EPT[A] Starbow - Page 405
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/c2lATLe.png) 35 data points for Starbow, only 4 for Brood War (but they match with my earlier threads' results, imagine them as slight arcs instead of straight lines) Both SC2BW and Starbow have a lower max income rate than BW. The discrepancy is there with 9 patches as well. 55 workers SC2BW: 5376 minerals in 5 minutes. 55 workers SC2BW: 5431 minerals in 5 minutes. 3+/patch saturation BW: 6380 minerals in 5 minutes. No idea how this occurs. Maybe BW workers are just extra stupid in lower numbers? The only difference at a high number of workers is that BW workers will patiently wait in line to mine if there are already 2+ workers in queue for the mineral patch. So you can reach maximum income in BW already at 3 workers per patch (if you wait for them to settle down and stop wandering). In SC2BW they keep wandering at all saturations. To make sure I tried a run with 100+ workers in Starbow. The difference between 55 workers and 100 was only about 100 minerals per minute. So it definitely flattens out at a lower number than BW. Try lowering the time workers spend mining the mineral patch slightly and see what happens. I'll re-do the test. The only other explanation I can think of is that there might exist a slight built in delay before a worker can start mining a mineral field in SC2. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Tomorrow will I adjust the remaining ones. @Reaver Reavers with range 8 in the SC2 engine are super easily sniped by especially Hydras. Hydras are smart, more swift, its easy to select them, they are more clumped compared to BW and their fire is more concentrated into a smaller area. Bang. Dead Reaver. It feels way easier to snipe a Reaver now than it did in BW. Just move towards it and snipe it. The Reaver barely gets away in time after it shoots a shot and is loaded into a Warp Prism, even if it shoots from maxium range (8) vs Hydras with 5 range who is moving towards the Reaver. The Reaver also has a disadvantage now because it adds a visible marker on the targeted enemy unit. To compensate for that, it has a bit longer range. I can try to upload a test map with Reaver range 8 so can you try how it feels vs stimmed Marines, Hydras, Stalkers and other fast moving ranged units. @Viking I don´t consider this a Valkyre. It is merely a faster but slightly more expensive Viking with a splash attack. The current version may ofc not be balanced in terms of stats. But making it 100% Valkyre will not be good either IMO. Valkyres rarely saw play in TvT or TvP. It will probably be the same here. Vikings do see some play at least in all match-ups since they are still quite important vs single target air units. (Warp prism, Sentinel, Scout, Dropship, Banshee, Mutalisks, and other Vikings in TvT battles for air control.) But I will look closer into this later on and see what we can do with this unit. The core balance is finally getting established, which allows us to move on to fix "new" units like the Viking etc. @Economy My knowledge of the BW economy is not deep enough, so I can not comment on your data nor answear your question, Lalush. Maybe December can help to shed some light on this? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
That is quite speedy "tapering" off of eco at 16 workers, so yeah the third worker in BW must be smarter in some shape or form while the second worker appears to be very close to BW functionality. Xiphias is the guy who has been testing Eco the most, but he hasn't been able to play or test anything lately. It is quite easy to open a map and change a slight thing. I'll post the basic steps real quick how to modify mining time. This is assuming you are completely new to map editing and modding. The easiest way for you to test a slightly lower mining time eco wise is open up the map editor. Create a new map->arcade map. Choose dependency, custom modify: add other, click the tab battle.net, login to EU. For source put Map/Mode Name, type in Starbow and hit go. Click the file Starbow HoTs Final. Click ok, ok. Use whatever texture set. Now you've got some sort of map with texture on the ground but nothing else. The left side will let you search for mineral fields, command center, and scv's to be placed upon the map. Using the data editor: Hit F7. This will bring up the data module. Across the top are various types of data, categorized into things like units, effects, behaviors. The plus icon will open a new type of data to look through. If behaviors isn't there, click the plus icon, Edit game data->behaviors. CLick the behaviors tab. Search for Minerals. You will see a Behavior called Minerals (Mineral Field). This sets up how mining time works. At the right you will see a field called Stats: Harvest Time You will also see a field called Stats: Return Delay. Both do what they sound like. You can fiddle with those easy enough. Should be easier than needing Kabel to slightly tweak these numbers and then republish each time you want to see the effects of them. If these steps are not sufficient enough I could easily make a vod or walk you through on skype or something for this quick process. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
@reaver The reaver is supoused to be weak with no support. In bw, he was easier to kill. 1) The a.i of the reaver is imrpoved drastically 2) Units clump more This combined, he already is better. Even if you see what unit he targets, though maybe someone abuse this in the future, so hard to tell now. His weakness is his super slowmovementspeed, it should not be easy for him to target a unit. Whenever he move he is vulnerable. With range 10, this neglects this. @viking Yes, the valkyrie has very little use. However, with reduced cost of viking. Faster burst, less weakness. Faster to get him out=No armory, no techlab In bw, he had to shoot six rockets, when he started to shoot his first one he needed to shoot six in a row. He could not move while doing this = weak to scourge attack, mutas. Micro was avaialbe against him. tvz meta, has been for very many years fast spire for zerg. Muta micro nerfed. All this combined, we do have a serious problem here. We havent even looked at his transform yet. For now, he already in a way resembles the valkyrie He is almost three times as powerful, and he can ruin tvz atm. Would it not be better to give him a nerf, to settle tvz more for now? I will edit my post of bw value with more stuff, if i see them. So look at it a last time before you do any changes. You didnt comment my post about changing stuff in the unit tester. Feel free to change stuff there, i will gladly try it. I would love to see some new abilities/tweak to units, to test them. Much better than 100% theory, and get it inside the game. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I agree with Kabel here. Keep the viking as it is for now and maybe adjust once the basic stats are set if needed. The viking is similar to, but not equal to the valkyrie. @ Dark Swarm. I understand the reason for nerfing the casting range, but I think range 3 was hitting it too hard with the nerf hammer. Range 3 = never getting a dark swarm off vs a very good terran opponent who target fires since it is lower than any terran unit. Even if they don't target fire it, then you need some very precise movements in order to cast it before all your lings are dead. I've tried it, and what usually happened was that I sent my lings in slightly in front (so it would not die), but then all the lings were dead before the swarm got casted. Maybe range 5, so it can "match" marines. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I agree with Kabel here. Keep the viking as it is for now and maybe adjust once the basic stats are set if needed Could you eloborate? Right now he own mutas, really hard. Tvz meta has been fast spire for many years. Why screw balance just for the sake of it? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 13 2013 22:39 Hider wrote: Guess this is the end of my immortal and stalker drops:-( It shouldnt have worked in the first place Everything were much cheaper for protoss early game. Warpprism quite alot faster BT, like 20ingame seconds, it also moves faster than it should 200/150 more expensive with slower BT for range and warpprism | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Upload Test map so we can try stuff I will ty to get one up tomorrow. There we can try Reaver range, Viking values, Dark swarm and so on. @Some comments on BW values Lurker den still costs 150/150 even if it is 200/200 for the upgrade in BW. It is a bit different in Sbow because the Lurker den is a structure. The Lurker transistion can be scouted by the opponent, it can be destroyed which means that Z must rebuild Hydra den + morph it into Lurker den before they can build more Lurkers, it can be built faster via the Queen's Nurturing Swarm - ability. Viper cost - This unit is arguably more powerful than Queens were in BW. I don´t think mimic the Queen cost is the right way to go. I think we just need to play more and then settle on a value that seems balanced and resonable for the strength of the unit. @Shield damage effect All units are intended to deal full dmg vs enemy shields. I have a few more to fix. Especially Baneling, Corsair, and Marauder flame attacks are tricky since they are splash attacks. December sent me instructions on how to do it. I will try to squeeze it in tomorrow when I have some free hours available. @Bug Spidermines. Three spidermines just hit a dragoon, it did only damage from one Can you upload the replay and the timing when this happend? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kaleidos
Italy172 Posts
I see you are planning to (re)introduce the goon as a core early game unit (to simplify balance and many other good reasons) and the stalker as a mid game unit to increase variety and micro potential. Following that, would not make sense to do something similar with the roach? Like having a lair tier roach, less focused on dps but beefier or with faster regen/burrow move speed/whatever seems good? I made a couple games and while the spell caster arsenal looks amazing, i kinda felt i had limited options on the ground in the mid game. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Its a work in progress still. In fact, we haven't really started with design yet. What we have focused on till now is the core part of the races (bw balance, bw stats). @Roach midgame unit Dont you think he can collapse in unit role with the hydralisk? What is important to me, iam not speaking on behalf of other now is, if you do a new unit or ability/spell, its good if the opponent have power against it in some sort. Unit micro, spell micro or just a good/decent unit against it. | ||
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Kaleidos
Italy172 Posts
On September 15 2013 18:34 Foxxan wrote: #kaleidos Its a work in progress still. In fact, we haven't really started with design yet. What we have focused on till now is the core part of the races (bw balance, bw stats). We have just now started with design, or not yet but very soon. @Roach midgame unit Dont you think he can collapse in unit role with the hydralisk? What is important to me, iam not speaking on behalf of other now is, if you do a new unit or ability/spell, its good if the opponent have power against it in some sort. Unit micro, spell micro or just a good/decent unit against it. Well Roach would still probably not hit air (a weakness to exploit ) and (with proper design) could force detection tools. There is potential for it to create interesting dynamics i guess, but i totally understand what kind of work is going on right now. Having just zerglings, hydras, and a mutation of those two could result to be a little predictable. Maybe just something to keep in mind for the future!  Btw an humble request. Would it be possibile to fix custom hotkeys? Some cannot be changed. If it's not too much work that would be good to have  | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
If zerg gets this, what would you suggest to give toss as semi/combat unit? Its really hard to get relationships done well. @roach I like the move while burrowed, could be great. Not hitting air, is to me kinda simple thing in weakness. What about a short-range unit around 2.5, can still hit air. What is his speciality? I would like to see a combat unit with harass potential. Zerg units are usually weak against aoe, all except ultralisk. So if he is improved in that area, good fighting unit against siegetanks, hightemplars, maybe reavers. What about other units like zealots, dragoons. Since zerglings and hydralisks are already very good against these units, maybe roach will be a bit worse. Just some fast thoughts. What is so hard is as i said good relationship across the board and good synergy with zerg units. @custom hotkeys Just to put this out, iam not a creator(i dont work in editor or stuff like that), iam a playertester and idea person. I agree though, the hotkeys are weird, i believe its a problem across the board and not easy to fix. | ||
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Kaleidos
Italy172 Posts
If zerg gets this, what would you suggest to give toss as semi/combat unit? If toss end up having both goon and stalker there is room to work on interactions right? @roach I like the move while burrowed, could be great. Not hitting air, is to me kinda simple thing in weakness. What about a short-range unit around 2.5, can still hit air. What is his speciality? I would like to see a combat unit with harass potential. Zerg units are usually weak against aoe, all except ultralisk. So if he is improved in that area, good fighting unit against siegetanks, hightemplars, maybe reavers. What about giving roach also a burrow charge ability? (like ultras in hots beta). While harassing would help reaching the target faster plus killing static detection . In battle that could help sniping crucial units and setting up flanks and better engagements. | ||
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