EPT[A] Starbow - Page 71
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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scen
Wales61 Posts
Spider mines need their health reduced, right now you can throw 3 of them into your oppoents army early game and you can barely kill one before it burrows. Late game theres so many it takes ages to get get through them even with detection. (20-30 hp would be nice) The stalker and marine range upgrade should just be removed or the range should be increased to +2, it doesn't really change the game at right and is just an annoying, expensive and worthless upgrade. I dont know if this was your intention but irradtate will literally kill whatever unit it hits (not super quickly but not slowly ethier) Dark swarm is fucking op as shit, it litterally makes your entire army invincible for ages. I don't know why you changed the ghost range, it wasn't causing any problems and made ghosts awesome units. Please change it back. The planetary fortress seriously discourages any kind of harrassment play. It's incredibly strong and if it has scv's repairing it then it won't die without your entire army attacking it. Lurkers are still far too weak for their cost, tech and build time. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5801 Posts
On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: Change the amount of minerals on the main and natural to what it was before, its confusing enough with the changes to the amount of workers you need and this just makes it even more complicated. Spider mines need their health reduced, right now you can throw 3 of them into your oppoents army early game and you can barely kill one before it burrows. Late game theres so many it takes ages to get get through them even with detection. (20-30 hp would be nice) The stalker and marine range upgrade should just be removed or the range should be increased to +2, it doesn't really change the game at right and is just an annoying, expensive and worthless upgrade. I dont know if this was your intention but irradtate will literally kill whatever unit it hits (not super quickly but not slowly ethier) Dark swarm is fucking op as shit, it litterally makes your entire army invincible for ages. I don't know why you changed the ghost range, it wasn't causing any problems and made ghosts awesome units. Please change it back. The planetary fortress seriously discourages any kind of harrassment play. It's incredibly strong and if it has scv's repairing it then it won't die without your entire army attacking it. Lurkers are still far too weak for their cost, tech and build time. Seriously, you just have to adapt to something deeper than unit A counters unit B type of thinking SC2 promotes. To combat Dark Swarm effectively you need to: - be aware of the Zerg army's position - have your army positioned forward so that you have enough room to back off - back off with your units whenever DS is cast, usually trying to bait the Zerg to cast it closer to his current position by poking with a small group of units - snipe Defilers (with stimmed Marines when you caught him off guard or simply with Vessels + Irradiate) - in late game you can either go mass Vessels+Irradiate or switch to mech - Tank splash + Spider Mines own units even under Swarm, Vultures are great at sniping stray Defilers too | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On September 08 2012 17:30 maybenexttime wrote: Seriously, you just have to adapt to something deeper than unit A counters unit B type of thinking SC2 promotes. To combat Dark Swarm effectively you need to: - be aware of the Zerg army's position - have your army positioned forward so that you have enough room to back off - back off with your units whenever DS is cast, usually trying to bait the Zerg to cast it closer to his current position by poking with a small group of units - snipe Defilers (with stimmed Marines when you caught him off guard or simply with Vessels + Irradiate) - in late game you can either go mass Vessels+Irradiate or switch to mech - Tank splash + Spider Mines own units even under Swarm, Vultures are great at sniping stray Defilers too you mean swarm guardians and not defilers right? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5801 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Scen: whats your reasoning for making marines and stalkers require a range upgrade? Roblin: as far as I know: because marines and dragoons have a range upgrade in broodwar. First of all, why do we have upgrades in the game? Some upgrades unlocks abilities and some gives different kind of bonuses. The game would still be playable without any upgrades, but by having them they create a larger branch of options players can choose from. When I make this mod, I am somewhat restricted by the knowledge people already have from Sc2/BW. If I throw in too crazy upgrades/abilities or something else that can´t be found in neither game, people often reacts negative to it. But I did not add range upgrads just because they were in BW. There must be more valid reasons too. Since Medics has the Shield ability now, which I personally enjoy, it overlapps a bit with Combat shield for marines. Both upgrades boost the life or protects. So I wanted another upgrade for the marine. I looked at the different aspects of the marine and I thought that having +1 range might fit better than Combat Shield. I added a +1 range upgrade for the Stalker mostly for PvP. You can choose to get better Stalkers, Warp tech, or use the gas for robotic/twilight council. The +1 range upgrade for Hydras is still in the game since it was already there. I am personally not a fan of +1 range upgrades actually. I like when upgrades has a distinct impact on the gameplay. Example +1 armor on Zerglings early makes them survive 3 zealot strikes instead of 2. Or +2 range upgrade for Dragoons makes them outrange bunkers etc. +1 range has an "invisible effect" on the game. Obviously its good to be able to shoot a bit further. But in comparision to other upgrades, range upgrade seems to have a small impact. For the most part, players always choose Hydra speed over Hydra range, Stimpack over Marine range. I am considering to add a +15 or 20 life upgrade for Hydras instead of their +1 range upg. Getting speed or getting extra life is both good, depending on if you want mobility on the map or just tougher but slower units. I would like to replace the Stalker & Marine upgrade with something else too. But hold your horses now, I will not do this! If I find anything better, I might consider it. Feel free to enlighten me, what impact on the game do +1 range upgrades actually have? When a designer plans out the gameplay of a game, the players suffer immensely because it's not really up to them to experiment, figure it out, and improvise; neither can they take things too far from the plan because the designers will patch it back to correspond with their vision. Thats an important and good point. Even thought I am sometimes accused for "designing the metagame and the strategies", my intentions are to create a broad game where players can use lots of methds to win. Yes, I know this sounds like cheesy talk. I want each race to have a branch of options to use from, and I want to create a solid platform for the game to let players develop the gameplay from. RIght now I don´t think the platform is complete. There are still lots of issues with the mod. But sometimes I get blind too, so a remainder like this is just refreshing for my skull. Change the amount of minerals on the main and natural to what it was before, its confusing enough with the changes to the amount of workers you need and this just makes it even more complicated. Right before my computer chrashed I uploaded a new patch with slightly different values for the economy, according to some new calculations. Everything is almost the same and I will present the numbers here when I get time to write it all down. I still stay true to 2 workers per mineral patch, since people are starting to get familiar with it. But now I am eager to finally play again  | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will soon send a new update for NA and some new maps too. | ||
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scen
Wales61 Posts
On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: I don't mind this too much, but honestly I'll leave it to Gossen to decide this one cause I'm not really sure what the mineral change is suppose to do. right now i have no idea how many probes to put on each base. On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: I do not like this idea, as with a lot of your other ideas down the thread. A lot of this stuff does NOT need rebalancing, you don't even win any of your games versus Gossen as terran and you want to say that spider mines are OP? Give me a break. You're just mad cause you lost with an all-in, it was an amazing game and I don't know why you are crying, you would have won if you had expanded -_-. I've beaten Gossen when hes been terran, no idea what that has to do with anything though. I've played alot more than 1 game vs T in this as well. On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: I don't see why more range is bad, +1 range is very nice on stalkers, marines and hydras, +2 is WAAAAAY too much, I don't think you understand the subtle power of the upgrade, give it time. You're right i don't understand it, so i stopped getting it and barely noticed. On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: Irradiate is a medium-powered killer. That's what it is; don't separate your army? lose it! what i meant was the whatever unit you irradiate will die after you seperate it from your army, was that itended. On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: No. It was fine in BW, its fine now.[/quote] This isn't BW. I really think it needs some kind of change. whether it cost more energy or some other solution. On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: I'm sure there was a reason, maybe just up the range of snipe? I'd rather it be more useful than cloak at something. Personally i found going mass ghost and trying to snipe obs/overseers really fun. It didn't seem op or without serious risk of losing all the ghosts. I'd like to know why they were changed. On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: The planetary fortress is an interesting unit, it DOES kill harassment play to some extensive, but you are giving up scans and calldowns! Not JUST that, if all your SCVs are repairing it, then not only if your enemy not making any money from that expansion, he is losing money from that expansion! Don't quote me on this, but if your opponent is doing such a thing, maybe run back with ranged and snipe the SCVs? when the scvs are repairing it its killing all your stuff (it does aoe you know) and then after its destroyed everything the stuff just goes back to mining. On September 08 2012 09:30 Laertes wrote: On September 08 2012 08:38 scen wrote: Dude those things are really strong! They DECIMATE mass, they are just weak to engagements out of position. Here's the deal with Starbow lurkers. You HAVE TO PLACE THEM BEFORE THE BATTLE STARTS, and you HAVE TO COVER THEIR RETREAT, if not, you are not using lurkers properly, lurkers are fine, they are an interesting unit, let's leave it at that. I have never seen a situation where they haven't sucked completely. even when the enemy doesn't have detection they are useless because you can just walk around them. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Long range comes by the cost of immobility, for the most part: Lurkers, Reavers, Siege tanks, Brood Lords, Carriers. They either are slow or stationary. Now they can use Snipe to outrange Lurkers for example. But they only have energy for a few shots at the time, which I think is fine. | ||
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scen
Wales61 Posts
They have long range but low damage unlike Lurkers, Reavers, Siege tanks, Brood Lords, Carriers. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Should Hydra speed and range upgrade be available at hatcery tech? Right now they require lair. Personally I think that will make it very hard for Protoss to gain any presence on the map early. Once Zerg gets the early speed upg he can outmicro zealots and stalkers very well, especially on creep. In BW there was no creep speed bonus and often Protoss did not push out until he had reached a decent army. He could not push out vs fast hydras, since Zealots would never get a hit! It will also make Zerg able to do more early hydra allins vs cannons etc. (Which they still can, if they go for banelings. ) If the lair tech upgrade is too late and too costly, as some people claim, I can instead lower the research time or the cost of it. Right now it takes 110 seconds to research and costs 150 minerals and 100 gas. Maybe it can take 80 seconds and cost 150/100. Ps. We will play on EU server at 20.00 central europan time. Thats 30 min from now. Feel free to join us! | ||
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Gben592
United Kingdom281 Posts
Great fun, I'll be on more :D | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2012 02:27 Kabel wrote: I am bringing the discussion here: Should Hydra speed and range upgrade be available at hatcery tech? Right now they require lair. Personally I think that will make it very hard for Protoss to gain any presence on the map early. Once Zerg gets the early speed upg he can outmicro zealots and stalkers very well, especially on creep. In BW there was no creep speed bonus and often Protoss did not push out until he had reached a decent army. He could not push out vs fast hydras, since Zealots would never get a hit! It will also make Zerg able to do more early hydra allins vs cannons etc. (Which they still can, if they go for banelings. ) If the lair tech upgrade is too late and too costly, as some people claim, I can instead lower the research time or the cost of it. Right now it takes 110 seconds to research and costs 150 minerals and 100 gas. Maybe it can take 80 seconds and cost 150/100. Ps. We will play on EU server at 20.00 central europan time. Thats 30 min from now. Feel free to join us! I'm all for buffing hydras. No one wants to play Z from my experience, even those who main it in SC2 (main gripe being slower larva production). I've just been playing TvP's or TvT's. That's just my limited experience with a small player pool though. How about EU? | ||
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