EPT[A] Starbow - Page 362
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 20 2013 04:34 Xiphias wrote: The pathing gives a natural defenders advantage to any player who meets an army which is a-moved into his since moving units slowly form a line. I like that. It makes it easier to come back even if you lose some engagements. I think it is the custom magic box size that makes it difficult to micro units, but I might be wrong. so it is the comeback u want? Isnt it unfair that it gives defendersadvantage for free? Even out in the middle of the map? | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
If you remove the Zerg speed bonus on creep, then you need to buff all their ground units to move ~20-30% faster (I don't remember what value Kabel currently has as the speed modifier in Starbow, I'm pretty sure it's less than SC2 though). Edit: From what I remember creep already provides regen for zerg units. I see nothing wrong with removing bonus speed as long as we will compensate it with base speed bonuses. Creep spread is already very important due to vision provided. Also faster units off creep could really encourage more action. So yeah, what Danko said. It's worth a try. @ Pathing If you can't see how objectively terrible the SC2 pathing is for gameplay compared to BW or the system we are working with, I don't know what to tell you. But no one in their right mind is going to go back to the SC2 pathing. @ Ensnare I agree with Hider, it should be a projectile like HotS Fungal. Much more fluid than a static visual indicator + delay, which is the same thing except easier and more boring to micro against. Outrunning a projectile has more excitement and tension than walking off of a dot. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
When you have a group of units that are clumped enough to activate the pathing (happens any time you break the magic box). If you click to retreat your units away from something in order to kite, your rear most units do not move as quickly away. Compare this to BW and SC2 where if you kite the rear units DO in fact move at full speed towards where you clicked. This is a real flaw of the pathing system we use. We went from .01x movement speed to .3x movement speed all the way up to .7x movement speed in order to smoothen this out and make there less of an effect. The more you smoothen this the stronger auto surround is. The formations the movement system makes are pretty boss but players not liking the movement system from sc2 (or even BW as Dirtybag is the case) is a real concern of mine. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
atleast come up with some arguments? Everyone can say stuff like you say, it doesnt add anything What make you think i cant look objectively on the sc2 pathing? You have come up with no arguments whatsoever. But no one in their right mind is going to go back to the SC2 pathing. Really? Me and Hider wanna go back to sc2pathing for example, and we are the better players around here at the same time, also i have played broodwar since it came out, in those years i played atleast around four years very active and took it seriously. And i liked the pathing there for example, but it was a different game with a different engine or how i should put it. You could actually micro in that pathing, here the micro is awfully bad and you should know this. We both dont think it fixes the problems some folks say they do, and at the same time it removes micro from both parts This sc2 engine works different All i have heard is that this new pathing fixes is 1)harder to autosurround 2)harder to a-move which gives defenders advantage 3)easier to use weakspots if someone is moving in a lead 4)Makes aoe worse -------------------------- To really understand sc2bow, its a must to look at the whole picture. Economysystem is an very importnat one, attacksystem is very important and microsystem(lets call it that) We wanna encourage gamplay always. Look at it objectively, according to smilezerg, he is a professional at that, learn form him Aoe attacks could be modified, should not be to hard if aoe attacks are to big, just adapt to the pathing and engine. How can it be easier to use the weakspots to your advantage if the pathing at the same time slows your units down? It removes micro at the same time, you have no hit and run at the same time(you had that in bw) If you want defendersadvantage, i dont understand how a cheap thing like this encourage it? Do you want defenders advantage for the guy that stands still? Even out on the map? Defenders advantage for me, is skill and decisionmaking, it should not come for free (Even though some things do that as your rallypoints are closer than your opponent, or creepspread for zerg which i hate) Putting up posiiton with your sigetanks, using simcity. Some staticdefence, using small narrow paths. Using choke points. Even out on the map you can position yourself to have "defenders advantage" But by standing there, not doing anything how do this encourage gameplay? Dont we want more micro battles? And about harder to autosurround, that might be true but only because your units block your own, so its not entirely true it is the pathing in this case, at the same time it makes it harder for the other guy to do micro How do these pathing really encourage gameplay? People who love defenders advantage, would love to have warpgates gone, would also love bw attacksystem back, iamcurious which people dont like the attacksystem, it adds so much tactical(?) gossen said some people didnt like it. @ Ensnare I agree with Hider, it should be a projectile like HotS Fungal. Much more fluid than a static visual indicator + delay, which is the same thing except easier and more boring to micro against. Outrunning a projectile has more excitement and tension than walking off of a dot How do you know this is more boring to micro against? You want an exact copy from the infestor in sc2? For me, that projectile is way to fast, doesnt make it fun to micro against it because you do "premicro", you run before he even casts it. You cant really "dodge" it as you say @ Ensnare I agree with Hider, it should be a projectile like HotS Fungal. Much more fluid than a static visual indicator + delay, which is the same thing except easier and more boring to micro against. Outrunning a projectile has more excitement and tension than walking off of a dot | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
As usual, I have a ton of stuff to do in the editor: fix bugs, improve stuff, make shit work as it should etc. Luckily for me, XiA will give me a helping hand with the editor, and do some work. <3 I will upload everything again when I have found some proper solutions. Maybe tomorrow. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 20 2013 21:55 Kabel wrote: I took down the Starbow maps yesterday from B.net, mainly beause I need to rework some map settings & other stuff with them, and it will take some time. Instead of doing something half-assed, I will do a large and proper fix to some problems. As usual, I have a ton of stuff to do in the editor: fix bugs, improve stuff, make shit work as it should etc. Luckily for me, XiA will give me a helping hand with the editor, and do some work. <3 I will upload everything again when I have found some proper solutions. Maybe tomorrow. can you give us a hint of stuff? Have you considdered doing the speed to normal? not -10% but 0%, neutral Economy changes for now? bw economy inc? THe pathing, you go with the dec pathing? Any thoughts about the attacksystem? People didnt like the bw attacksystem? you said you tried it but people disliked it? Have you thought about giving things a bigger thought otherthan some peoples opinions? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Made a pretty simple data based behavior for units so that if they are right next to another unit (aka clumped) and they are idle, they spread out a tiny bit at a time. With a higher than the pitifully small default formation diameter, they'd retain this formation during normal movement. It would let you have really powerful splash, but also let players purposefully clump up their units if they'd like. Not something I'm thinking YES this will save starbow, but it is interesting. General benefits of more spread out units as usual are things like longer battles, looks better etc. Another big reason why BW unit groups move so much less clumped is because when you click inside a magic box, they resist moving to where you clicked. I'm sort of trying to replicate this in a different way by just having idle units spread out a tiny bit. @Foxxan I would rebuild every unit from scratch myself if it meant having BW attack system. I assume you mean how units stand in place to do a whole attack before being able to move again. It fixes so many major flaws in how SC2 handles melee vs range (think why they had to introduce charge for zealots). Also, more microable battles. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
can you give us a hint of stuff? Have you considdered doing the speed to normal? not -10% but 0%, neutral I will let the game be at -10% global time reduction. I am looking at a method to do so. (I had this for months in the old Starbow file and IMO it feels much better.) Economy changes for now? bw economy inc? If someone can calculate a better economic system, with some clear gameplay advantages, then yes I might give it a try. Maybe December is looking at it? THe pathing, you go with the dec pathing? I will try the normal SC2 pathing for a while and see how it feels. Any thoughts about the attacksystem? People didnt like the bw attacksystem? you said you tried it but people disliked it? Not sure what you mean with the BW attack system. That units shall stand still for 0.5 seconds before they attack? I did try that on some units a while ago. I did not think it felt good. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 20 2013 22:39 decemberscalm wrote: I made a new kinda formation thingy ^^. Made a pretty simple data based behavior for units so that if they are right next to another unit (aka clumped) and they are idle, they spread out a tiny bit at a time. With a higher than the pitifully small default formation diameter, they'd retain this formation during normal movement. It would let you have really powerful splash, but also let players purposefully clump up their units if they'd like. Not something I'm thinking YES this will save starbow, but it is interesting. General benefits of more spread out units as usual are things like longer battles, looks better etc. Another big reason why BW unit groups move so much less clumped is because when you click inside a magic box, they resist moving to where you clicked. I'm sort of trying to replicate this in a different way by just having idle units spread out a tiny bit. @Foxxan I would rebuild every unit from scratch myself if it meant having BW attack system. I assume you mean how units stand in place to do a whole attack before being able to move again. It fixes so many major flaws in how SC2 handles melee vs range (think why they had to introduce charge for zealots). Also, more microable battles. #dec Ok cool man, well lets see how that feels Ye i meant that, ever since i tried sc2bw, it felt so cool (pathing aside now completely), i would actually i think love this (iam not 100%) but it seems it gives more taste to the game with a simple change like that and not only melee versus range, also range versus range, makes it more fun there to i believe. I can imagine it is much work since you have the editor but i will try to contribue to atleast give my ideas, i would have no problem with that, its easy worth it So dec, u know which economy system is gonna be introduced while we are at it? #kabel #kabel Not sure what you mean with the BW attack system. That units shall stand still for 0.5 seconds before they attack? I did try that on some units a while ago. I did not think it felt good. Ye excactly that (i think) dec know what i mean, he knows it fully When i played sc2bw, it felt great with the hydralisk, hard to look at dragoon it felt nice i believe but since the pathing makes a big cloud around it blocks the thoughts. Have you considdered making the units more similiar to them in sc2bw? Also, i like you try the sc2 pathing. You havent made any comment of my last comment the page before this one(the big one) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Anyway, here are some comments on the stuff you wrote: - AoE abilities & attacks might need to be adjusted yes. Lets see how the "normal" pathing system feels first. - Stasis Field and Ensare is being worked on atm. XiA is helping me rework them so they are not instant boring spells. - Creep spread. I do not agree it ruins the game. In SC2 it gives 30% bonus. Here it gives a set value of 0.5, which is very small. (12% for Hydras, 5% for Zerglings.) It only gives a small advantage to Zerg units, but still important enough to make Zerg want to bother spreading Creep. So far I do not think TvZ or PvZ seems to lack action. It seems possible to attack Z at many points during the game. - Immortal having two attack modes: This requires two models and an animation. Otherwise it will be hard for players to see what "mode" the Immortal is in. But the Immortal can surely be improved from what we have atm. - SC2 pathing. Yep, I will give it a try again so we all can see how it feels. - Economy. See post above. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Second, most important is to see you read it and it gets through and your ideas around it, a summarisation like you do now is much appreciated Third, about the immortal. Yes, people should be able to clearly see what mode he is in. Maybe even 4 sec to change mode or something so it matters, maybe even 10seconds, or 15. So i didnt get if you liked it or anything? "two models and an animation" = to much work? About statisfield, aslong as the arbiter have a slow animation for it it can be fine. Or an imrpovement from bw would actually be really nice to, even better even. Instant spells which is powerful (like ensnare, statis) has a habit to be a little to overpowered Well thats it for now, well i wish i could help with the editor but iam a complete noob with it otherwise i would surely help you. I cant really learn it atm, i wish i could. In the future i probably will. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The problem is that there is no transformation animation, nor two different Immortal models in the editor. (The Siege tank for example has two models: one in siege mode, one unsieged. And a nice animation when it shifts between the models.) To create new animations or new models is beyond my skill level. Because of that I think it is unrealistic to implement. (A while ago Kalevi suggested to make the Goliath have two modes it can shift between. But it was the same problem there: no models or no animation for it.) If a solution like that shall be implemented into the game, there must be a very very very strong reason why it would be good for the gameplay, so it is worth going through a lot of work to get it to work. @Help in the editor I know many of you would surely like to help me with the editor if you could. Luckily enough December and XiA helps me when they can. (They have helped me solved many tough problems.) But it is ofc important that you all discuss, evaluate and playtest the game. Bring ideas, bring criticism, bring feedback etc. That is a part of the process to make this MOD as good and fun as possible. And I am ofc glad and grateful that many of you still care about this project. The opposite would be that no one played it, nor visited this thread. So I do not complain that "I get too much feedback" or anything. Its just that sometimes it is hard to keep up due to real life stuff getting in the way. But I will aim to have it back up tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, with some improvements. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
I know you have spent alot of hours working on the current design, but it got some flaws . There is no point in a mode-switch if the switch is instant. Might as well give the marauder both weapons avaliable and balance from there. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
- Creep spread. I do not agree it ruins the game. In SC2 it gives 30% bonus. Here it gives a set value of 0.5, which is very small. (12% for Hydras, 5% for Zerglings.) It only gives a small advantage to Zerg units, but still important enough to make Zerg want to bother spreading Creep. So far I do not think TvZ or PvZ seems to lack action. It seems possible to attack Z at many points during the game. Hydra moves at 2.75 movement speed off creep (or something like that), and 3.25 on creep? Isn't that significantly more than 12%? Anyway, I believe the metagame in PvZ is something like this; Early game: Protoss can pressure. Early midgame: Zerg stabilizies with defensive hydra's. But doesn't have enough stuff to use them offensively. Midgame: Zerg can be aggressive with dropplay, lurkers, vipers, mutalisks. Lategame: Dno. I think we could consider to reduce lurker nest BT to make action start faster. Since we already increased lair time by 20 seconds, and since lurker rushes weren't op back then, I think we could make lurker nest build 20 seconds faster without any uninteded consequences. Instead, it will make zerg aggression begin a bit faster. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Dec is also working a lot on the pathing system to get something better. Also looking into eco. Point is, things are being done "behind the scenes"  Get Sbow up again soon tough | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Simply make a list of how we want units to behave in different situations and then try to achieve that with a few triggers to movement. I can start by mentioning a few of the issues raised in the discussion so far: No auto blobbing Spread out when moving longer distances No slowdown in movement responsivenes Decrease or remove auto surrounds Units move and attack inferior when you 1a to when microed | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
its pretty complicated just make units move in a formation.. @DirtyBag aka Foxxan But if i recall it for example in broodwar when you backed off your units clumped up when you moved them back and got stuck on each other around corners and tried to retreat in a long line? Im kinda cool with that.. you're gonna loose units retreating, period(and a bloody one) | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
The real challenge is the movement response (no units getting left behind immediately by triggered slows), especially when trying to make 1a less effective. Edit: Hey wait a sec. Why not have a really restrictive movement trigger that only cuts in after ~1 second of movement... Makes micro responsive, but large army movement more clumsy | ||
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