EPTActually most of units will deal 0,5dmg. Its lowest damage, not 1.
[A] Starbow - Page 57
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Actually most of units will deal 0,5dmg. Its lowest damage, not 1. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Im online in 5 minutes! | ||
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Don Pedro
Switzerland14 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
1. +1 carpace timing on lings vs tanks! 2. Zealots vs tank relation. With smart shoting they kill zealots fast already. No need to further nerf zealots imho. 3. We tested that already and it worked. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:07 Don Pedro wrote: Thanks Kabel for investing so much time in this amazing project! Great success with making this mod truly the game that sc2 should have been. Oh, Don Pedro, you flatter me! But remember that this is not complete yet. Still areas to improve! On August 13 2012 01:15 Danko__ wrote: I like 35/50 much more cause of few things: 1. +1 carpace timing on lings vs tanks! 2. Zealots vs tank relation. With smart shoting they kill zealots fast already. No need to further nerf zealots imho. 3. We tested that already and it worked. I agree! Just so much extra work to get this to work again T_T | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I assume that Zerg players at master & diamond level are used to injecting every 40 seconds. To screw up that rhytm by increasing it to +60 seconds, will cause frustration. After all, people who plays this MOD uses knowledge & skills they are used to from SC2 or BW. If fundamental things in unit or ability controls are messed up, like Injecting larva timings, people will ragequit and call me faggot more often. If larvas spawn rate are decreased, and Inject is decreased too, will that be a concern for Zerg players? | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On August 13 2012 02:25 Danko__ wrote: I dont think people are really that sensitive about these timings. Also im not saying thats bad they spawn every 15sec. Its just personal preference. But i have to say with old 8mins per trip and 20 or even 22 larvae spawn it felt much more BW-esque imho. You had to manage larvaes, not money, at least i feel that way. I always end up with lots of stacked larvaes now. I agree. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On August 13 2012 02:11 Kabel wrote: By the way Danko, regarding larvas. You say they spawn to often from hatcheries. I use the standard SC2 values of 15 seconds per larva. If I decrease that, to lets say, 20 seconds per larva, I also must decrease the spawn time of Inject. If we assuem that the current ratio in efficency between Queens with Inject & Hatcheries is good, Inject must last longer than 40 seconds, otherwise it is much better than hatcheries. Perhaps set Inject duration to 60 seconds, if a larva is spawned every 20 seconds from hatcheries. We don´t want Inject to be too good again, neither let it be too bad either. And why is the Inject time a problem? I assume that Zerg players at master & diamond level are used to injecting every 40 seconds. To screw up that rhytm by increasing it to +60 seconds, will cause frustration. After all, people who plays this MOD uses knowledge & skills they are used to from SC2 or BW. If fundamental things in unit or ability controls are messed up, like Injecting larva timings, people will ragequit and call me faggot more often. If larvas spawn rate are decreased, and Inject is decreased too, will that be a concern for Zerg players? immediate concern: if this is done, doesn't that mean zerg will be way nerfed in the early game? if it is done then probe and SCV buildtime would have to be increased to keep the balance of economy. reason: SCV build time: 17 probe build time: 17 drone larvae production: 15 as we can see, currently zerg drone production is faster than probe or SCV production, however, I can explain the 2 second decrease and argue that zerg has roughly equal production compared to the others in early game. you see, zerg overlords also spend larvae, so every 9th larvae needs to be an overlord instead of a drone, thus the time to build 8 probes/scvs (without getting supplyblocked) is 17*8 = 136 seconds. and the time to build 8 drones (+an overlord to avoid supplyblock) is 15*9 = 135 seconds. almost identical. add to that the fact that zerg starts with 3 larvae and spend drones to build buildings, and that terran spends mining time to build buildings, it gets quite chaotic to find out what race is better at building workers. the only sure thing is that terran is worse than protoss (ignoring macro-mechanics other than building workers) if the larvae production was changed to 20 sec/larvae, then the drone production will be 20*9 = 180 for 8 drones, so to match this the probe and SCV production would have to be around 180/8 = 22.5 seconds, round to 22 or 23. furthermore, that change means that the zerg army is weakened by at least the cost of a macro-hatchery to keep up with the other races unit production, remember, 33% slower larvae spawnrate means 33% less army unless the player gets a macro hatchery. those 12 zerglings (300 minerals, equal to a hatchery) can do quite a bit of difference in early game. technically speaking there is nothing wrong with changing it this way, but please consider the question: is it a necessary change? it will require a ton of re-balancing if it is done. //Roblin edit: shouldn't do any major difference later in the game though. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The reason why can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=50#993 | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:21 Kabel wrote: Build time for all workers are right now 22 seconds in Starbow. The reason why can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=50#993 then for the love of god change it, why the hell does zerg have such a massive drone production advantage in the early game? remember, drone production is not limited by production time, it is limited by larvae spawn rate. edit: army stats will need to be tweaked though. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:25 Roblin wrote: then for the love of god change it, why the hell does zerg have such a massive drone production advantage in the early game? remember, drone production is not limited by production time, it is limited by larvae spawn rate. :D Give me a good value and I change it right away! And give me a good Inject value that adapts to the new larva spawn rate too! | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:26 Kabel wrote: :D Give me a good value and I change it right away! well, as mentioned in the semi-long post, the economy increase in the early game should be roughly equal around all races, for the sake of simplicity and avoiding many a headache for developer. so since it takes 22*8 = 176 seconds to build 8 probes or SCVs, we want a larvae spawnrate such that we get larvae for 8drones+1overlord (9 larvae) in roughly the same time. thus we should get 9 larvae in 176 seconds which corresponds to 1 larvae every 176/9=19.55555556 (note: this is not rounded to 7 decimals :D (edit: actually, appearently it is :S)) so 20 seconds seems pretty good. zergs will need to start getting an inbase macrohatch right after the natural though, to account for larvae production, I know thats what I'm going to do anyway! edit2: currently inject spawns 2.3333... larvae per minute, in percentages of a hatchery, that is (since 8/3 = 2.3333...) (8/3)/4=0.6666... which means 66.7% so to match this percantage in our new larvae spawn rate, that means we want (since 2/3 = 0.6666... and hatcheries spawn 60/20 = 3 larvae per minute) (2/3) * 3 = 2 inject larvae should spawn approximately 2 larvae per minute to be the same percentage increase as before. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
1. Zerg have much more spread econ. Workers most of the time are more efficent.. 2. Zerg is loosing workers on buildings. But still i wanted to suggest 20secs for hatcheries spawn rate.And larvae inject with 60sec timer for 2 larvae or 1 larvae every 30 (which may seem bit too hard, and not enough rewarding task). Oh, fuck you. Stop reading values from my head >.> | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:46 Danko__ wrote: Roblin you are missing a lot of things: 1. Zerg have much more spread econ. Workers most of the time are more efficent.. I can´t find the values I have written down regarding this. But the first worker is more efficent than the second worker, at the same mineral patch. This is because the second worker has to wait a couple of seconds before it starts mining. So having 8 workers at one base, and 8 workers at another base is better than having 16 workers at the same base. Is this really something we need to take in account when deciding the larva spawn rate? | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:46 Danko__ wrote: Roblin you are missing a lot of things: 1. Zerg have much more spread econ. Workers most of the time are more efficent.. 2. Zerg is loosing workers on buildings. But still i wanted to suggest 20secs for hatcheries spawn rate.And larvae inject with 60sec timer for 2 larvae or 1 larvae every 30 (which may seem bit too hard, and not enough rewarding task). Oh, fuck you. Stop reading values from my head >.> 1. what do you mean with spread econ? workers most of the time? 2. yes, indeed, the relevant amount of workers lost are: spawning pool hatchery extractor optional additional hatchery optional spine crawler (or 2) so technically speaking, we should want to have zerg be in the lead by about 3-5 drones approximately 4-6 minutes into the game, assuming that no building are built. taking this into account, we get that: (5*60)/22 = 13.636363 probes can be built in that time (4 minutes 30 seconds) lets say about 13.5. now lets say zerg should have 3 more drones at this time, that means drone production should be (since each drone also costs 1 8th additional larvae in overlords) (16.5+16.5/8)/5 = 3.7125 larvae per minute this is actually slightly different from the previous numbers, and this is how much: 60/3.7125 = 16.1616161... or roughly 16 seconds per larvae. and as for larvae inject, it should be (2/3)*3.7125= 2.475 larvae per minute, which means 1 larvae every 24.2424242... second, rounded to 2 larvae every 50 seconds. so thank you for your correction danko, the new values with this in mind is: hatchery: 1 larvae/16 seconds inject: 2 larvae/50 seconds edit: the math was wrong, at first I used 4-5 minutes, and that had slightly different values 3. *spooky voice* the math reads your miiiinnnnnddd ooooooOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOO On August 13 2012 06:06 Kabel wrote: I can´t find the values I have written down regarding this. But the first worker is more efficent than the second worker, at the same mineral patch. This is because the second worker has to wait a couple of seconds before it starts mining. So having 8 workers at one base, and 8 workers at another base is better than having 16 workers at the same base. Is this really something we need to take in account when deciding the larva spawn rate? not really, but math is fun! edit3: damn! now we don't take into account the fact that zerg starts with 3 larvae! you know what, fuck it, lets say the 3 starting larvae makes up for the fact that zerg needs a fewmore workers in early game. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
so thank you for your correction danko, the new values with this in mind is: hatchery: 1 larvae/16 seconds inject: 2 larvae/50 seconds You said earlier that larvas spawn at 15 seconds was a massive drone production advantage: then for the love of god change it, why the hell does zerg have such a massive drone production advantage in the early game? remember, drone production is not limited by production time, it is limited by larvae spawn rate. If the larvas spawns at 16 seconds instead of 15, and inject at 50 instaed of 45.. Seems kinda similar if you ask me..? | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On August 13 2012 06:24 Kabel wrote: You said earlier that larvas spawn at 15 seconds was a massive drone production advantage: If the larvas spawns at 16 seconds instead of 15, and inject at 50 instaed of 45.. Seems kinda similar if you ask me..? yea, I noticed that too, and I realized edit3: damn! now we don't take into account the fact that zerg starts with 3 larvae! you know what, fuck it, lets say the 3 starting larvae makes up for the fact that zerg needs a fewmore workers in early game. I now revert opinion back to hatchery: 20 seconds inject: 2 per 60 seconds andI will never ever change my mind again. today. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
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