EPTHot patch plz.
[A] Starbow - Page 364
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
Hot patch plz. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Things are starting to settle down yes. All content in the game will most likely remain quite unchanged. (Not remove or replace units or spells etc) Its only about balancing it, find good match-up dynamics, make sure eveything has a role etc. Maybe settle on the pathing & economy, in case I do anything further with it. I will upload everything to all servers when I feel satisfied enough. #kabel Why u felt it did not feel good? In sc2bw, it feels great with the hydralisk and dragoon imo If all units have an attack point delay, it is easy to cancel the attack. For example, a Stalker shoots at an enemy unit. It takes 0.25-0.5 seconds before the shot is fired. So the Stalker must stand still, wait, then attack. If I micro fast as a ninja, it is easy to make units NOT attack at all. It means I must let my units stand still for ca 0.5 seconds, attack, micro again, stand still, attack, micro. It does not feel smooth. At least not the way I did it. I do however use this for the Immortal. But this is due to it having a very strong attack, and it also helps to seperate it more from the Stalker in terms of control - a lumbering powerful slow attack, compared to a swift and agile weaker attack. If December, or someone else, however comes up with a great system for this, with clear gameplay advantages, then I am willing to try it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 23 2013 06:14 Kabel wrote: The problem is not if its OP or UP. Rather if the Reaver is so dominant in what it does, so it is the "ultimate" unit for P vs ground. No need for Immortals, Archons or HTs if the Reaver is superior vs everything. That is what I think we must be careful about - make every unit has its usage. If that is the case atm, then something must be done. I am not certain it is so ultimate atm, due to it having different dmg vs different targets. But maybe I am wrong. And if I understand you correctly Hider, this is your concern. Yeh, I guess that is the fundamanetal design problem with reavers. In terms of balance, these are the problems; - It rapes low tier units too badly (need lower damage. preferable against armored units). - Comes too fast, and let's protoss dominate the game. Opponent can't really leave his base, because he can be kited all the way or just risk being reaver dropped in his main. - Warp prism speed is prob too fast atm., it makes it feel like a hero unit that can't die if toss just babysits it correctly. I feel like it just breaks the game against any composition except vs mech or an abduct heavy player. I would love to see it having a clear weakness against well microed mauruaders, tanks, lurkers etc, and lower damage vs armored units would help distingish how you use maurauder vs toss to how you use marines, and give a clear role to the immortal. 3 other unit unit/abilities "complaints" Archons - Very uninteresting unit IMO which has too similar advantages/disadvantages to the HT, and overlaps slightly too much with the immortal (I guess). IMO it needs a clear weakness. I suggested + massive damage to the banshee, as I believe that could add really interesting micro interactions, but then it also needs a weakness vs zerg. One could imagine that lurkers receive bonus damage vs massive, or maybe Breed could see some usage here if the breed units had twice the damage vs massive targets. Dark swarm - Could AOE radius be nerfed and then we could instead buff the movement speed of the defiler so it becomes better in small squads, rather than as a deathball unit? At last, what about Stasis? The only uncertainty with Stasis is whether or not an SV will EMP it before it land stasis. But can't we create more uncertainty with this ability? Not that this is the largest problem though, I think the 3 other units (reavers, archons, dark swarm) are much worse for gameplay. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Before we implement some type of BW economy, which likely could have lots of unintended consquences for balance, couldn't we try some kind of middle ground before? BW economy seems to work because it rewards the mobile race by letting them take bases faster and thus obtain better saturation, but it doesn't punish the immobile race for taking bases too slow too the same degree as Sbow econ does. On the other hand, I believe there can be some situations where the game will be too passive/turtly if the immobile race can sit on very few bases for the first 15-20 minutes. So I wonder, can't we create some type of middleway, where the immobile race has lower econ, but isn't as spread out/vulnerable as in the current Sbow econ? My idea is that we try to make "really easy" to take 3rds/4ths with only 4-5 mineral pathes + a geyser perhaps. This will make it possible for the immobile army to sit on 2.5/3.5 bases, while opening him self up to a bit of harass, but he won't risk just losing his whole army in an attempt to defend 4 bases with only 12-15 tanks. Thus, now the mech player can take spread him self out at the pace he wants to. If he feels like his unit count is too low, he takes the easy base, but if he likes his position, he will take the harder base (or both of them). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
It is a tricky thing to balance. Especially if we want other P units to be useful too. It does 100 dmg vs "medium" units like Hydra, Vulture etc 75 dmg vs armored and light. (3-shots to kill Lurker & Tank.) Costs 200/200. Upgrade costs 200/200 and gives more dmg + splash area. Anyway, lets play more tonight, see how it feels. Maybe the Warp Prism speed is too high, maybe the BT is too fast, maybe the damage is still too good, maybe the splash is insane now due to the normal sc2 pathing system we try. @Dark Swarm When it was on a flying unit, I wanted to encourage the use of harassment attacks, due to the caster having more mobility. Now when it is on the slow ground unit, it is mostly used as a deathball spell together with the main army. How come Defilers + Cracklings worked so well as harassment units in BW? Was it due to the maps being larger, so harder for the enemy to defend? Was it because deathball armies were so spread out over several screens, which made it hard to cover the entire Zerg deathball with Dark Swarms? If we want to encourage mobility on the Defiler, we can give it high movement speed while burrowed. The only problem is that Defilers can not burrow at all. I have written to the creator of the Defiler model. He says the Defiler can burrow. The model is suppose to have animations for that. But I have no idea how to get it to work. I don´t think XiA or December have been able to solve it either. (And they are gurus in the editor.) @Stasis Field Check out the latest version of Stasis Field. XiA gave me a helping hand a few days ago. @Archon Banshees do deal extra dmg vs massive. Archons deal 20 vs armored, 25 vs medium, 30 vs light. (Weaker vs Lurkers & Ultras for example) Compared to Immortals who deal 20 vs light, 30 vs medium, 40 vs armored. (Single target though) Ofc this might not be perfect yet. I am still doubtful about Storm. Should it be equally good against everything? Small radius, high dmg? Large radius, low dmg? Useless vs mech? @Economy I am doubtful to overthrow the economy system and replace it with a completely new one. Mainly because that would send me back 5 years in balance work. I would rather tweak what we have. - I can for example make mineral patches have 1500 minerals each. (Half of the mineral patches only have 1000 in each base.) - Maps ! ! ! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
In general, I believe the need for defenders advantage is somewhat overrated. However, there are two instances where I believe it in general will create better gameplay; 1) When it allows you to split up your defensive immobile units at several locations. This can be obtained by narrow passages quite efficiently so splash damage of HT's, reavers and tanks increases. 2) When it gives players a chance to survive, and thus make a comeback or a transition. I would argue that the high ground advantage adds nothing good to the game that can't be obtained otherwise by narrow pasasges. In some situations (map dependant) it actually reduces action and small army play as fast paced low tier untis can't attack each other. Instead (doesn't have to replace it though), I would like to see a new defensive advantage to terran, and I wouldn't mind seeing it combined with a new OC ability, since the OC lacks a bit of late game utility (it only has scan). To be more specific, I imagine something like this; - A wall that can block passages for a cost of 75-100 energy. - Takes 10 seconds to set up. - Similar HP as suply depots wall offs. - Lasts roughly 1 minute. What it will accomplish - If your under a lot of pressure as zerg you can use tranfuse, with protoss you can use chrono on cannons. This ability allows terran to have a defensive "last resort" ability when your close to dying. But it comes with a cost and only lasts 1 minute, so it won't drag the game on forever if your basically dead anyway. Instead, if you ahve some kind of tech comming up soon, this could increase the amount of macro-oriented back and fourth games we see. - New decision making/strategy. Saving up energy as terran has a real purpose now. - Allows terran players to transition from bio into mech much easier. This transition is IMO impossible atm, since you can't defend 4-5 bases with a mix of tanks and bio. But now you can plan your transition ahead, and start the transition when you have 300 energy on your orbitals. Unintended consquences - I only inted this to be a defensive oriented ability. I don't want to see it used to make timing attacks significantly stronger, thus the 10-second set up time. However, that may proove to not be enough. - It could confuse new players? Any other thoughts on uninteded consequences? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
How come Defilers + Cracklings worked so well as harassment units in BW? Was it due to the maps being larger, so harder for the enemy to defend? Was it because deathball armies were so spread out over several screens, which made it hard to cover the entire Zerg deathball with Dark Swarms? It was likely a combination of pathing and unit selection max. From watching BW vods attacking with a deathball against a defensive player, is close to impossible. I agree with making it faster while burrowed would be preferred. However, would a +0.25 movement speed (in normal mode) look too stupid? It might not be enough, but it could take it in the right direction. I am doubtful to overthrow the economy system and replace it with a completely new one. Mainly because that would send me back 5 years in balance work. I would rather tweak what we have. - I can for example make mineral patches have 1500 minerals each. (Half of the mineral patches only have 1000 in each base.) - Maps ! ! ! Yeh I am also just suggesting map tweaks. Could we try my idea on maybe 1 or 2 maps? It does 100 dmg vs "medium" units like Hydra, Vulture etc 75 dmg vs armored and light. (3-shots to kill Lurker & Tank.) Costs 200/200. Upgrade costs 200/200 and gives more dmg + splash area. Looks alot better now definitely. Not sure if completely enough, but let's see. I am still doubtful about Storm. Should it be equally good against everything? Small radius, high dmg? Large radius, low dmg? Useless vs mech? Storm should IMO be better vs armored than vs light/normal combined with reaver being weaker vs armored than other stuff. IMO this is just such a clean solution, because then we have the two tier 3 AOE units with different weakness's/strenghts, and the units that comes from same tech have different advantages/weakness's. Robo facility; Immortal, tier 2 = good vs armored. Reaver, tier 3 = bad vs armored. Templar tech; HT with storm, tier 3= Good vs armored. Archon, tier 2.5 = Bad vs armored units. DT, tier 2.5 = harass unit, good without detection. I really don't see how this set-up can go totally wrong? I think this completly solves a potential "domination" problem, and it adds more micro into the game as you need a mix of several units to maximize your winning-probabilities. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Sounds like a reasonable spell. But I don´t see why it is necessary, or why it adds so much better gameplay. (In the current context of Starbow) Does not Terran have good defensive tools already? Siege tanks, Spider mines, PF, Bunkers. It might not be in the same class as P or Z, where they have a temporary defensive spell that requires energy.. Or well, maybe PF is like that Is it important that Terran has a reason to save energy on his Orbitals? Which he kinda has already, since if he has no energy, the threat from cloaked units are larger in Starbow than from SC2: DT, Arbiter, Lurker, Banelings, Burrowed moving Zerg units, Spider mines, Banshees, cloaked Ghosts with Shock vs Tanks, or cheaper Nukes. - Allows terran players to transition from bio into mech much easier. This transition is IMO impossible atm, since you can't defend 4-5 bases with a mix of tanks and bio. But now you can plan your transition ahead, and start the transition when you have 300 energy on your orbitals. Impossible? What do you base this on? The two TvPs vs Stana you played 2 days ago? Or have you tried any more bio vs Protoss games? If it is so impossible as you claim, then there might be balance or map problems. @Dark Swarm/Defiler Defiler might need a small speed boost yes. If a unit gains too much speed bonus, it can easy look silly with the animations. But a 0.25-0.5 boost will work. But it also depends on if I manage to solve the burrowed movement at all. @Maps Yeh I am also just suggesting map tweaks. Could we try my idea on maybe 1 or 2 maps? Sure. Someone must make the maps. I am horrible at making maps. But if you make a map with your idea, or you manage to get someone to do it, I will surely give it a try. @Reaver/Immortal/Archon/Storm balance Yeah I think you do have a good point here. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 23 2013 20:32 Kabel wrote: @Defenders spell for Terran Sounds like a reasonable spell. But I don´t see why it is necessary, or why it adds so much better gameplay. (In the current context of Starbow) Does not Terran have good defensive tools already? Siege tanks, Spider mines, PF, Bunkers. It might not be in the same class as P or Z, where they have a temporary defensive spell that requires energy.. Or well, maybe PF is like that Is it important that Terran has a reason to save energy on his Orbitals? Which he kinda has already, since if he has no energy, the threat from cloaked units are larger in Starbow than from SC2: DT, Arbiter, Lurker, Banelings, Burrowed moving Zerg units, Spider mines, Banshees, cloaked Ghosts with Shock vs Tanks, or cheaper Nukes. Impossible? What do you base this on? The two TvPs vs Stana you played 2 days ago? Or have you tried any more bio vs Protoss games? If it is so impossible as you claim, then there might be balance or map problems. @Dark Swarm/Defiler Defiler might need a small speed boost yes. If a unit gains too much speed bonus, it can easy look silly with the animations. But a 0.25-0.5 boost will work. But it also depends on if I manage to solve the burrowed movement at all. @Maps Sure. Someone must make the maps. I am horrible at making maps. But if you make a map with your idea, or you manage to get someone to do it, I will surely give it a try. @Reaver/Immortal/Archon/Storm balance Yeah I think you do have a good point here. well it fulfills three needs; 1) some kind of alternative late game ability to scan for the OC. 2) A way to transition into mech from bio. 3) A way to secure 3rd's and 4ths without dying. Taking expos shouldn't be easy as mech, but too often I see mech players just die in the proces (rather than just get a bit behind). This will make it slightly easier to take expos faster if you save up energy for a little while. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Adding a completely new spell, with all that work it requires from me, must have a strong gameplay advantage, to make the effort worthwile. And I think the points you mention above can be fixed with just balance adjustements. (If necessary.) So I do not say your spell is bad, shit or anything like that. It might surely work. But at this point, I do not see the need for it. Or rather, the three needs you mention can be addressed via other solutions. (Maybe not number 1. But is that an important concern? Isn´t it always good to calldown SCVs and Supply, no matter if T takes his second or fifth base?) | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
Hider, you have some good idea's, but again, you jump on the IMBA-boat too quickly, suggesting changes that probably aren't needed (unnecessary changes are a waste of time, spending time implementing it, balancing it, playtesting it, hoping it does its intended job and not screw too much with other match-ups). Why wouldn't it work to send a squad of crackling/defiler's to an expo? has it been tried? and when you tried it, did you at least try to pull the enemy forces out of position with your main forces? why not drop it with an overlord like in BW, harder to snipe off, it's faster and can pass over terrain. About orbitals: i'd trade nexus for CC any day, extra orbitals are very useful but have you ever seen someone make an extra macro-nexus? Lategame utility of chrono is very small, while scans are the ultimate way of tracking armymovement and scouting transitions/expo's. Calldown supply is a free 100 minerals + no scv mining time lost and it's instant. With your suggestion it will be a hell to implement it without bugs, balance it and it might have as side-effect that lategame terran will make extra orbitals and block passageways whole the time over whole the map (might even be useful during battles) without being sure that it would actually fix the 'issue'. Rather than stating problems and suggesting unit fixes for it, why not make discussions about builds, try to think more about how to fix the problem with buildalterations/unitcomps/strategies given what we currently have in starbow and after playtesting that stuff thoroughly discussing it and playtesting it then suggest a change. Changing one unit can have a huge impact on multiple MU's and it takes a long time to see its effect, old strategies will be worse, new ones might be better and this will create a period of many buildorders where racebalance will appear to go up and down. A good example: Hots recently made one nerf to the hellbat and arguably the metagame has changed big time over the last few weeks (following the show META, 1 week terran claimed pvt was P favored due to no harrass possible anymore in earlygame, the show after that the same people said pvt was now terranfavored as they can go triple CC without being punished), and this is in a mass played game, meaning the metagame will change more rapidly than in starbow. So it pisses me off to see a list of changes suggested every fucking day, you cannot balance a game that gets adjusted too much. That said, there are exceptions where it's clear that a unit seems imbalanced by looking at its raw stats, but i do not believe there are units in the game currently that can be called imbalanced by just looking at their stats. And yes, I'm a hypocrite, my whineposts about vultures were probably not justified. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Check out the latest version of Stasis Field. XiA gave me a helping hand a few days ago. Whats different besides visauls? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
At this point in the development I do not want to throw in new spells or units. Or replace stuff. Rather will I try to balance the game around the content that we already have. It might not be perfect, and it will probably never be. Maybe the Dragoon would be more fun and lead to a better balance, compared to the Stalker + Immortal. Maybe I should have added spell X, Y and unit C instead. But I wanna get this as "good" as possible now. Make it playable. Make it fun. Do the last polishing with what we have. As Azelja said - its all about creating a system with set boundaries. Then it is up to the players to explore and do what they can within that system. So what we are doing now is to create the system. And the first part is done now - the puzzle pieces are choosen. Now we must just arrange them. When I "release" this, I aim to not make any further patches. At least not as I do now. We need to reach a game state where things look and feel ok enough. Match-ups feel balanced and dynamic. Room for many play styles and variation. Then lets see what happens with the game, in case more people play this. Maybe it turns out ok. Maybe it turns out to be really flawed.  Anyway, one day at a time. Here are some of the concerns I have: - Economy - Pathing - 2Gate too strong vs early Z? - Immortal/Reaver/Archon/HT advantages and disadvantages? - Viper with Abduct the ultimate unit vs P? (Can Abduct everything P can do) - PvT XiA will help me take care of the remaining bugs and visual improvements I can not solve. He thinks he will be done next week. I am currently looking at the BW numbers in details. Checking the production ratio between the races - build time, cost etc. Looking at stats, looking at relationships, (Shuttle vs Scourge, Dragoon vs Vulture, for example) and a lot of other stuff. Just as a comparison. Just as some kind of guideline to see how we have it in Starbow. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 23 2013 21:45 SolidSMD wrote: Why do you keep claiming that a mech transition is impossible? How many times have you tried it? what sort of transitions did you try? what timings did you try? what maps did you play on? were you behind? were you expanding too fast or too slow? were you too passive with the transition? was your transition too extreme? if you invest in upgrades for bio and try a complete transition to mech in a couple minutes then obviously it will be very fragile, this means you either add in vultures or tanks for a bio/mech army before transitioning completely. Hider, you have some good idea's, but again, you jump on the IMBA-boat too quickly, suggesting changes that probably aren't needed (unnecessary changes are a waste of time, spending time implementing it, balancing it, playtesting it, hoping it does its intended job and not screw too much with other match-ups). Why wouldn't it work to send a squad of crackling/defiler's to an expo? has it been tried? and when you tried it, did you at least try to pull the enemy forces out of position with your main forces? why not drop it with an overlord like in BW, harder to snipe off, it's faster and can pass over terrain. About orbitals: i'd trade nexus for CC any day, extra orbitals are very useful but have you ever seen someone make an extra macro-nexus? Lategame utility of chrono is very small, while scans are the ultimate way of tracking armymovement and scouting transitions/expo's. Calldown supply is a free 100 minerals + no scv mining time lost and it's instant. With your suggestion it will be a hell to implement it without bugs, balance it and it might have as side-effect that lategame terran will make extra orbitals and block passageways whole the time over whole the map (might even be useful during battles) without being sure that it would actually fix the 'issue'. Rather than stating problems and suggesting unit fixes for it, why not make discussions about builds, try to think more about how to fix the problem with buildalterations/unitcomps/strategies given what we currently have in starbow and after playtesting that stuff thoroughly discussing it and playtesting it then suggest a change. Changing one unit can have a huge impact on multiple MU's and it takes a long time to see its effect, old strategies will be worse, new ones might be better and this will create a period of many buildorders where racebalance will appear to go up and down. A good example: Hots recently made one nerf to the hellbat and arguably the metagame has changed big time over the last few weeks (following the show META, 1 week terran claimed pvt was P favored due to no harrass possible anymore in earlygame, the show after that the same people said pvt was now terranfavored as they can go triple CC without being punished), and this is in a mass played game, meaning the metagame will change more rapidly than in starbow. So it pisses me off to see a list of changes suggested every fucking day, you cannot balance a game that gets adjusted too much. That said, there are exceptions where it's clear that a unit seems imbalanced by looking at its raw stats, but i do not believe there are units in the game currently that can be called imbalanced by just looking at their stats. And yes, I'm a hypocrite, my whineposts about vultures were probably not justified. What build do you do when you transition into mech? You adds tanks right? How are you supposed to play with tanks while your transitining into mech? Here is the thing - You can only keep them as a deahball along with your bio units. In that proces your so weak since you need to defend multiple bases with an immobile medium cost effective deathball army. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Check out the latest version of Stasis Field. XiA gave me a helping hand a few days ago. Whats different besides visauls? It has a missile which is dodgeable. It has a short cast duration time. It is no longer a BAM INSTANT HIT YOUR ARMY IS FROZEN spell. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Also i wrote earlier we should wait with tweaks to aoe units like the high templar and reaver, sigetank etc after the pathing is more set, right now we have a pathing which may change rather soon again Hider, what u feel about the sc2 pathing we play with right now? got me sad to see you rly dont wanna change the economy I would argue that the high ground advantage adds nothing good to the game that can't be obtained otherwise by narrow pasasges. In some situations (map dependant) it actually reduces action and small army play as fast paced low tier untis can't attack each other I agree it reduces gameplay maybe a bit to much, its 50% misschance right now? You need a way bigger armee right now to even fight uphill Some tweaks i would like to this is what if you had one unit on the hill and now your misschance for all your units gets reduced? Or you have vision uphill and your chance to miss reduces alot? It would encourage abit more gameplay, the two players fight for having atleast one unit uphill. EDIT: i just went into unittester. Carrier cant use the micro he uses in bw and in sc2(they implemented the micro with hots) here is a video: Its tyler explaining in details, 11min long video he explains everything THe micro is what do the carrier fun to use! Also: in bw, ghost lockdown only worked on mechanical In scbow, it works on anyunit. So right now ghost counters everything. I dislike this alot Protoss goes reaver and hts, you make ghosts! easy! One last thing: the abduct, you changed it so it doesnt work vs massive units so it doesnt work on archons or carriers right now but it works on immortals Ok, i just went into tester again, i tried the arbiter its still almost instant. To powerful atm way to powerful -------- And dec likes the attacksystem in bw, gossen maybe talk to him further with him about it? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
got me sad to see you rly dont wanna change the economy Well my map tweak suggestion will be a middle ground between BW economy and Sbow economy. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
There are already some distinct differences which are no-brainers in term of tech. Immortal comes first, then reavers then archons. I also feel that reavers might come too fast and MIGHT be too powerful. I don't really see a problem in nerfing base dmg to 80 adn let the upgrade give it 110 (it should ignore armor). Also, make it 200/200 instead of 100/200. This is working within the "set bounds" and not trying to redesign anything. If immortals and archons are "boring..." well, so be it (imo). @ Not patching further after reliese. I think it will actually be most important to keep an eye at the game once it is "reliesed" and follow up with some rare balance patches, especially if more people start playing it. One of the main reasons balancing has been hard is because so few people are playing this mod imo. So, if we get more players, then, after some time, you really should look into patching now and again. Not too often. And only balance numbers. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 23 2013 22:45 Kabel wrote: It has a missile which is dodgeable. It has a short cast duration time. It is no longer a BAM INSTANT HIT YOUR ARMY IS FROZEN spell. oh i tested it with stana, and both of us couldn't notice anything different. Maybe the visuals needs a bit more work? Btw, what about the immortal? According Stana, the stlaker has a almost as much DPS vs armored units as the immortal. I think it could use a small buff if doesn't receive any type of ability. | ||
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