EPT[A] Starbow - Page 260
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On April 29 2013 09:22 FreeTossCZComentary wrote: Just idea guys... I am not gonna use it in my mod for I have enough units as it is, but maybe swarmhost producing FLYING locust with only anti-air attack would be cool thing. :D Ooooh, cute. I actually had the same concept for a mini-project but the opposite. A swarm host that produces flying units that attack everything in a certain range. Would be a badass looking form of area control. Hydras are quite amazing at their anti air role so I'm not sure we could justify putting it in x.x. Thanks for idea though! | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Btw we gotta play more! Whenever I come online nobody is out there! Edit: Removal of activation cost obviously. Not cost of staying cloaked. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
The future: 1. After the the tournament we plan to release a new patch (we'll look closely at the games from the tournament as well to make better decisions). With important changes to units, pathing (maybe) and some abilities. Also balance some stats if needed. 2. We will also be getting a Starbow campaign!!! Which will be awesome! Not sure when this will be done though. After 1+2 is done I will reach out to the general SC2 community (the campaign should serve as a "test-map" to make the transition easier) to get more players. I have been thinking about one thing lately and I would like feedback on that. While on the one hand it is important to get more players I don't think we should change certain aspects of the MOD just to get more players. If we can improve the MOD AND make it easier for SC2 players to understand Starbow, then sure. But I am always reluctant to introducing SC2 concepts just to add to the familiarity and not for game improvement. I think the Hellion is a good example of this, even though it was first introduced to add something new and exciting. New players might be more familiar with the hellion, but the vulture just surpasses the hellion in all aspects of unit-design. Any thoughts? | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Cool idea. But a lot of work. Please, more in bw style than sc2. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
They will be in the style the creator sees fit. We cannot influence that too much I think. Edit: Please upload your replays to the thread (using drop.sc or something similar) from recent games (after most recent patch) so me and Dec can watch and analyse. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On April 29 2013 14:53 Fishgle wrote: Why not sc2 style? The campaign missions in sc2 are 100% better designed than BW's terrible build a base, destroy a base repetitiveness I absolutely love how blizz gave rts a long time coming shake up for single player rts. HOTS was cool! But really not enough challenge, freedom, and depth compared to the destroy the enemy base missions of BW. To be fair to SC2, you it was more challenging in BW because macro and unit maneuvering was more intensive. You could 1a in either campaign. I've got a few ideas for missions. One idea: you'd start off with an aircraft task forces to deal damage and secure a landing. This would be the purely micro phase. Then you'd land a cc and some troops (harder or easier depending on how well you did), start building troops while friendly forces are also landing and starting to assault the enemy. Could be cool. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
The thing about HOTS campaign style missions is they take a long ass time to make, on top of the already substantial amount of time required to make a single destroy the base style mission. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The giant ancient zerg betraying you could easily have been a whole mission with interesting moments and great interactions - instead it was a short rehash of a D3 battle Following some of the events prior to WoL might make for a great campain, especially given the novels and fanfic taking place in this period. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Like stated before, next patch won't be out unitl after the toutnament, but we can start discussion now. I propose the following: Nullifier 50 hp / 150 shield. Movement speed 3 ish (fast) Range 5 or 6 Max 200 energy Attack: No damg (or almost none). Units attacked by the nullifier cannot use special ablities. Cloaked units become uncloaked, siege tanks unsiege, burrowed lurkers unburrow etc. Does not work on dt's? (they would become permanently uncloaked in that case, remember, the nullifier is not a detector) When attacking teh nullifier does not regenerate energy. Has a "do not attack" option (like the Ghost). Maybe even the attack should make it impossible for the other unit to attack (if you understand me). Spells: - The feedback of the scout. (feedback + AOE) cost 50 - 100 energy. - "Psionic Precepsion" gives up to three target (in a "clump") friendly units +3 range for 30 seconds. Cost 100 energy. Does not work on zealots (but should work on Archons and reavers ... OOOOH YEAH!) The nullifier CAN BE chornoboosted to regen energy 100% faster for the duration of the chornoboost (remember, chornoboost in SB is shorter than in SC2) Robo tech or Stargate tech? If stargate tech then I think tempest should be removed... Philosphy: - Fast but not too long range so it's not another tempest, it has to be protected. Better to boost own units than deal dmg to oppodnet, ht has storm and arbiter has stasis. No point with a "vortix". There is room for a third spell if anyone has any good suggestions. The attack is kinda a spell though since it has "special effects (tactics...)" and stops energy regen. Numbers can ofc be tweaked. Also, we need a unit cost. Thoughts? I also have a suggestion for the Ghost but I need a VOD to show. Dec is working on it. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
I think cost should be something like 75/150, and it fits robo tech nicely. This does however leave the Scout without much in the way of purpose or uniqueness (if it has no spells or abilities). I still think we should explore the idea I had a while back of giving the Scout a "lockon" ability, where its basic range is short (4-5), but it gains double range for additional hits on the same target, making it effective at sniping singe units, but horrible at large masses of air (like mutalisk) | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Scout still has the "scan sweep ish thing". And the scout is not a spellcaster in general tough, more a fighting unit imo... | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On April 29 2013 18:47 Xiphias wrote: Suggestions for new units for the next patch Like stated before, next patch won't be out unitl after the toutnament, but we can start discussion now. I propose the following: Nullifier 50 hp / 150 shield. Movement speed 3 ish (fast) Range 5 or 6 Max 200 energy Attack: No damg (or almost none). Units attacked by the nullifier cannot use special ablities. Cloaked units become uncloaked, siege tanks unsiege, burrowed lurkers unburrow etc. Does not work on dt's? (they would become permanently uncloaked in that case, remember, the nullifier is not a detector) When attacking teh nullifier does not regenerate energy. Has a "do not attack" option (like the Ghost). Maybe even the attack should make it impossible for the other unit to attack (if you understand me). I think this, "Maybe even the attack should make it impossible for the other unit to attack (if you understand me)", may be enough. I was very much in favor of this unit, however, at kabel not like it, because the task is superimposed with corsair graviton beam ability. Edit: Maybe nullifier attack should work only mechanic units, while graviton beam work on burrow units. In order to make a little different effects. ___________________________________________________________________________________________ All skills that take control of the units opponents, have a bad design. @Neural parassite I want propose a change to this ability: The controlled (affected) unit loses the ability to attack / use spells, but the unit can be moved. This is a great weakening, for this ability should be slightly enhanced: -Unlimited duration (the effect disappears if the player cancels the effect, or if the Infestor dies). -Using while burrow (it is always nice to see something innovative). -Good range (obviously a good casting distance, is always handy). In summary, this skill has the ability to disable an enemy unit, and it does so very cool. Now the 3 races, have a way to disable enemy units: Terran can use lockdown and nervejammer Protoss can use gravitonic beam and nullifier (normal attack) Zerg has infestor with new neural parassite. I like this. Thoughts?? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
We will not be designing the Campaigns ourselves but have received help from someone else. We will look thorugh it before it is published, however. Don't do this for anything besides your own pleasure. Even if you can get new sc2 players to play the campagin (chances are not, because people are in it for the multiplayer), then it doesn't solve anything. Players still need to learn a bunch of new timings, and for what cause? So that they can get good at a niche mod with no matchmaking system? Knowing what to do when you have vultures out, really isn't the problem here as that is quite intuitive. The cost-benfit still isn't there. New players might be more familiar with the hellion, but the vulture just surpasses the hellion in all aspects of unit-design. As I remember the only problem you had with hellions wiht mines was that they punished mistakes too much.. But if you watch pro-level games it happens close to 0% of the time that nonblueflame hellions build decides the game. Its true that in Starbow you can have more hellions relative to drones in the early game but that could have been fixed by increasing building time of hellions. Furthermore one must also remember that terrans can afford fewer hellions in Starbow, so opening with like 8 hellions would be quite an investment (allinsh), and probably not standard play. So I still think hellions with spider mines would be superior in any way over vultures from a unit design perspetive. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
But HideR, what do you think of the nullifier? @JohnnyZerg I think Kabel was right about the overlap with crossair though, (I did not concider that) and I generally dislike every race having similar abilities so making the Nullifier only disable abilities but let the units be able to attack might be just fine. Vikings should be a decent counter to the nullifier, so that gives them another role as well. Hmmm... maybe nullifiers attack forces vikings to land :D | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
I do want to see a new caster in the Robo. I don't think the version you posted, however, is quite right. An attack that causes Tanks to unsiege and Lurkers to unburrow? That just doesn't make any sense, not to mention would just turn out being incredibly annoying. I think a distinction needs to be made between abilities and spells, where abilities do not use energy, but spells do. The Nullifier should only prevent spellcasting, and should require a spell of its own to do so instead of just being a passive aspect of the attack. Feedback accomplishes this already in a single-target capacity. Perhaps give the Nullifier another ability that targets an area and drains energy from units in that area. Then we can play around with a third ability, like the +range or maybe something like Time Warp or Guardian Shield. Edit: Also, Chronoboost to regain energy is a terrible idea as well. There's no precedent for CB targeting a unit, nor does Chrono'ing a building with energy cause it to regen energy faster. It only speeds up production times. If Chrono were to be used on a unit, it should only be Carriers and Reavers, for obvious reasons. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
but there are some fundamental differences that can be learned in the campaign. I see many SC2 players, even at masters level, that try to go bio vs toss for example. I think that is way too complicated for something to handle for the campaign, and again, I don't really think people wanna spend time learn the game through a campaign. Her eis a funny little story; I once downloaded LOL (just to try it out), but after 5 minutes winutes with the tutorial I was like, fuck it, I don't really care about learning this game... I think you will get a similar reaction with a Starbow campaign. Basicall I wanna say to my friends, "hey wanna do a starbow a game?" Friend; "Sure, but what is different about that and Sc2." Me: Mentions 3 differences in 3 sentences that is relevant for that matchup. After that conversation the friend should be able to figure how to play a somewhat decent level of Starbow the first time he tries. I don't want my friend to ever once think; "What the hell am I goanna do here?". Rather I want him to feel that the core game is quite similar to sc2 (any difference that is not should be intuitive to figure out), but at the same time he should like wanting to play a lot more Starbow as it should be obvious that the mod has a lot more potential. Nullifier I don't know really about your suggestion, maybe because I have a difficult time imagining how it is used in various situations. For future "unit suggestions", I think it is neccesary that fundenmental questions gets answered; - What does this race (protoss) needs or what does it currently lack that we want more of. - How does this race reward skills in various situations (please explain how the various abilities will be used in the matchup). - If it encourages micro, does it reward split-second micro, or does it give the opponent a change to react/counter the ability/unit after it has been casted/set to attack? - Is this unit balanceable (or will it be too easy to use efficiently while too challenging to play against?). Does it break the game in any way? If you could answer these questions in depht it would be nice as I right now I just don't see the point in those abilities. | ||
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