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On September 11 2013 16:18 Xiphias wrote:
Well. We don't have to make blink stalkers useful vs mech at all, protoss as other tools for that.
But I do raise the same concern. It will be difficult to make a very mobile unit which is both not UP nor OP. Just look at the reaper. Too much speed/dps = OP, nerf it slightly and it suddenly almost becomes UP.
Yeh I mean the Reaper has now a special ability which means that late game it sucks vs normal units but is good vs immobile stuff like Lurkers, Tanks, buildings with its "mine-thing". This means that it (in theorey) can have a clear harass role late game. WIth the Stalker AOE suggestion, I am not so sure. How excactly will this unit be useful in situations where other units aren't usefull as well?
Reaper can do something no other terran mech units vs vs zerg late game --> harass bases with static defense.
An AOE stalker I guess can harass mineral lines, but can't storm/reaver drops do the same thing?
Why wouldn't an AOE Stalker than can harass be really good in battles and thus give protoss a big "a-move buff" (like it would be a "mini-collosus".)
Honestly there is just too many uncertainities here - Too many ways this won't work, and thus I believe we should just get the core game established for some time before we start experimenting with "creative stuff".
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Xiphias:
You know what's really a problem with reaper? It's basically first combat unit terran can build. You get your first production facility and you have access to it. No aditional tech, nothing. Vs unit like this, at that point of time you CAN'T be prepared.
Stalker concept:
Stalker would be mid game unit. Closer to vulture, or even closer to muta or banshee than to reaper. Static defences would work vs him basically like vs any other harassing unit (you need huge advantage to engage). Why would be stalker effective vs ever present speeding in pvz? That's the whole point of super fast attack speed with low damage. With stats like 5dmg, 0, 33 cd best way to deal damage would be standing still, and using blink to change position, instead of boring kiting you are forcing for half of units. Huge attack speed with projectile based attacks would cause moverkillwith fights at longer range,
Low hp (like 60/60) would make their role clear as harasser and second line support/dps.
Imho Adding 2 dragoons into game will be even worse choice than just adding bw one and scraping stalker, losing ability with so huge potential.
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I actually think we should focus on implementing the KISS method for now (Keep It Simple Stupid).
Make a clear simple baseline for how all units work with as few extra changes as possible.
All units follow the BW format for damage, with possibly one or two more damage types.
Stalkers get rebalanced first, then we try to see if they work better with Immortals or Dragoons.
We do something about Warpgates - Seriously, these things are at the core of every problem with Protoss balance.
All units gets the BW treatment for movement and attack delays.
We make sure the game is reasonably balanced while keeping things simple and streamlined. Complexity comes later down the line, but for now we standardize and simplify everything until we have a good gamestate. Then we open the flodgates by advertising it to more people. If the mod gets popular we will have a much larger samplepool to work with, and this allows more complex game mechanics.
PS. I really like the BW-damage tooltip that was shown, but is it possible to make it part of the unit statbar instead of in the commands section? Like, in the corner of the weapon icon, there is a small damage type indicator that also tells the damage stats when you hover over it.
EDIT: @Danko, thats basically my ideas for a Stalker taken to the extreme... And I like it.
A Vulture/Mutalisk counterpart for Protoss, thats great at the "local superiority" game, and a prossibly great harassment unit. The greatest strenght of these units isn't their harass (although it helps), its the fact that they can always choose where and when to fight. This gives immense strength to dynamic gameplay involving small groups of units trying to engage favorably, and not get caught out of position. In BW, both Terran and Zerg had great options for such units, but Protoss never had such a unit.
It could be great, or it could be horrible, but its worth testing.
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Low hp (like 60/60) would make their role clear as harasser and second line support/dps.
How do you know this?
In fact, i believe it would be the opposite. Harasser second or non existent.
Heavy damage dealer with tanks in front would be his primary role
Stalkers get rebalanced first, then we try to see if they work better with Immortals or Dragoons.
Why?
And how?
A much wiser choice, would be dragoon/immortal first, then in with stalker in the background to check him out.
Do you know how hard it would be to get him balanced. Even harder without the core range dealer of protoss
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EDIT: new patch up?
immortal damage values changed, he still move slow as hell
EDIT: there still some things which isnt correct, when should i point them out
The small patch I uploaded yesterday only dealt with some bugs. It also converted a few SC2 damage values into BW damage system. I also fixed so some more attacks deal full dmg vs shields. I did not change the Immortal damage.
Point them out whenever you want.
WIll next patch also attempt to balance Breed? Could use a (big) buff I believe.
Nerve Jammer is probably also a bit UP in most situations. Still usefull vs Lurkers and Tanks though, but I think it could benefit from an increased duration now that it also removes friendly attacks. I suggest a duration buff from 12 to 16-20 seconds.
One of the reasons I added Breed a while ago, was to give the Viper potential to move out of the deathball. Do something on its own. Make position matter: throw down eggs in enemy base at a good spot so enemy units do not kill them before they hatch. Throw them down as a flank when engaging an army. Throw them down on clumped up Tanks for friendly splash and so on. Realistic?
Ensnare and Abduct makes the Viper only function together with larger armies. Breed might be an unnecessary spell though. Maybe a buff. Maybe more exploration? Maybe something else instead.
I made Nerve Jammer affect all units due to avoid confusion in TvT. How can players tell whos Nerve Jammer is who?
Rumors claim that Blizzard has released some new kind of program that makes editing of models much easier. Maybe can we use that program and add teamcolor to the Nerve Jammer circle model. This would help to make Nerve jammers distinguishable from each other, Just need someone with the skilllzzzz to do it.
But yeah, the Nerve jammer in its current state might need a buff since it is generally not as good as before. But I will keep it like this a while longer, just because I want to see more games with it.
@Stalker/Immortal/Dragoon
I too think we should keep this simple.
1) Bring back Dragoon for the basic balance. MAYBE add Stalker as a Twilight unit. Depends on what it is suppose to do. But first Dragoon. Then potential Stalker.
2) Make Immortal / Stalker at Gateway together represent the Dragoon. Check out Hiders math on how this is possible to achieve. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=399#7966
The problem is that the damage values do not fit with the BW system.
Edit: Just to clarify, I intend to fix the basics before I move on to higher tech units and spells. My top concerns is now Stalker/Immortal/Dragoon.
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On September 11 2013 18:45 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Low hp (like 60/60) would make their role clear as harasser and second line support/dps.
How do you know this? In fact, i believe it would be the opposite. Harasser second or non existent. Heavy damage dealer with tanks in front would be his primary role
It would be a clear harassment unit due to lower cost and high mobility. The HP is just a way to make them bad in big fights.
Show nested quote +Stalkers get rebalanced first, then we try to see if they work better with Immortals or Dragoons. Why? And how? A much wiser choice, would be dragoon/immortal first, then in with stalker in the background to check him out. Do you know how hard it would be to get him balanced. Even harder without the core range dealer of protoss
The Dragoon and Immortal are basically interchangable at this point. They differ in the anti air, and Immortals being stronger, but thats about it.
The Stalker on the other hand is much more in flux, having a tough time finding the right role. If it gets a clear role and design choises, it would be much easier to determine what the main protoss ranged unit should loook like.
One of the big discussions here is if the Stalker should remain the basic anti air unit for Protoss or not - kind of important to know before doing anything else on the Immorgoon.
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But yeah, the Nerve jammer in its current state might need a buff since it is generally not as good.
No. I disagree here.
Not that nerv jammer should not be buffed but its the wrong time to balance this spell right now.
Right now in terran versus zerg, with matrix on medics. Do you realise how much this changes in favor of terran?
Before we look at spells like nerv jammer, we should get the matchups going first.
Right now i think tvz is imba, in favor of terran quite heavy actually.
Also ensnare on vipers i think is heavy imbalanced at the same time. What can terran do against it without resotration right now?
It reduces damage by 50% and slow 50%.
With consume, zerg can relie on this unit heavily atm, even favor this over darkswarm at hive.
There are many broken things atm. Clean thegame up before looking at other fancy spells like nerve jammer
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I have already stated that I intend to fix the core balance before I move on to higher tech spells or tech units. That is why I do not do anything with the Guardian, Devourer, Reaver, Storm, spells, or other later areas of the game where people point out flaws. My top priority is Stalker/Immortal/Dragoon. But I did reply that the Nerve Jammer and Breed are spells that I am aware might need a second look. But I do not intend to do that now.
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On September 11 2013 19:03 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +But yeah, the Nerve jammer in its current state might need a buff since it is generally not as good. No. I disagree here. Not that nerv jammer should not be buffed but its the wrong time to balance this spell right now. Right now in terran versus zerg, with matrix on medics. Do you realise how much this changes in favor of terran? Before we look at spells like nerv jammer, we should get the matchups going first. Right now i think tvz is imba, in favor of terran quite heavy actually. Also ensnare on vipers i think is heavy imbalanced at the same time. What can terran do against it without resotration right now? It reduces damage by 50% and slow 50%. With consume, zerg can relie on this unit heavily atm, even favor this over darkswarm at hive. There are many broken things atm. Clean thegame up before looking at other fancy spells like nerve jammer
Yes mutalisks need either a moving shot a small range buff to get BW balance. Then we can buff NJ.
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Yes mutalisks need either a moving shot a small range buff to get BW balance. Then we can buff NJ.
I disagree.
With muta resemble bw muta, we have matrix on medic. Nerve jammer on scienve vessel.
Ensnare on viper, and abduct.
Marines 45 hp.
Besides, why do u wanna buff NJ?
Dont you feel zerg is kinda bad against this spell.
What can zerg do? You need air to kill it right?
And kabel might want it to not effect friendly units. All i see is broken stuff
One of the big discussions here is if the Stalker should remain the basic anti air unit for Protoss or not - kind of important to know before doing anything else on the Immorgoon.
No it aint. Its more in the line if it is even possible to have dragoon/immortal without AA
It would be a clear harassment unit due to lower cost and high mobility. The HP is just a way to make them bad in big fights.
Iam assuming lower hp for higher dps. If enemy cant reach them, its hard to stop their damage.
I see no reason they would be bad in big battles
More BW value of units and buildings
PROTOSS:
Reaver, range 8, 200minerals, 100gas
warpprism, 200 minerals
stargate 150/150 min/gas
While u are at it, remove the radius from reaver upgrade(?)
Robotic 200/200
Robotic bay, 150/100 min/gas
dragoon/immortal range 150/150 min/gas, i know its not set yet. Hard to maybe do thisnow
Archon attackspeed is wrong, should be lower than zealot cooldown 20
TERRAN:
Scienvessel 100/225 min/gas
irridate upgrade: 200/200 min/gas
emp upgrade: 200/200 upg
Dropship 100/100 min/gas
Viking: 250/125 min/Gas <- requires armory and techlab on starport
armory: 100/50 min/gas
ZERG:
Viper 100/100 min/gas
Lurker aspect 200/200 min/gas 120BT
Ventral sac (overlord drop) 200/200 min/gas 160BT
Spire: 200/150 min/gas
Ultralisk base dmg: 20
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I would love to see breed buffed / replaced. I feel that Vipers are a bit "naked" with only ensnare and abduct.
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I discovered something crazy about marines vs mutas.
If you have a perfect stack of mutas, marines will automatically target fire the weakest mutalisk.
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On September 12 2013 01:20 Xiphias wrote:
Terran OP!
We do not have perfect stacking in the current patch.
But!!! Because mutas flew in formation and rarely changed places, if you kept attacking from the same angle, the furthest mutalisk towards that angle will constantly take damage from marine fire.
The air rework will be so fun !
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*accidental double post sorry
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Exactly what Zaphod says. Low hp would make them prone to sniping. Also, they are supposed to have some uses beside harassement. Imho they should be comparable in efficency as support unit to dragoons or even maybe slightly better but at cost of durability. 125/50 20dmg ~180 effective hp goon will always be much better combat unit than 100/50 low burst,high dps, 120 effective hp stalker.
And its much easier to keep closer to bw balance. Just give toss BW goon (i would prefer immortal model though, just bw stats) and add stalker as midgame unit.
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Here's a game me (Stana) and FantasyGG played today. It has a bit of everything. Defilers, guardians, carriers, vipers, dt drops. You name it. Oh, and it's 47 minutes -_-.
The game.
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Just give toss BW goon (i would prefer immortal model though, just bw stats) and add stalker as midgame unit.
The immortal is cool, i give you that.
But lets not forget the dragoon has no back, dec made immortal not turn his body just like the dragoon, but he still have to turn his firecannons. Which the dragoon dont have to.
What about if dragoonlike unit arrives, get the dragoon in but do some cool remodeling.
I would hate to miss his none-firecannon turn.
btw
doominator or dec, you are americans so give me a pm
if u wanna play starbow
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On September 12 2013 10:44 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Just give toss BW goon (i would prefer immortal model though, just bw stats) and add stalker as midgame unit. The immortal is cool, i give you that. But lets not forget the dragoon has no back, dec made immortal not turn his body just like the dragoon, but he still have to turn his firecannons. Which the dragoon dont have to. What about if dragoonlike unit arrives, get the dragoon in but do some cool remodeling. I would hate to miss his none-firecannon turn. btw doominator or dec, you are americans so give me a pm if u wanna play starbow
The immortal automatically tracks enemy units silly. When kiting, the immortal should NOT have to actually turn his turret unless you specifically target a unit he is not aiming at.
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The immortal automatically tracks enemy units silly. When kiting, the immortal should NOT have to actually turn his turret unless you specifically target a unit he is not aiming at.
When we played around in unit tester, he sometimes turn his firecannon the way he is walking.
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EPT
