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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
I'd really like something substantial. The biggest problem before was that the nullifier was simply not worth getting, but also felt kinda bland and boring to use. It was kinda like, why don't I just buy another combat unit instead? I'd love a unit that can actually mix up Toss's playstyle. It doesn't even necessarily need to be a caster. Any major changes will of course will be post tournie. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On April 30 2013 17:24 Hider wrote: I like the activate-thing, as it was something I suggested myself to Kabel (IMO a great way of rewarding skill). However, stun is not my cup of tea (for same reason as fungal growth, it removes micro). Instead, I suggested an attack which would be alot stronger vs a big group of units rather than a small group of units (a deathball-killer). - Make the trap have a very very large radius (7 or so), but make the trap damage relatively low by "draining" just 15% of the units (that are inside the radius) HP. This will give it potential to do a ridcilous amount of total damage against a 50+ food army, but at the same time it will be quite forgiving as the 50+ army doesn't lose any units and it can go back (rather than continue with the attack) to regenerate shield or HP. Obviously the deathball army can just bring a detector with them and kill the trap, but even then the trap (givin it has +50HP) will manage to delay the deathball, and if the protoss player has fast reactions he will be able to activate it before it dies and thus do damage to the marines, zealots, hydras, lings or w/e unit that has a range below 7. So the trap won't be game-changing, rather it will be a skill-based way of making big armies less efficient. I like the mechanic of a flat 15% of unit hp damage. It's a pseudo splash that doesn't excessively punish low hp masses of units. It's also a psuedo area control. Couldn't you just kill everything with 7 stacked sentries though? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Major changes: Abaddon Blaze is now in the map pool. Also, Squares of Starbow should stop lagging people. Vestigial triggers were still in the map, causing the lag (two different pathing systems implemented a the same time). + Show Spoiler + Vultures no longer shoot from dropships Carrier cost fixed Pathing thought that lowered supply depots were moving, causing them to slow down while crossing Patched on NA and EU. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On May 01 2013 13:46 Chronopolis wrote: I like the mechanic of a flat 15% of unit hp damage. It's a pseudo splash that doesn't excessively punish low hp masses of units. It's also a psuedo area control. Couldn't you just kill everything with 7 stacked sentries though? Hmm that's a good point. It might need to be 15% of remaining HP in order to avoid that from happening. I imagine that each Nullifier has like 3-5 traps which you can plant over the map in strategical location, and then you can move the Nullifier to another location and use it for other purposes. That means trap-planning is both a mechanically challenge and rewards good decision making. That part is similar to vultures spider mines. But the activation-thing is another way of rewarding mechanics, and I would very much like to see it in Starbow as it seems quite unique (does anything come similar to an activation-trap?). Vultures no longer shoot from dropships Woah, that seemed balanced lol. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
Nullfiier abilites: finding abilties by elimination -flat buff abilities to groups of units are out -a flat splash damage spells seem out as well. -a motion locking spell is out as well (that would go on the sentry) ... Another approach is to look at the style of play we want to create, say for example trap protoss. What characteristics make a trap? High or medium damage that isn't immediately possibly to retaliate against. Can do lots of damage against unaware or unprepared opponents. Delaying pushes with stalkers seem to be the one case where protoss already has what we want (if the terran is out of position, they could trade a tank for a stalker or 2. But to me, this style screams "dts"! | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Zealot drop is not very effective, or at least, not seen much, and reaver drop is a bit late compared to the other races effective harass (lurker drop / mutalisk, Reapers (which come very early compared to the two other races)). Should the nullifier be some kind of "oracle" that can fly in and harass mineral-lines in addition of having spells to use later? I feel often very "in the dark" as a protoss player and observers are ... boring... (not saying they should be removed, but nice to be able to scout with something that can also do dmg...) | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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The_Overmind
United States20 Posts
Null Space (Trap): Playing on the trap idea the nullifier can set a trap (or 2 or 3) that cover a good area and provide vision. On activation it creates a zone of null space, draining energy, and causing damage over time for air and ground units. or The Null Space field could act like a large area shield. Essentially anything inside the null field would be unaffected by attacks or abilities that come from outside the field (but if you moved into the field you could attack them). Conversely anything inside the field could not effect a unit on the outside. (So it could be used on your units or on the enemy.) | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
http://drop.sc/329691 http://drop.sc/329692 http://drop.sc/329693 http://drop.sc/329694 More ideas, great! Also, we are 8 for the tournament atm!!! Vizza joined! There is still room for more since I want decemberscalm to cast and not play  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On May 02 2013 02:59 Chronopolis wrote: I think we have enough harrass for protoss. We don't need a oracle like harrasser. The nullifier has a lot of work to do (in generating a new playstyle) and it doesn't need to be a harrasser. Do you know what the problem with these harrass style units? They take a lot of skill to use. I don't like there's any one in this forum that can test whether corsair dt is viable. Which is why I implore you guys to practice and try those routes exhaustively or semi-exhaustively, if you haven't already. Assuming the Nullifier receives a well designed harass-ability. Out of curiousity, I wonder whether you think there are any drawbacks by giving protoss a lot of harassbased units? | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On May 02 2013 04:54 Hider wrote: Assuming the Nullifier receives a well designed harass-ability. Out of curiousity, I wonder whether you think there are any drawbacks by giving protoss a lot of harassbased units? I don't think it's bad, its just that I really want the Nullifier to open up another lane of playstyle, and believe that it would be impractical for it to do that AND be a harassing unit (ie. would do too much). But already, doesn't protoss have a decent harrasing arsenal with warp prism reaver, and corsair scout? Oh, didn't answer your question. If the harrass options call for the same type of defense, it's kinda bad because it becomes the corrupter response in WoL, where the response to one threat shuts them all down. However, if the optimal responses are different, it may be a considerable weapon for protoss. Think about how brutal and persistent muta versus lurker drop was, as long as zerg could deny scouting. The threat of this is that it's quite hard to pin down, whether the the defender has a fair chance to be able to scout and defend properly. Like for broodwar, I suppose protoss can scout in time, but the line is so fine that, it'd be really hard to ascertain that for sure. In the absence of better protoss players, I'd be apt to say zerg muta and lurker switching was too strong and difficult to scout. I'm not sure about drawbacks in the actual game though...Assuming it's well balanced, would giving protoss many harrassing options lead to a difference in the overall three races? Zerg = mobile but substantive armies, teran = small drops or planes, with a deathball or mech line, protoss = defensive race with a few death ball options, but relies on harrass to chip away at the opponent and set the stage to secure more bases, or a deathball attack. I wouldn't mind a race that's more invested in harrass, so long as that's not the only thing it can do, and the harrass units have differing utility in other situations. In others they have nuances that set them apart. Perhaps the nullifier is good on maps that have only a few chokes while the sentry is best on more open maps where opponents will attempt backstabs, etc. | ||
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The_Overmind
United States20 Posts
On May 02 2013 04:54 Hider wrote: Assuming the Nullifier receives a well designed harass-ability. Out of curiousity, I wonder whether you think there are any drawbacks by giving protoss a lot of harassbased units? I really don't think we need the sentry and the nullifier. Lets get some really good spells on the nullifier and go from there. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
Nullifier -weak attack, as strong as the bw wraith ground attack, or a bit stronger. (AtE) -Place nullspace ward (~50 energy) Ward cloaks after 1.5-2 seconds, provides vision of a small area (1 or 2 units larger than the vision giving by a broodwar mine) The ward is targetable/destroyable. Ward can be activated to produce a nullspace field which lasts n seconds. Unit inside the field cannot attack units outside, and vice versa. Movement is not hampered. In addition, enemy units take 15% of their current hp in damage upon the creation of the nullspace field. This consumes the ward immediately. Analysis and Commentary: The nullspace is like a combination of disruption web (prevents units inside from attacking) and dark swarm (protects units inside) combined, but made into a sphere, which lets units within the field attack and be attacked by each other freely. There are so many points to touch on: Tactical point 1: Map control. Protoss can hold vision of the map as long as the wards are not used. Instant 15% damage to all units in a radius. This should make you want to use it. The reason why the damaging effect was included, was without it, there was no much in the way of presence that the wards provided. The opponent wouldn't be afraid just to walk over with detection and mop up any wards. The only way you could threaten that army, is if you had your own army (abeit possibly smaller). The damage effect gives a strong incentive for the opponent to clear the wards. Think about spider mines in bw. As it turns out, the vision they provide is extremely important. But the protoss/zerg opponent would behave totally differently if the mines didn't activate and do damage. Tactical point 2: Use in large battle engagements. Zealots love this ability. The only thing that stops you from spamming this in battles, is that the ward takes a moment to cloak and be able to use it's ability. The opposing army can just kill it before you can get a field off. However, if you can get this ability off in the right position, be it by anticipating and manipulating the locations of battles, or by tanking with zealots until the ward can activate, it can easily change the tide of the battle. Just because you pull off a nullification field, doesn't mean that you'll win the battle, though. Think about failed engagements using dark swarm in brood war. Tactical point 3: (Some) Harass potential With it's weak attack, the nullfier can still kill off a couple workers and further serve to keep the opponent back. Of course, the corsair and scout are stronger in this suit, but, that's a gameplay decision. Tactical point 4: Broad interacting ability + affordable cost --> Misc. Usage. Since the tech isn't really difficult to obtain and the cost of a ward isn't astronomical, you can use them in other niche situations, such as protecting your probes from tanks sieging your base on high ground, vultures/lurkers killing your probes from outside your cannon's range, etc. Regarding the way it deals damage: ("deals 15% of remaining health in damage, to all units in the field") The 15% damage is a pseudo splash which differs from spider mines in that it doesn't excessively punish low hp units. (On the contrary, low hp units would recover their hp faster. You'd love to snag a few ultralisks and do around 60 damage to all of them.) One of the problems with balancing spider mines has been that "whatever splash ability you create against protoss, is probably even stronger against zerg". The 15% of remaining health makes the wards not so strong stacked in multiples, and also makes this damage part of the ability somewhat weaker in a straight up battle situation (when you factor in other types of splash). The lore image I get is a sickening unfamiliar shadow world that weakens metal and flesh, an ill effect that permeates indiscriminately through the thickest of armors. However, it won't kill you. Just as one gives up hope, they start to get used to the field. The only casualties in a null field are by the hand of the enemy. Concerns and comments: Because the energy cost is only 50, there is a danger of spamming protoss spamming the wards in a single engagement. To counteract, I suggest adding a 15 second cooldown to the ability. I don't like long cooldown on abilities (see ghost, that was awful). Have the cooldown be a large fraction of the duration of the nullspace field, so that a single nullifier can only cause two overlapping fields for a brief time. Note that if two nullspaces intersect each other, units in the area of intersection can attack and be attacked by units in both fields. How splash damage is going to work is undetermined. It has been decided that we don't want lurkers being able to splash into the field. In general, you won't be able to physically order a unit to attack, so a reaver won't fire at a zealot inside the field even if you target fire. Excitingly, there is some room for counterplay. Spider mines are particularly good against null space fields, considering the following: A spider mine is planted outside the nullspace field. A stalker within the field triggers the mine, but the stalkers can't shoot the mine as it rushes into the field and detonates. A reaver fires a scarab at a zealot outside the field. The zealot runs into the field. The scarab follows the zealot and detonates, doing terrible terrible damage, while the reaver stays relatively safe. The reverse is also possible, and is very similiar: you can place your own reavers in a nullspace, and drag you own scarabs into the enemy. How spells work or don't work in a nullspace has not been determined either. The most intuitive and wholesome implementation would be spells casted from inside the nullspace cannot target any point of the ground or units outside of the field. Casting an aoe on the edge of the field and splashing units inside may be ok though. The case with nukes should also be handled: casting a nullspace over where the nuke is going to land will restrict the damage to just within the field. Likewise, casting a nullspace to the side of the where the nuke is going to land, protects any units or building(? undetermined). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On May 02 2013 14:56 Chronopolis wrote: Ward can be activated to produce a nullspace field which lasts n seconds. Unit inside the field cannot attack units outside, and vice versa. Movement is not hampered. In addition, enemy units take 15% of their current hp in damage upon the creation of the nullspace field. This consumes the ward immediately. Dec mentioned that you can either "explode" the "mine" (15% dmg thing) or create the nullspace field. Am I misunderstanding? Good idea overall. I would like to see comments from all of you on this one. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Also what is the AOE of the ward? I feel like it needs to be large in order to be useful vs zerg (or terran bio assuming that becomes somewhat viable one day). | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
An air unit on Robotics Facility, should be ground units, except warp prism. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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