EPT(main gripe being slower larva production).
Shouldn't that be the thing to fix then?
[A] Starbow - Page 72
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scen
Wales61 Posts
Shouldn't that be the thing to fix then? | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
First of all, the larvae system is different. They spawn slower. The reason for that is the increased build time on workers, compared to SC2/BW. Since each base here requires fewer workers to be fully saturated, the workers have a higher BT to make the saturation time better. Earlier, bases were saturated too fast which was a problem for various reasons. If larvas are spawned at a normal Sc2 rate, Zerg will get a massive worker advantage compared to Terran and Protoss. Right now all races develops their economy at the same rate. Roblin helped me calculate the values I use, so they are not taken out of the blue. It does however force another play-style from Zerg. Each larvae is more important. You got to take the decision carefully what to do with the larvaes.. And you need more hatcheries. Old BW-players seems to like it, the SC2 players hate it. I am not saying its a perfect system in its current form. It looks ok in terms of balance, but in terms of fun or enjoyment it lacks, I guess. And thats an important factor to consider. Anyways, I think a problem can be the mid and late-game units for Zerg: Infestors, Lurkers, Mutalisks, Brood lords and Swarm Guardians.. Almost all tech units feels incomplete.. Infestors are really nothing players opt for now. You don´t get Lair to get Infestor. They have no Fungal, no Infested Terran. Having a few Infestors on the board does not terrify the opponent anymore. Why did I made the Infestor like this? Zerg has AoE-dmg from Lurkers & Banelings. Having an early AoE spell like Fungal growth felt unecessary. Instead I gave them a early snipe spell to use vs single powerful targets: Neural parasite. I remade Fungal Growth into "Infest." which is a missile that hits a group of enemy units. Their attack and move speed are reduced by 50%. I don´t like instant micro-reducing abilities like Fungal Growth, Lockdown, Maelstrom etc. Stuff you can´t do anything to avoid. (Thats why I remade Maelstrom a little bit, for you who have not noticed) I gave them Plague as a late game pre-combat spell. Its not effective in combat, you want to sneak up to the enemy before combat and cast it. So it drains life over time. Maybe its just me, but when Infestors use Plague on the enemy it does not feel like this: To sum it up: Infestors feels incomplete and less interesting and useful than its SC2 cousin. If they were actually something to aim for now to get, that would change a lot. They kinda feel like the Queen in BW. Lurkers.. I don´t know what causes it, but they just don´t feel good enough.. You might aswell just get loads of Hydras vs Protoss.. No need for lurkers.. Still I have buffed them several times.. When I play vs lurkers I do not fear them. I A-move into them and kill them with ease. They have potential to be an interesting combat and area control unit, but right now they feel dull.. And their stats here are way better than in Brood War! Mutalisks are unchanged compared to SC2. But they are not as effecient anymore. The gas income is a bit lower now than in SC2, so you can´t get high numbers as easy. Also Corsairs and Cannons with chrono boost stop them. Terran can use Vessels with Irradiate and Marines & Medics to shut them down quite easily. They just seems lousy nowadays.. Brood Lords are not a realistic hive tech choice.. Swarm Guardians and Ultras are so much better.. Since Brood Lords dont shoot broodlings anymore, they don´t feel the same way.. The reason I changed that was because of the Reaver. Reaver kept auto-attacking the broodlings and it is impossible to control the reaver vs Zerg in lategame. Instead Brood Lords shoot a normal missile. The enemy gets a buff that lasts 5 seconds. If they die while they have that buff on them, 2 broodlings spawns. Swarm Guardians feel incomplete. Dark Swarm is great, I love it. It makes combat so much more fun. But it has no other realistic uses.. Ok Frenzy is decent, but compared to Dark Swarm you never prefer Frenzy over it. Today I saw a player fly with 5-7 Swarm Guardians.. I was like "oh what will he do with them?" and then I realized it´s only realistic spell is Dark Swarm. I like when casters has several good options. Like Dark Swarm or Plague, Irradiate or Nerve Jammer, Recall or Stasis Field etc. --- I have no numbers or facts to back this up with. I just go by my feeling. Zerg do not currently feel as fun/interesting to play as the other races. Maybe some of the units needs to be redesigned in some ways. I will try to not be too drastic. And as usual, suggestions and thoughts are welcome. Ps. I should sent the update to NA today, but we found some new bugs that I must fix. Its late here in Sweden now, but I will fix it tomorrow and send it as soon as possible. | ||
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woodstock006
United States16 Posts
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Incorrigible
United States10 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2012 06:54 pzea469 wrote: I don't go on very much but when I do I never find anyone on US We had a bunch of games going on yesterday. Its why I was trying to get people to idle on irc. Its easy for me to idle there, but I don't always have SC2 left idle. | ||
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scen
Wales61 Posts
Its so hard to harrass with plantarys... do terrans really need it with bunkers, spider mines and siege tanks. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On September 10 2012 09:25 scen wrote: Not sure when you decided to make it so you start at 7 workers but i think that its awesome (could possibly go up to 8). Its so hard to harrass with plantarys... do terrans really need it with bunkers, spider mines and siege tanks. Nope they don't. Protoss also doesn't need Immortals. That just makes P able to A move into tanks. Such a boring unit. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On September 10 2012 07:18 Kabel wrote: I do agree that Zerg feels like the most unfinished race. First of all, the larvae system is different. They spawn slower. The reason for that is the increased build time on workers, compared to SC2/BW. Since each base here requires fewer workers to be fully saturated, the workers have a higher BT to make the saturation time better. Earlier, bases were saturated too fast which was a problem for various reasons. If larvas are spawned at a normal Sc2 rate, Zerg will get a massive worker advantage compared to Terran and Protoss. Right now all races develops their economy at the same rate. Roblin helped me calculate the values I use, so they are not taken out of the blue. It does however force another play-style from Zerg. Each larvae is more important. You got to take the decision carefully what to do with the larvaes.. And you need more hatcheries. Old BW-players seems to like it, the SC2 players hate it. I am not saying its a perfect system in its current form. It looks ok in terms of balance, but in terms of fun or enjoyment it lacks, I guess. And thats an important factor to consider. Anyways, I think a problem can be the mid and late-game units for Zerg: Infestors, Lurkers, Mutalisks, Brood lords and Swarm Guardians.. Almost all tech units feels incomplete.. Infestors are really nothing players opt for now. You don´t get Lair to get Infestor. They have no Fungal, no Infested Terran. Having a few Infestors on the board does not terrify the opponent anymore. Why did I made the Infestor like this? Zerg has AoE-dmg from Lurkers & Banelings. Having an early AoE spell like Fungal growth felt unecessary. Instead I gave them a early snipe spell to use vs single powerful targets: Neural parasite. I remade Fungal Growth into "Infest." which is a missile that hits a group of enemy units. Their attack and move speed are reduced by 50%. I don´t like instant micro-reducing abilities like Fungal Growth, Lockdown, Maelstrom etc. Stuff you can´t do anything to avoid. (Thats why I remade Maelstrom a little bit, for you who have not noticed) I gave them Plague as a late game pre-combat spell. Its not effective in combat, you want to sneak up to the enemy before combat and cast it. So it drains life over time. Maybe its just me, but when Infestors use Plague on the enemy it does not feel like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpuv7VPb2rA To sum it up: Infestors feels incomplete and less interesting and useful than its SC2 cousin. If they were actually something to aim for now to get, that would change a lot. They kinda feel like the Queen in BW. Lurkers.. I don´t know what causes it, but they just don´t feel good enough.. You might aswell just get loads of Hydras vs Protoss.. No need for lurkers.. Still I have buffed them several times.. When I play vs lurkers I do not fear them. I A-move into them and kill them with ease. They have potential to be an interesting combat and area control unit, but right now they feel dull.. And their stats here are way better than in Brood War! Mutalisks are unchanged compared to SC2. But they are not as effecient anymore. The gas income is a bit lower now than in SC2, so you can´t get high numbers as easy. Also Corsairs and Cannons with chrono boost stop them. Terran can use Vessels with Irradiate and Marines & Medics to shut them down quite easily. They just seems lousy nowadays.. Brood Lords are not a realistic hive tech choice.. Swarm Guardians and Ultras are so much better.. Since Brood Lords dont shoot broodlings anymore, they don´t feel the same way.. The reason I changed that was because of the Reaver. Reaver kept auto-attacking the broodlings and it is impossible to control the reaver vs Zerg in lategame. Instead Brood Lords shoot a normal missile. The enemy gets a buff that lasts 5 seconds. If they die while they have that buff on them, 2 broodlings spawns. Swarm Guardians feel incomplete. Dark Swarm is great, I love it. It makes combat so much more fun. But it has no other realistic uses.. Ok Frenzy is decent, but compared to Dark Swarm you never prefer Frenzy over it. Today I saw a player fly with 5-7 Swarm Guardians.. I was like "oh what will he do with them?" and then I realized it´s only realistic spell is Dark Swarm. I like when casters has several good options. Like Dark Swarm or Plague, Irradiate or Nerve Jammer, Recall or Stasis Field etc. --- I have no numbers or facts to back this up with. I just go by my feeling. Zerg do not currently feel as fun/interesting to play as the other races. Maybe some of the units needs to be redesigned in some ways. I will try to not be too drastic. And as usual, suggestions and thoughts are welcome. Ps. I should sent the update to NA today, but we found some new bugs that I must fix. Its late here in Sweden now, but I will fix it tomorrow and send it as soon as possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfFMcMF2Nio&feature=player_embedded Infestor: neural parasite isn't used much because there aren't many good targets that are worth the risk, every time you use neural parasite you put the infestor in danger, and for what? a marine? absolutely not. a medic? no. a ghost? why? a firebat? nah. a tank? decent, but the other tanks will likely kill the infestor before your tank deals any major damage. a goliath? nope. a vulture? I don't think so. a battlecruiser? sounds good, but they are very rarely used. a science vessel? has potential but is really hard to pull of. a dropship? no. a wraith? no. a viking? nope. a zerg unit? maybe lurker or broodlord, but good luck with that. a gateway unit? maybe hightemplar. reavers are impossible to get to. immortals seem doable. archons are probably pretty good targets. voidray? maybe. carriers? seems good if you can get to them. If neural parasite gets buffed in any way then I would recommend increasing the range. since there are no longer the obviously really powerful targets like thors and colossus the reward for successfully executing neural parasite is way lower, thus the risk just isn't worth it. I thus recommend reducing the risk. plague and infest however seems really good on paper (I'm halfway convinced that infest is overpowered personally), but appearantly people just doesn't like it. personally I think they will be used more as the metagame develops. Lurkers: I am of the opinion that lurkers are fine the way they are now, they feel great vs terran and not quite as good vs protoss, but I am not convinced that that merits a change. but thats just my opinion. Mutalisks: I agree. when I play it doesn't feel like mutalisks are a choice to go for. maybe do something funny that plays to the mutalisks previous niches like changing how the glaive bounce works (by increasing bounces or changing damage reduction by bounce or both) by playing to its existing abilities there will be little or no difficulty for the players in adapting to the change. Broodlords: I am not convinced broodlords are not viable, but if you want to make them stronger without changing how they work I would recommend just increasing how many broodlings spawn when stuff dies. for example, instead of 2 broodlings spawning, perhaps spawn something like 4-6 of them. that will definitely be noticeable, the problem is if it is so noticeable that the old problems come back (reaver stuff). it feels like the real problem lies in the fact that reaver ammunition costs minerals while there are targets that cost nothing, a good solution would be to just make reavers not attack broodlings, perhaps with a custom tag? like: "temporary" and make reavers unable to attack units with the "temporary" tag. I don't even know if that is possible to do. but if it is then the broodlord can come back in its old AI-crashing glory with broodling projectiles. Swarm Guardian: I agree, it needs another useful spell. right now its basicly "the carrier of the brown gas" I have said previously that "even if swarm guardian had just that one ability I would still get it for that" one problem might be that dark swarm is so extremely powerful that it overshadows anything else. because afterall, what could possibly be so powerful that there is merit in choosing it over invulnerability? one solution I can think of is to give the swarm guardian something that I am sure everyone have noticed but noone have complained about, simply because dark swarm is so good. when the swarm guardian is built there is a wait-time before it can do anything at all. If anything is done, then I suggest adding a 50-energy ability which is unlocked as standard and make dark swarm researchable, I often find myself in situations where I have swarm guardians with a good bit of energy, but not quite 100 energy, so they cannot do anything at all. in those situations I would rather have something fairly useful and cheap than something really strong and expensive. perhaps decrease the AOE size of frenzy and let it cost 50 energy? or maybe try something crazy like target biological unit or building regenerates 100 health per second for 10 seconds. (aka: this unit cannot be killed unless heavily focusfired) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The most notable changes are: Workers collect 8 minerals and 6 gas per trip. Players start with 6 workers again. The build time per worker is 25 seconds. (Earlier workers collected 7 gas & minerals per trip, you started with 7 workers and they had build time 22 seconds) But you still only need 2 workers per mineral patch! The gas and mineral ratio: You gather 3.275 times more minerals than gas in SC2 with max saturation on a base. Now you do that too here. Earlier the gas income in Starbow was very high compared to the mineral income. Saturation time: Since there are fewer, but more effective, workers in the game, the build time of each has been increased to correspond better with the saturation time in SC2 and BW. The time it takes to fully saturate your main base is now similar to SC2/BW. Acceleration rate: The economy of Starbow corresponds better with the acceleration time of the SC2/BW economies. For example, you now have the same mineral income 3 minutes into the game in Starbow as you have in BW and SC2, even if you have fewer workers. So Starbow has neither a slower or faster "start up" right now in the first minutes of the game. Mineral patches: One other important adjustment is that the main base has 9 mineral patches and each expansion only 6. Earlier in Starbow, the income from the main base was very low. You could not support much from 1 base, which forced players into fast expand or else get behind. The maximum income from the main base is now as high as in SC2 and BW. Expansions: Each expansion generarates less income compared to SC2/BW, due to only having 6 mineral patches. This is once again to strengthen the statement that more bases are crucial for a strong economy and to reach 200/200 supply. It also means that the saturation time on expansions is a bit faster compared to SC2, because you only need 12 workers on minerals and 3 on gas. This gives us two "extreme" values: You can in a relative short time gain a maximum (but low) income from an expansion. On the other hand, you can easily lose all workers at an expansion. Psi Storm, a reaver, marine drop or mutalisks or other forms of harass can kill 12 workers easily, which means that you go from 100% to 0% efficency in an expansion. What this does is that harass gets better to opt for, but it also makes it more important with proper defence. These values were true earlier too, when you needed 16 workers per base. They are just more obvious now. --- Hope I explained this clearly enough without adding tons of values and calculations. (I have them if anyone wanna see them) Simply put, the total income is quite similar to before. These changes has made the values and ratios a bit smoother. This was implemented 2 days ago. I am still evaluating it. One thing I am doubtful about is the 6 mineral patches per expansion. It strengthens the fact that you truly need fewer workers.. (maybe too few) And the income ratio between 6 patches + 1 geyser are very nice and if I make each base have 7 or 8 patches, it will be screwed and the income will get kinda high, due to workers being so effective. On the other hand, maybe the fast saturation time and the risk of loosing everything to harassment in no time, proves to add negative consequenses to the game. If a base is flooded with workers, harassment rarely kills them all, just a small portion of them. Thoughts or questions? | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Good point regarding the Neural Parasite. It has no proper targets that is worth the risk. I might as well throw this out here: I generally try to make units be as people expect them to be. I think I have to do that with the Infestor too. I will probably make it something like this: - Starts with Infested Terran. Right now Zerg has no units that can whitstand damage. Hydras & Zerglings are fragile. There are no roaches. So I will probably make Infested Terrans have a bit more health but slightly lower damage. They will be more useful to substain damage in combat than to deal damage, since hydras and Zerglings already are units with high damage but low life. Maybe lower the infested terran dmg by 20% and increase life by 20%. I also think that Infested Terrans and spider mines can create some fun micro scenarios. - Add a twist to Fungal Growth. I don´t like it because it locks enemy units, it is an instant spell and it deals AoE damage. Its a spell that combos with itself. It freezes AND kills. I would like it if it was dodgeable to some degree, it slowed enemy units and it didn´t kill stuff.. (Since Lurkers and Banelings do AoE damage now) I consider turning it into a mini-plague. It deals the same damage as Fungal Growth, but it can´t kill anything. Instead of freezing the enemy at the spot, it just slows movement and attack speed by X%. I also consider making it a missile so the enemy can micro vs it. The only problem with it being a missile is that it hits the ground upon impact. Which makes it odd when casted on enemy air units. Unless I make the missile hit only 1 unit and then have an AoE-effect, like the current Infest has. The annoying thing with that is that you can´t see what area it will effect... Hmm.. - Neural parasite as a researchable spell. As in normal SC2. Plague in its current form, as an expensive late game spell, will be shaped into a smaller more versatile form of Fungal Growth. Something people are more familiar with: Cheap massable spells on the Infestor rather than expensive ones. Swarm Guardian on the other hand is a completely new unit. There is room for new spells on it since people don´t expect anything from it. I think Infestors will be more versatile and useful now. Something actually worth getting. Lurkers.. I consider making their armor be 2 when burried and 0 when unburrowed, instead of always 1. They are vulnerable when running around but more solid once in position. That extra armor will make them take less dmg from marines, vultures, stalkers and zealots. Or add a seperate armor upg that gives burrowed lurkers extra armor. Once again, their weakness will be unburrowed. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On September 10 2012 20:43 nucLeaRTV wrote: Is it me or adjusting the economy was the most changed thing throughout the time. Why don't you try find a great balance combo and then fix the economy? I mean... both players get the same income regardless of the collection rate overall, so it's not like it causes imbalances, just the game feeling is changed.. Of course the economy can look in any way as long as it is similar for both players. The game would be playable and balanceable if each worker generated 100 minerals per trip too. The reason I adjust it is that I get new input from people like Barrin, Roblin and many more regarding the numbers and calculations of the economy. Its a complex field. I want to make a solid foundation for the game that feels good and corresponds quite well to the feeling and experience players have from SC2 and BW. There is a certain pace in the games, a certain set of relationships between the numbers, build time, income etc. I mean, I think something is wrong when players float 2000 gas every game. (Its been like that earlier) I can either adjust the costs or the income. Or I can just let it be. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
further larvae nerfs may worsen the previous related issues. | ||
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scen
Wales61 Posts
On September 10 2012 19:50 pzea469 wrote: Nope they don't. Protoss also doesn't need Immortals. That just makes P able to A move into tanks. Such a boring unit. have you even tried using immortals in this mod? | ||
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scen
Wales61 Posts
On September 10 2012 20:54 Kabel wrote: @Roblin Good point regarding the Neural Parasite. It has no proper targets that is worth the risk. I might as well throw this out here: I generally try to make units be as people expect them to be. I think I have to do that with the Infestor too. I will probably make it something like this: - Starts with Infested Terran. Right now Zerg has no units that can whitstand damage. Hydras & Zerglings are fragile. There are no roaches. So I will probably make Infested Terrans have a bit more health but slightly lower damage. They will be more useful to substain damage in combat than to deal damage, since hydras and Zerglings already are units with high damage but low life. Maybe lower the infested terran dmg by 20% and increase life by 20%. I also think that Infested Terrans and spider mines can create some fun micro scenarios. - Add a twist to Fungal Growth. I don´t like it because it locks enemy units, it is an instant spell and it deals AoE damage. Its a spell that combos with itself. It freezes AND kills. I would like it if it was dodgeable to some degree, it slowed enemy units and it didn´t kill stuff.. (Since Lurkers and Banelings do AoE damage now) I consider turning it into a mini-plague. It deals the same damage as Fungal Growth, but it can´t kill anything. Instead of freezing the enemy at the spot, it just slows movement and attack speed by X%. I also consider making it a missile so the enemy can micro vs it. The only problem with it being a missile is that it hits the ground upon impact. Which makes it odd when casted on enemy air units. Unless I make the missile hit only 1 unit and then have an AoE-effect, like the current Infest has. The annoying thing with that is that you can´t see what area it will effect... Hmm.. - Neural parasite as a researchable spell. As in normal SC2. Plague in its current form, as an expensive late game spell, will be shaped into a smaller more versatile form of Fungal Growth. Something people are more familiar with: Cheap massable spells on the Infestor rather than expensive ones. Swarm Guardian on the other hand is a completely new unit. There is room for new spells on it since people don´t expect anything from it. I think Infestors will be more versatile and useful now. Something actually worth getting. Lurkers.. I consider making their armor be 2 when burried and 0 when unburrowed, instead of always 1. They are vulnerable when running around but more solid once in position. That extra armor will make them take less dmg from marines, vultures, stalkers and zealots. Or add a seperate armor upg that gives burrowed lurkers extra armor. Once again, their weakness will be unburrowed. Please god don't add infested terran. Free units really arn't good for the game. Just make fungal growth do a bit more damage with a bigger aoe and don't let it slow or stick. Why do you want to buff the lurkers health instead of its damage? The damage it does is the problem. Also i dont know if its a glitch but sometimes plague kills units. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On September 10 2012 22:38 Roblin wrote: with the new build time on the workers zerg will once again have a slight advantage in early-game worker production, however it is much smaller compared to before, is this something you are looking to adjust as well or will you keep the larvae production as is? further larvae nerfs may worsen the previous related issues. I will not slow down larvae production any more right now. They have a slight drone advantage but it still looks even in games. The downside is their ability to produce units, since they are short on larvas. Please god don't add infested terran. Free units really arn't good for the game. I dont think free units must be bad for the game. Especially not if they only last a small amount of time. What is wrong with that? Why do you want to buff the lurkers health instead of its damage? The damage it does is the problem. I generally try to not increase the damage of units too much, since that makes combat end very quickly. Damage & attack speed = time it takes to kill something. The slower it takes, the more reaction time are their for players. I think the lurkers gets more interesting if they are a bit more "fortified" while burrowed but very vulnerable when unburrowed. The enemy you got to cease the moment and rush in and snipe them before they burrow, or blink with stalkers to kill them. Since a higher armor will make them more resistent to balls of low-tier enemy units just A-moving into them. Sure, higher damage will do that too, but do we want combat that ends in seconds? Also i dont know if its a glitch but sometimes plague kills units. Yeah its a glitch with the validators. The buff does not stop once the unit reaches 1 HP. I will look at it. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
Rather than messing with the worker AI, I decided to play around with mineral placement. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C1pUFl.jpg) I did these calculations on bases that were as close to standard SC2 as possible. Since you've changed minerals/trip and build time of workers, and their movement speed, you may want to decrease the number of patches to 3x3. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LphwDl.png) The data is only taken at intervals of 6 and only on one test (as I didn't have a huge amount of time to sit through and watch replays). There is definitely a better way to test this with more time, such as setting up 8 workers mining and letting them mine for a minute and counting the minerals that they've mined rather than going by the income tab) There is an unexpected dip in the curve at 24 workers, and I'm not really sure what caused this or if I just read the data wrong (even after going back to double check)... This curve is much closer to what I had in mind. With the new layout, 8 workers is ideal saturation, but 16 is close to ideal. Past that, each additional worker is more effective than it was with the standard mineral layout, since they weren't worth it before. However, since 8 workers is ideal saturation, you will almost always be rewarded for being on more bases than your opponent (exemplified by the linear line when you have enough bases to have all your workers mining on close patches). What do you think? EDIT: Some issues could arise with terran being able to lift off their bases to move closer as they mine out the minerals, but this can always be prevented with vespene gas placement or doodads. | ||
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