the Dark Archon. That way you can increase the range, and up the skill ceiling for sick mine clearing micro.
Could be OP but I think it's worth a shot. Maybe reduce the mines acceleration to compensate.
Whoa whoa. I feel so bad for whoever I lay mass mine fields in front of.
Making them invuln would just be a little bit of data editor wizardy.
Having one Cloud spell - Dark Swarm - is enough for visual sake. Having multiple clouds with different effects will make Dark Swarm feel less unique, plus that if two clouds are cast on top of each other it can be consufing and look messy. (Unless I find some really good cloud models, which the editor currently lacks)
Another spell for the Swarm Guardian must not be better than Dark Swarm. It will just be useful in other situations. Just like Plague & Dark Swarm were in BW.
Blinding cloud, as it is in HoTS, is almost like Nerve Jammer. You make a group of enemy ranged units in an area unable to attack. But when HoTS is released I will look at the possibilities of implementing things from it.
@Spider mines They became invulnerable when they unburrowed earlier, and the problem with that was the following scenario:
A group of Stalkers & an Observer attacks into a group of Spider mines & Siege tanks. Stalkers start shooting at the spider mines. The tanks shoot at the Stalkers. Some Stalkers will try to engage the tanks, while some Stalkers will continue shoot at the Spider mines. As soon as 1 stalker comes little too close to a mine, which happens due to the units AI, it will unburrow and detonate. Even though you do not want it, the Stalkers will for various reasons walk a bit too close to the spider mines in a fight, dedpg on what units they chase, and as soon as it unburrows, the other Stalkers can´t shoot it any more. I have made Spider mines the same attack priority as all other units, so it is considered a threatfull unit. But still this problem occured.
This might not sound like a huge problem here, but in game it caused so much frustration for Protoss players. People refused to play PvT. Now, with an Observer present, you are safe vs Spider mines when your Stalkers start to fight vs random units in a combat. But since their detonation range is very short, you will get punished for just walking into them.
I did experiment with Spider mines being "benign", that is a thing that can be set on a unit which makes it unable to be auto-attacked. I use it for Void Shell & Nerve Jammers, and in SC2 Changelings have it. I think it is a fun thing to use since it rewards players interactions & micro. But it was unrealistic to have on Spider mines since they are so spammable. If there are a field of 15 spider mines, you need to focus fire each and every one of them.. just to encounter a new mine field.. Had the Spider Mines been fewer in numbers, it could have been possible to make.
@Spider mines in the editor There is a Behaviour called "Vulture - Spider Mine Invulnerable" which is the behaviour the Spider Mine gets when it unburrows. In it you can change a lot of stuff, like make it invulnerable, change its movement speed, have 1000 life etc The abilities: Spider mine - Burrow & Spider mine - Unburrow determines how Spider mines will behave. There you can change the range in which it reacts to enemy units, what targets it unburrows to attack, how many seconds it will take to burrow and unburrow etc.
Feel free to experiment with it. Let me know if you find a good solution. Maybe you can make a small VOD that shows how the spider mines behave if you manage to change them?
I think Spider mines are ok now. They work and still creates fun micro scenarios. But of course they can be improved.
Is it possible to make the spider mines benign when unburrowed and attacking, but auto-targetable while still burrowed if you sweep with detection? I feel like that would give us the best of both worlds and allow for the range to be upped to bring back mine dragging.
However I'm no editor wiz and I'd have no idea how to go about testing any of this myself. So yeah, if anyone else does experiment with it I'd be interestid in the results.
In BW they were invulnereable for a very short time when they unburrowed. But then they also had a short (but not as short as the invulneability) delay after unburrowing before attacking, making focus fire possible if you are quick. Why not make mines unburrow-stand-chase then detonate, giving P and Z more time to react or drag mines. It would also help if they were more visible. Right now they kinda blend in with the terrain and have little visual or auditorial ques when they activate. Making the body larger and brighter might fix this.
The nerve jammer is an exellent idea, but as others have said its too hard to notice. Maybe give it a "static field" effect inside the circle like pseudo d-webs.
The double cloud caster seems a little exessive. Why not have the secondary ability be a goop on the ground, making units on top of it take extra damage in some way. More visually distinct.
I still think that whatever the swarm guardian ends up having, it should cost 50 energy.
that will, as previously mentioned, make it possible to add a spell which is inferior to dark swarm while also being useful, since at times there will not be a choice to make regarding which spell to cast. right now I feel there is only dark swarm. and if you don't have enough energy for dark swarm then you... wait for energy.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mWkou.jpg)
