On September 13 2012 07:31 decemberscalm wrote: Spider mine tweak video should be up momentarily. Here is the link:
It actually operates kind of like a hunter seeker than can be target fired once it finds a target.
I think they're actually too slow now.. and the range still seems a bit short. Maybe up it to 4.5, and increase the acceleration? If possible I hope you can retain their 'hopping' movement effect like in Brood War too.
They're definitely more interactive now than they were, but I think a range increase is still in order. It would benefit both parties - more area coverage for Terran, more response time for the opponent. That's how they seemed to operate in BW at least, I know the range felt much higher back then.
Oh yeah also is there a way to reduce the delay between the spider mine losing its target and reburrowing?
It actually operates kind of like a hunter seeker than can be target fired once it finds a target.
I think they're actually too slow now.. and the range still seems a bit short. Maybe up it to 4.5, and increase the acceleration? If possible I hope you can retain their 'hopping' movement effect like in Brood War too.
They're definitely more interactive now than they were, but I think a range increase is still in order. It would benefit both parties - more area coverage for Terran, more response time for the opponent. That's how they seemed to operate in BW at least, I know the range felt much higher back then.
Oh yeah also is there a way to reduce the delay between the spider mine losing its target and reburrowing?
Its the first time I've played with it. I agree, big range on spider mines and the ability to shoot them without detection is awesome.
Hopping like they do in SC2 might require more data editor prowess than I currently posses, but I could try my hand at it some time. Blizzard didn't even bother doing that. For now all I'm interested in is how the unit operates, not if it looks pretty while doing it. Despite how sexy those BW spider noises are.
It actually operates kind of like a hunter seeker than can be target fired once it finds a target.
I think they're actually too slow now.. and the range still seems a bit short. Maybe up it to 4.5, and increase the acceleration? If possible I hope you can retain their 'hopping' movement effect like in Brood War too.
They're definitely more interactive now than they were, but I think a range increase is still in order. It would benefit both parties - more area coverage for Terran, more response time for the opponent. That's how they seemed to operate in BW at least, I know the range felt much higher back then.
Oh yeah also is there a way to reduce the delay between the spider mine losing its target and reburrowing?
Its the first time I've played with it. I agree, big range on spider mines and the ability to shoot them without detection is awesome.
Hopping like they do in SC2 might require more data editor prowess than I currently posses, but I could try my hand at it some time. Blizzard didn't even bother doing that. For now all I'm interested in is how the unit operates, not if it looks pretty while doing it. Despite how sexy those BW spider noises are.
Fair enough Although at the very least it should be easy to port over the CLICKTCH (un)burrowing noise from BW right?
Maybe we should take a look at the SC2BW Mod and see if they managed to replicate spider mines better. If so we could just rip them right out of that - I can't be the first person to think of that though...
It actually operates kind of like a hunter seeker than can be target fired once it finds a target.
I think they're actually too slow now.. and the range still seems a bit short. Maybe up it to 4.5, and increase the acceleration? If possible I hope you can retain their 'hopping' movement effect like in Brood War too.
They're definitely more interactive now than they were, but I think a range increase is still in order. It would benefit both parties - more area coverage for Terran, more response time for the opponent. That's how they seemed to operate in BW at least, I know the range felt much higher back then.
Oh yeah also is there a way to reduce the delay between the spider mine losing its target and reburrowing?
Its the first time I've played with it. I agree, big range on spider mines and the ability to shoot them without detection is awesome.
Hopping like they do in SC2 might require more data editor prowess than I currently posses, but I could try my hand at it some time. Blizzard didn't even bother doing that. For now all I'm interested in is how the unit operates, not if it looks pretty while doing it. Despite how sexy those BW spider noises are.
Fair enough Although at the very least it should be easy to port over the CLICKTCH (un)burrowing noise from BW right?
Maybe we should take a look at the SC2BW Mod and see if they managed to replicate spider mines better. If so we could just rip them right out of that - I can't be the first person to think of that though...
I'm not too worried. Whatever gets decided upon will end up being better than the Widow Mines current implementation.
You can take a look at BW mods if you'd llike and tell us which ones are not simply just SC2 with the campaign units added in. Would be interesting to see.
Sounds are pretty easy to port. If you want to nostalgia hard you can actually do a pretty simple mod to your SC2 that replaces most noises with BW counterparts.
Zealots sound like they are beating the crap out of a large metal object again
It actually operates kind of like a hunter seeker than can be target fired once it finds a target.
I think they're actually too slow now.. and the range still seems a bit short. Maybe up it to 4.5, and increase the acceleration? If possible I hope you can retain their 'hopping' movement effect like in Brood War too.
They're definitely more interactive now than they were, but I think a range increase is still in order. It would benefit both parties - more area coverage for Terran, more response time for the opponent. That's how they seemed to operate in BW at least, I know the range felt much higher back then.
Oh yeah also is there a way to reduce the delay between the spider mine losing its target and reburrowing?
Its the first time I've played with it. I agree, big range on spider mines and the ability to shoot them without detection is awesome.
Hopping like they do in SC2 might require more data editor prowess than I currently posses, but I could try my hand at it some time. Blizzard didn't even bother doing that. For now all I'm interested in is how the unit operates, not if it looks pretty while doing it. Despite how sexy those BW spider noises are.
Fair enough Although at the very least it should be easy to port over the CLICKTCH (un)burrowing noise from BW right?
Maybe we should take a look at the SC2BW Mod and see if they managed to replicate spider mines better. If so we could just rip them right out of that - I can't be the first person to think of that though...
I'm not too worried. Whatever gets decided upon will end up being better than the Widow Mines current implementation.
You can take a look at BW mods if you'd llike and tell us which ones are not simply just SC2 with the campaign units added in. Would be interesting to see.
Sounds are pretty easy to port. If you want to nostalgia hard you can actually do a pretty simple mod to your SC2 that replaces most noises with BW counterparts.
Zealots sound like they are beating the crap out of a large metal object again
True that.
I looked through some SC2BW VODs but I can't get a good look at their spider mines. Oh well. Even the ones we have now aren't bad, I'd just love to see something closer to the original down the line.
Your changes do give the opportunity to do some spider mine sniping, which is good. And it also enables the enemy to turn the spider mines against Terran. This will force Terran to position his mines better and not stand too close to them.
But I have a couple of questions:
- Since they are rather slow at the start and then accelerates, can units outrun them? For example if you run your Zerglings through a spider mine field you can escape without taking any damage?
- The current slower speed of the Spider mines have both advantages and disadvantages. The good thing is that its human possible to actually have time to target fire them. The disadvantage seems to be at the marine example. The Spider mines are so slow so they dont have an effect in that combat. They dont provide any area protection for the Marines, due to the small scale combat and it ends quickly. Maybe its because of speedlings on creep. Would you mind exploring that a little further, with other units too?
- What happens if you A-move with 20 Hydras WITHOUT detection into a huge mine field? Would the Hydras just auto-kill them all since they are so slow, or are they not auto-attacked once they unburrow? How hard would it be to pick of all the spider mines without having an Overseer?
- Can you try a larger combat? Maybe a bunch of stalkers, zealots vs tanks, spider mines and marines? Just to see how it all interacts together.
I do like that the spider mines becomes microable. But their main purpose must not be lost either: make an area dangerous. If the spider mines dont blow up in time to stop the enemy, they will get a bit worse. I am not saying thats the case now, but it would be nice if you could explore it a bit more. Thanks!
Ps. I for the most part avoid adding old BW sounds and mimic the looks of the BW units too much in detail. (Especially if that requries extra file size.) If it however has a positive impact on the gameplay, for example it makes things more visable, than there is a valid reason for it. I am myself an old BW-player and huge fan of the game. The spider mine movement might be different in the both games, but as long as they work and look ok in both, I see no reason to change it to look more like BW. After all, a lot of people who play this MOD have never played BW and are not as nostalgic about it.
Ps2. Spider mines on the EU version have 35 life. At NA they have the editors standard 25 life. I sometimes notices small differences in stats. I dont know what causes it, but I fear that you get another kind of balance compared to EU if some stats acts weird. (The reason I gave them more HP is that even if the enemy has detection and kills them, the spider mines will give you an indirect bonus by delaying the army. It the HP is higher it takes longer time to kill them all.)
As I see it right now - increase the intial movement speed of the mines, but make the delay after popping longer (makes them feel more responsive while being about the same speed).
BW'ish movement would be awesome, and you should be able to do something like it with move-stop-move-stop AI implementation. Not really nessesary, but makes them 40% more cool.
They spider mines start out slow, but rapidly accelerate. I'll have to double check but I'm pretty sure even a speed ling on creep won't get too far. We could tweak acceleration or starting speed to ensure no lings can run by
What happened during the marine combat was I knew exactly where the spider mines were. I dodged to the right side of them to pull them to combat. I had tested this earlier with a simply attempt at surrounding the marines, pretending I didn't know the mines were there. The entire zergling force was decimated because mines blow up in contact with enemy units.
The hydras would be forced to get an overseer (buying T time) or be forced to take some casualties unless he right clicks each spider mine to defuse them. They are benign as soon as they pop out.
I'll absolutely try them. It seems like a nerf against mines early game because players can now target shoot, but also a buff because the range is so big compared to the old spider mine and lack of hydras just insta shooting them in an A-move.
one question: if there is a minefield somewhere and I A-move into them with hydras and an overseer, then I would expect my hydras to just kill all of the mines from range without triggering them. regardless of whether the hydras have upgraded range. is this the case with your implementation?
On September 13 2012 21:31 Roblin wrote: one question: if there is a minefield somewhere and I A-move into them with hydras and an overseer, then I would expect my hydras to just kill all of the mines from range without triggering them. regardless of whether the hydras have upgraded range. is this the case with your implementation?
you can already see this in the video. Hydras, marines, stalkers, vultures, they all take out minefields with zero trouble when they have detection. I'm pretty sure firebats would be in trouble though .
I'd have replays of some pretty good games but replays have not been recorded since yesterday for some reason. This happened to my practice partner for some reason too.
It actually operates kind of like a hunter seeker than can be target fired once it finds a target.
I think they're actually too slow now.. and the range still seems a bit short. Maybe up it to 4.5, and increase the acceleration? If possible I hope you can retain their 'hopping' movement effect like in Brood War too.
They're definitely more interactive now than they were, but I think a range increase is still in order. It would benefit both parties - more area coverage for Terran, more response time for the opponent. That's how they seemed to operate in BW at least, I know the range felt much higher back then.
Oh yeah also is there a way to reduce the delay between the spider mine losing its target and reburrowing?
Haha that 'hopping' was so good. With each hop my mind spelled "shit no no no" until my first 3 goons blew up.
I couldn't try starbow yet, but in the video it looks like units do use less supply. Ony thing I don't like about sc2 is that a 200/200 army often looks ridiculously small. Are the units supplys on average smaller than in sc2?
It actually operates kind of like a hunter seeker than can be target fired once it finds a target.
I think they're actually too slow now.. and the range still seems a bit short. Maybe up it to 4.5, and increase the acceleration? If possible I hope you can retain their 'hopping' movement effect like in Brood War too.
They're definitely more interactive now than they were, but I think a range increase is still in order. It would benefit both parties - more area coverage for Terran, more response time for the opponent. That's how they seemed to operate in BW at least, I know the range felt much higher back then.
Oh yeah also is there a way to reduce the delay between the spider mine losing its target and reburrowing?
Haha that 'hopping' was so good. With each hop my mind spelled "shit no no no" until my first 3 goons blew up.
I couldn't try starbow yet, but in the video it looks like units do use less supply. Ony thing I don't like about sc2 is that a 200/200 army often looks ridiculously small. Are the units supplys on average smaller than in sc2?
Most of the battles I've fought in are not ever 200 200. This can even be late game half the time.
Actual unit count is pretty much the same between SCBW, SC2, and Starbow.
What makes armies seem massive in SCBW and Starbow is that they are forced to be split and spread out all the time, even when they have smaller unit counts. In SC2 its extremely advantageous to keep units in deathballs to deal maximum dps. The formations of units also act slightly different to make units stay fanned out at longer distance than usual.
This is the main reason BW battles look awesome, its not two armies who melt instantly against one another. Skirmishes happen over more space.
The actual supply of the units are similar to SC2. A Zealot costs 2 supply, a marine 1 etc.
The armies are somewhat smaller in Starbow. Or rather, the total supply is lower. The first reason is that you don´t need as many workers, and each worker has longer Build time. The other reason is that the maximum income per expansion is lower compared to SC2.
This means that the economy you get from having only 3 bases will not be enough to reach 200/200. (Unless you are veeery patient) I have made it like this to encouarage players to grab more bases. It also means that 200/200 is reached at later stages in the game, with many bases on each side.
But the acceleration of the economy is similar to SC2. Each worker gives more money per minute but has longer build time. So you can still build your hatchery at the 2 minute mark, you get your cybernetics core at the 3-4 minute mark etc. Just as in SC2. The difference lies in the mid-game. When you reach your fully saturated main base, natural and third expansion, the income is not enough for 200/200. So from that point you need to gain more expansions and at the same time prevent the enemy from expanding. And this hopefully leads to more smaller engagements, harass and skirmishes.
Don´t get me wrong. I think big fights are fun too and they still happen in the game. But we don´t see these maxed-out scenarios here as often as we see them in SC2. Which makes huge battles more special, in my opnion
If you check the VODS at the main page, you can see examples of some huge battles.
And it works so well. Games I've been playing, its constant small engagements to defend and attack expansions constantly being built to keep the opponent in check. I'll have hydras attacking one expo, lings another, and then another detachment of lurkers and lings to defend my hatches that are under attack vs terran.
I played a TvT with Arkuss, my favorite match up for WoL. It was glorious. Nerve Jammer is such a good spell for that match up. We both played pretty traditional TvT with stim marines and Tanks as backup. Spread tanks would absolutely punish pushes, while if you lured the army out of position and they had to siege right away, one nerve jammer and you've won the engagement. I had to incorporate wraiths to hunt down sci vessels when they were out of position. Pretty fun stuff.
Very sad I don't have the replays for any of these long games we played .
Sounds strange that the replays have vanished! Are you sure they can´t be found? Mine are saved as normal replays, but in a weird folder. If I search for "replays" I find the folder. I am curious to see some of the games you describe
Me and Arkuss both have the same glitch. It might just be NA entirely. Games were recording yesterday and randomly stopped. Tried saving in the score screen doesn't work according to Arkuss.
EPT
Although at the very least it should be easy to port over the CLICKTCH (un)burrowing noise from BW right?
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