I think that is one of the reasons why Infestors are so useful in SC2. They always have a spell to use. Fungal growth and Neural parasite are rather cheap, which means you dont have to wait a long time before you can use it again. Even if you don´t have much energy you can always cast a few Infested Terrans. If we compare it to the Arbiter, it is a unit with strong but expensive spells. You can use them rarely, but they can win you the game.
And right now the Infestor is a unit that needs improvement. The current line-up of spells in the Starbow Infestor is not good. Players don´t benefit from building them. It has expensive spells that really isnt giving you any real advantages in the game. Maybe Plague in the late game, which is a really expensive and powerful spell. I dont think it fits with the true "concept" of having a versatile Infestor.
My suggestion is to make it have Infested Terrans again. It basically is a spell that gives you a damage and HP boost in an area. Since they dont live forever, the enemy can back away from them, unless the Infestor uses them in a very good situation. The problem is that buildings can´t back away. Thats why its common to see a bunch of Infestors in SC2 destroy an enemy expansion with this. How it probably will look in Starbow:
- 8 seconds to spawn an egg instead of 5. (This means they have a more vulnerable birth state. You can´t just flood them on top on the enemy army as easily, cause if you do they might be killed before they spawn)
- They deal 25% less damage. (They will not be as good at destroying bases.)
- 25% more hitpoints. Maybe 60 instead of 45. (They can absorb a bit more damage in combat. Zerg already have units that deal high damage but have low life, like Zerglings & Hydras)
- They will most likely still last 30 seconds as normal.
This will give the Infestor a spell they always can use. Besides, I will give them Neural parasite as a researchable spell. Just as in normal SC2. I think it can be useful vs Vessels, Tanks, Battlecruisers, Archons, Carriers and Arbiters. Maybe steal the Observer to protect your Lurkers.
And here is the third one... I have two suggestions, but I can´t decide upon which one to use:
1. Fungal Growth. It does NOT deal damage or freeze the enemy units at the spot. (Lurkers & Banelings are already AoE damage dealers) But it will instead slow their movement and attack speed by X%. It will still be an instant-spell that effects an area. Maybe make it effect your own units too, so you don´t want to cast it on a group of enemy units when your Zerglings are up and fighting. Rather cast it seconds before the engagement.
2. Plague. Rather a mini-plague. Maybe 75 energy. Infestors start with it. It deals maybe 60 damage over 30 seconds, or until the enemy unit has 1 life remaining. It can´t kill anything. It can not effect buildings and has a small AoE-radius. This will be a true pre-combat spell. You want to be sneaky with the Infestors, move close to the enemy army, cast it and retreat. Just wait until the enemy units gets weaker before you send in your hungry Zerglings.. You can use it on enemy marines to drain the energy from medics.. It will drain the shields from most protoss units and deal some damage on the life too. Just weakening the enemy before the fight.
The first suggestion is a spell that is more true to the Infestor. It might be more useful too. On the other hand, the mini-plague might lead to some fun back-and-forth play between armies. Terran want to Irradiate, Zerg want to cast "mini-plague." By giving methods to the races to weakeining the enemy army BEFORE combat, I think the game might get more dynamic. You won´t just use your deathball to A-move into the enemy deathball if you can get advantages by sending in a couple of units before the fight.
Hmm.. Whatever I use on the Infestor, the other alternative might be added to the Swarm Guardian in some way. Now I am just thinking loud, so more people are welcome to join the discussion. I simply want to add spells that are useful and leads to a broader gameplay. Spells that can be used in lots of situations are for the most part more fun than spells that can be used in very rare situations.
I'm not sure which of my posts you replied to, but your plans seem fine no matter which spell ends up going where.
but since noone have responded I would like to again repeat: I think swarm guardian should have a spell which cost less than 100 energy.
can someone please comment on whether that seems good or bad? as soon as someone does I will drop the subject but so far it feels like people are ignoring it and I don't know why
I didnt see that as a question, but rather as a personal opinion. But I can reply.
Nothing is wrong with having both a cheap and an expensive spell for the Swarm Guardian. But it depends on if we want it to be a caster that fully goes by the theme of having strong expensive game changing spells. Dark Swarm is expensive and powerful. Another expensive and powerful spell would make the Swarm Guardian become a unit you rarely have at the front line. You just bring it when you need it, then you retreat to safety so it can regenerate energy.
A cheap spell, on the other hand, gives more versatility to it. You will almost have it with you in your army and it will always prove to be useful. Sometimes you must, or simply prefer, to use the cheaper spell since you don´t have time to wait for energy for Dark Swarm.
Yes it might get a spell that costs 50 energy and it will probably be the better choice. But it depends on what second spell I finally settle with.
Giving the plague (PLAGUUUUU) to the Swarm guardian seems like good design, as both casters will have a positioning ability and a damaging (if remade infested terrans could be called that) ability. With a hefty slow fungal growth still has that "gotcha" feeling, but is useless as a standalone spell, witch is one of the problems with the normal fungal.
Another benefit of giving the remade plague to the Swarm guardian is that it makes the unit instanly familiar to new players (Defiler remade), but is still new enough that it feels and plays uniquely.
I try to make things instantly familiar for newer players, as much as possible, even though some things are new and takes a while to get used to. So for that reason I do consider giving it back the Fungal Growth in a non-damage way.. Even though I am tempted to give it a mini-plague! Sneaky infestors moving up and infecting the enemy... Maybe the Infested Terran can be adjusted to further become a positioning ability as you say.. If they last a shorter time, but become a bit stronger, it gets more important where you choose to spawn them..
A long time ago, I had both Plague, Consume and Dark Swarm on the Swarm Guardian. The mobility it has, compared to Defiliers, made it very easy to Plague everywhere. Fly into the enemy base, Plague all buildings. I removed it. This does not mean that it cant be re-added in some other form.
Maybe it deals a very slow rate of damage to units and can not effect buildings. 2 damage per second...The normal Plague deals its damage rather fast. 6-8 damage per second I think. I will not upload any new patch today though. I will wait some days. hmm.
I know there's a lot of BW in Starbow already, but I really much preferred a ground spell caster for dark swarm and plague and consume. A clumsy unit that can't get anywhere by itself, is very vulnerable and makes use of staying burrowed. It seems hard to balance such spells on a flying unit.
Alright, as far as Zerg casters are concerned, I've got a few ideas. Don't worry, I'm not adding any new abilities, I just think I've got a creative solution for how to reshuffle the Brood War and SC2 ones around among units.
To start with, let's look at the casters in terms of theme, lorewise as well as mechanics wise. The Infestor should be about weakening, subverting and turning the enemies own units against him, and because of its ability to burrow-move, should operate through stealth and sneak attack. Both Neural Parasite and to some extent Infested Terrans fit this theme, especially if they're both castable while burrowed (I hope you're planning to keep that in). IT's are also desirable because they are a low energy spell that gives the Infestor versatility in many situations, and the Infestor is essentially required tech since their structure unlocks Hive. Now as for Fungal Growth, while it does in some ways weaken the enemy units by lowering their attack speed and mobility, I feel like Plague is a better fit (they even had the spell back during WoL Alpha), for the following reasons:
1. It's a pre-combat spell, rather than an in-combat spell. As has been mentioned a few times already, this opens up more interesting dynamics with the little back and forth battles before a major engagement, with burrow-moving Infestors trying to pop out and spring a good Plague on the enemy force from an unexpected angle before escaping. Fungal doesn't have quite the same impact and is therefore less desirable to risk your Infestors for.
2. If Plague is modified to work in a similar manner to Irradiate, i.e. targets a single unit but the effect 'jumps' from unit to unit like an actual disease, it would fit the 'turning the enemies own units against him' requirement. It would increase the micro opportunities for both sides as well - the Zerg player would be rewarded for better targeting, the opponent for splitting his units quickly and isolating the plagued ones. This could also be the weakness that we're looking for to make it into more of a 'mini-Plague', rather than reducing the damage.
Now let's take a look at the Swarm Guardian real quick: The theme for this unit is protecting the swarm. It is a defensive caster. But I see an issue with that, because we already have something of a defensive caster unit in the Zerg repetoire - the Queen.
What if we moved Dark Swarm over to the Queen? It would then have two protective abilities, including Transfuse, both which use organic orange effects and would fit together visually. Dark Swarm would once again come from a slow-moving ground unit which requires protection and can only be built in small numbers (1 per hatchery), and it could open up more possibilities for early game defense on the Zerg's part if we lowered the requirement from Hive Tech (of course that's just an option to consider). But how to use it offensively? Well, lategame there should be more creep-spread, Overlord Drops and perhaps even the return of Nydus Worms.
What does this mean for the Swarm Guardian? We can cut it, and replace it with the Viper from HotS (we can keep the Swarm Guardians model as a placeholder for the time being). The Viper is one of the coolest looking units ever designed in my opinion and it would be a shame not to introduce it to the Mod. Of course we need to remove the blinding cloud spell, because it overlaps too heavily with the Nerve Jammer on the SciVessel. And what to replace it with?
Fungal Growth, which I suggest we just rename Ensnare as that's essentially what it does now (only with the added bonus of reducing attack speed), and then we've come full circle. Suddenly the Viper has developed a theme all its own - mobility related spells. Ensnare and Abduct are both about slowing, inhibiting or dragging in the enemy so they can be overtaken by the swarm, and the fact that they are casted by a fast-moving, aerial unit ties the whole package together exceptionally well. We can easily leave Consume alone without balance concerns, because none of the Viper's spells cause any sort of damage on their own - it's purely a lategame positional support unit.
It could be a Hive requirement, or we could experiment with letting it research at Lair tech or even earlier, since Queens off creep are too abysmally slow to rush with offensively.
One concern is that Queen drops out of Overlords, casting DS and then retreating a la reaver/shuttle type micro might be too powerful before Hive tech, though. So most likely, yes, Tier 3.
On September 13 2012 05:14 SmileZerg wrote: It could be a Hive requirement, or we could experiment with letting it research at Lair tech or even earlier, since Queens off creep are too abysmally slow to rush with offensively.
One concern is that Queen drops out of Overlords, casting DS and then retreating a la reaver/shuttle type micro might be too powerful before Hive tech, though. So most likely, yes, Tier 3.
You'd need to research overload speed, overlord drop and then set it up so i don't think thats something you'd need to worry about.
The fact that they're locked to hatch count is a good thing, in my opinion; since Queens cost no gas it would be ridiculous if you could mass them for a huge amount of Dark Swarms.
With a couple macro hatches in a late game engagement I don't think it would be too uncommon to see 3-4 Queens on the front lines while the rest stay home for injects or what have you. You rarely see more Swarm Guardians or Defilers than that anyway right?
Nice to hear about the spider mine though, I look forward to seeing the changes!
I´m soon going to sleep so this will be my last reply for the day. I will continue the discussion tomorrow.
@decemberscalm I am looking forward to see the Spider mine comparison. When people come with suggestions on how to improve spells/abilities/units, I sometimes ask them to create a seperate version for me. Its not because I don´t care or because I am too lazy to do it myself. My time is just limited and I have so much other stuff in real life and with this MOD that needs to be fixed. If indeed the Spider mines you propose have better effects on the game than the old ones, I will use it.
@SmileZerg I agree with your description on the Infestor. I will most likely add some kind of Plague spell to it. The other version of Plague you describe sounds nice and would add a micro aspect to it.. But its way too advanced for me. I don´t have the skills to make a spell like that. So I will probably stick with a weaker version of the normal Plague, since its a Lair spell. (Unless anyone wanna try and create a Plague spell as you suggested)
Having Dark Swarm on the Queen does make sense in some regards. It strenghtens the defenders advantage, it really encourages creep spread, you gain more use of Overlord creep highways, you can transport Queens in Overlords and they need constant supervision.. Maybe spawning Nyduses out on the map will be useful too. You gotta do some work in the game to reap the benefits of the powerful Dark Swarm. It has potential!
The downside of it is the "OMG WTF IS THIS? LOL" - factor. As usual, players expect units to be in a certain way. The Queen in SC2 is the Queen.. All of a sudden, a fundamental aspect of it will be changed, which may cause confusion and people reacting with suspision to this MOD. Earlier attempts of changing fundamental things in units has resultet in very negative responses and reactions from many newer players, even if the ideas in theory were good. Thats why I try to stick with the concept of letting stuff be as close to its original design as possible.
Furthermore, the Viper might very well be implemented when HoTS is released. But for now, the Swarm Guardian still need its place in the game. Abduct must be created from scrath, and maybe a new form of Ensnare/Fungal. And it will require even more work. Will it be Tier 3? Or will it be Tier 2 as Infestors already are?
I am not saying yes or no to the idea yet. I will think about it. I just feel that this is a rather complex solution and it might be smoother ways of making the units/spell fit into the game. But I do enjoy reading creative and well written suggestions
On September 13 2012 05:34 SmileZerg wrote: The fact that they're locked to hatch count is a good thing, in my opinion; since Queens cost no gas it would be ridiculous if you could mass them for a huge amount of Dark Swarms.
With a couple macro hatches in a late game engagement I don't think it would be too uncommon to see 3-4 Queens on the front lines while the rest stay home for injects or what have you. You rarely see more Swarm Guardians or Defilers than that anyway right?
Nice to hear about the spider mine though, I look forward to seeing the changes!
We had some good matches with your brother .
Lemme know when you want to hop on and I'll see if I can get on as well.
Kabel brings up an excellent point. All the units in this game act pretty closely to how you think they would. Even with the added in Swarm Guardian, its easy to just say, that's a flying defiler.
Queen has its role pretty defined as a maintenance and harass defense unit. They NEED to be at bases injecting larva or you will fall behind because larva production is set just so. You'll have to build more macro hatches than even SCBW players are used to.
You're plague idea sounds pretty cool. We could post on SC2Mapster for help on that one.
I like the idea of queens with dark swarm. maybe even letting them have it early game, an upgrade similar to burrow? i think it is a really cool aspect for early game defense and has interesting micro potential for the later game.
On September 13 2012 05:58 Kabel wrote: @SmileZerg I agree with your description on the Infestor. I will most likely add some kind of Plague spell to it. The other version of Plague you describe sounds nice and would add a micro aspect to it.. But its way too advanced for me. I don´t have the skills to make a spell like that. So I will probably stick with a weaker version of the normal Plague, since its a Lair spell. (Unless anyone wanna try and create a Plague spell as you suggested)
Yeah, I hope someone else can figure it out. I've mentioned before, programmings not really my field, I'm just a creative design guy.
Having Dark Swarm on the Queen does make sense in some regards. It strenghtens the defenders advantage, it really encourages creep spread, you gain more use of Overlord creep highways, you can transport Queens in Overlords and they need constant supervision.. Maybe spawning Nyduses out on the map will be useful too. You gotta do some work in the game to reap the benefits of the powerful Dark Swarm. It has potential!
The downside of it is the "OMG WTF IS THIS? LOL" - factor. As usual, players expect units to be in a certain way. The Queen in SC2 is the Queen.. All of a sudden, a fundamental aspect of it will be changed, which may cause confusion and people reacting with suspision to this MOD. Earlier attempts of changing fundamental things in units has resultet in very negative responses and reactions from many newer players, even if the ideas in theory were good. Thats why I try to stick with the concept of letting stuff be as close to its original design as possible.
I do understand that point, but I don't think it would be too jarring a change - it's moving an established Brood War spell from one ground caster to another ground caster, and like I said it thematically strengthens the 'defensive' aspect of Queens. I think this is something we could get away with. Like adding Recall to the Nexus, it might be a bit new at first but it just feels right, in my opinion.
Furthermore, the Viper might very well be implemented when HoTS is released. But for now, the Swarm Guardian still need its place in the game. Abduct must be created from scrath, and maybe a new form of Ensnare/Fungal. And it will require even more work. Will it be Tier 3? Or will it be Tier 2 as Infestors already are?
Well, there was the HotS custom map floating around before the beta which already had the Viper, with the Swarm Guardian model as proxy, programmed in. If you could find a way to copy it over you wouldn't have to go through the trouble of coding Abduct. Ensnare should be easy enough, since it already exists in the current build as the Infest ability right?
Also I was thinking the Viper should be Tier 3, simply for the fact that unlocking two different support caster units at Tier 2 seems a bit cluttered, and Abduct could be a very powerful spell too early on.
I am not saying yes or no to the idea yet. I will think about it. I just feel that this is a rather complex solution and it might be smoother ways of making the units/spell fit into the game. But I do enjoy reading creative and well written suggestions
Thanks! I hope you at least give my ideas a try at some point - they can always be changed later if they don't work out. I'd love to see them experimented with by different players.
On September 13 2012 05:34 SmileZerg wrote: The fact that they're locked to hatch count is a good thing, in my opinion; since Queens cost no gas it would be ridiculous if you could mass them for a huge amount of Dark Swarms.
With a couple macro hatches in a late game engagement I don't think it would be too uncommon to see 3-4 Queens on the front lines while the rest stay home for injects or what have you. You rarely see more Swarm Guardians or Defilers than that anyway right?
Nice to hear about the spider mine though, I look forward to seeing the changes!
We had some good matches with your brother .
Lemme know when you want to hop on and I'll see if I can get on as well.
I'll see when I can. There's only one computer in this house that runs SC2 and it's usually occupied by people playing WoW - the lag can be pretty bad at times too. My brother doesn't live with me and has a much faster setup so it was easier for him to try it out.
EPT
