EPTI've been talking to the maker of CD and Abaddon Blaze. I'll most likely end up using Abaddon Blaze with modifications to the ramps, it has better proportions and nicer asthetics.
[A] Starbow - Page 171
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
I've been talking to the maker of CD and Abaddon Blaze. I'll most likely end up using Abaddon Blaze with modifications to the ramps, it has better proportions and nicer asthetics. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:02 decemberscalm wrote: @Pura I've been talking to the maker of CD and Abaddon Blaze. I'll most likely end up using Abaddon Blaze with modifications to the ramps, it has better proportions and nicer asthetics. Awesome ^^ seems like this fits and looks better  Can't wait! One thing to note is that the author says that the BW dimensions and SC2 dimensions match 1:1. While that may be true, the pathing is so much better in SC2 that armies just end up getting places faster. That's why I think it should be slightly larger to compensate for that a bit. In reality, it probably won't make a difference, though.I think the mapper really has great sense, and I really like that he made those BW to SC2 comparisons with experiments. Definitely a worthy map. People just need to learn to play Starbow less like SC2 (macro, macro, macro, attack, repeat) and more like BW (macro, attack, simultaneously, different places, repeat). More small and constant fights. Regardless, I'm stoked. Let's try this! What kind of modifications to the ramps are you thinking to do? My only request is to please leave it non-forced cross positions. >< | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Is Starbow boring? The player base goes up and down. In periods there can be between 10-15 players on EU. At other times the number gets lower. I am not suprised by it. The constant development can scare away people. I know many consistant players have taken a break or left. And new players takes their place. Not everyone enjoy to play a "uncompleted" game, when there are so many other things to play... or do.. And those of you who still stick around and explore the game, suggest solutions, critize my changes and discuss and analys the game, I once again thank you! When I finally get the opening post together, I will write a nice credit list. Thou shall be honored ^^ I aim to complete Starbow before or during the winter holidays. The design for the races must be nailed. No question marks regarding what spells or units shall be in the game. It will instead be full focus on balance. The most important thing with this MOD is that it most be fun to play, fun to observe and fun to even think about! No matter how "good" the design is, the balance is, how good looking the players are, if players do not get a good time.. then all is in vain! Maybe 2013 will be the "Starbow year"? In the early january I plan to send this to Day-9, TL Attack, Husky etc and find other ways to advertise. Maybe is it good enough to get a stable player base on its own, with its own ranking system. Or maybe it dies. I am just curious to find out. But before that day, this MOD needs to be completed, playable, balanced and enjoyable. @Defenders advantage Some players ask me why it is important to have a strong defenders advantage. That only leads to long, boring turtle games. There is indeed a risk for long turtle games. If passivity is the optimal way to win the game, players will be passive. The trick is to find the golden path in between. What will happen if those criteria are fullfilled? - When both players have equal bases and equal army, the defender will generally win vs a deathball attack. - Its easy to control, secure and hold a expansion due to small ramps and choke points. - Having more expansions than the enemy provides players with an army advantage. If done right, I think this will lead to more harassment, more expanding and less deathball vs deathball fights that determines the game. But to avoid turtling, races must have methods to assault enemy bases. (Siege tanks, Dark Swarm etc) If those methods are too bad, then there is no good way to be effective when attacking. If so, the games might last forever : / @ New maps on NA and the high ground system For those of you who wonder, Decemberscalm has fixed a new high ground system that is being tried on NA. He has also found some new NA maps. The map pool for Starbow needs to be vitalized and I welcome all attempts and ideas for better maps. New maps and high ground system will be added to EU probably on sunday when the new patch is completed. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
A couple of days ago I wrote this. I will shed some more light on some of it. Feel free to discuss. + Show Spoiler + Here are the only design areas left that I consider to fix. So this is not stuff that WILL and MUST be added into the game. Its just stuff I look at. Since I am short on time, I will purely write it down without any deeper explanation. I will be back on sunday again. Feel free to discuss it. Protoss - Void Ray.. What role shall it have? How shall it work? - Nullifier - Protoss spells. What spells on what caster? - Dragoons instead of Stalkers. I do consider to bring back the Dragoon again for a couple of reasons. - Blink. If Dragoons are added, I consider to make Blink have short range and can NOT blink up or down cliffs. - Reavers. There are still some bugs about them. - Make Nexus produce observers. Observer tech is unlocked via an upgrade at Cybernetics core. (Yeah I know. This is the most controversial one. I have no time to explain why now. I'm in a hurry. But I have a couple of reasons I will share later.) Terran - Rework the way Spider mines work. - The line up of spells on the Ghost and Vessel. I want both casters to be useful. But I am not convinced that the current spells they hold is the ultimate way to go. - Energize on Medics? Replace it or rework it or let it remain as it is. - Combat shield. Is there room for another upgrade for Marines? Maybe make it do something else than just a pure +HP buff. Zerg - Broodlords and the way their current attack works. (They shoot a "normal" projectile, when they kill something broodlings are spawned from it.) - Frenzy. I will probably make frenzied units recieve more damage, so the spell gets a bit more interesting.. Maybe it can be casted on enemy units too? - Dark Swarm. There is a messy and confusing feeling about it, when I see it on the battlefield. I consider to make it only affect Zerg units. If so, it will obviously be nerfed in some other way to compensate for that huge advantage. - Void ray it a strong cheese option in PvT that can end the game very early. The only time it sees play in Starbow is when cheesing Terran or in super late game vs Battlecruisers or Carriers. It is not that useful otherwise. JohhnyZerg suggested to make it attack only buildings and air units.. I just fear it will feel very odd. "WTF can´t I shoot ground units???!" Maybe the Voidray needs a huge redesign.. Or maybe be removed.. O_o - Starbow is suppose to be the sequel to Brood War that Blizzard never created. The SC2BW-mod tries to recreate every aspect of BW. I try to use the best parts of SC2 to make "Brood War 2." (hubris!!!) With that in mind, I consider to bring back the Dragoon instead of the Stalker. Its mostly for visual purposes and for the feeling.. I thought that Immortal + Stalker were more interesting units than the Dragoon. But I failed to give them a proper place in the game. With only the Stalker left, maybe its time for the Dragoon to make a comeback.. If so, it must be balanced to fit in the game. A possible scenario: - Dragoons can be warped in.. (longer warp in time, more expensive overall?) - Warp Prism has lower radius of the warp in field, which means that not so many Dragoons can be warped in at the same time. (Maybe they take longer time to warp in too..) - Dragoons can blink but NOT up or down cliffs and probably have a shorter range. It is more of a combat ability. Rotate wounded Dragoons, capture units of guard, blink into combat.. Overall its a way to boost the micro potential of them.. - I am reworking the Nullifier a bit due to some flaws with it. I will present it on sunday hopefully. - Reavers are still a pain in the ***. Its too hard to make them work as in BW. Not even the SC2BW-mod has managed to recreate them. I still find new bugs : /. I consider to use Hunter seeker missile with the Scarab model as the Reaver attack. They cost 25 minerals to launch, can auto-attack, not attack units at other cliff levels.. I think the reaver needs to be adjusted in some way to fit into the game. Cause the current system is not good enough. - The scarab stops if the target dies. - Scarab moves through cliffs. - Scarab can not move up or down ramps Every attempt I make to fix it creates a new problem. >.< - Observers built at Nexus. This is a dirty thing. I generally do not like weird changes like this. But P seems to have 2 fundamental problems in the Starbow context: - P has a hard time to scout vs Z unless he pushes out with an army or goes for fast Corsairs. A lonely Zealot or Probe gets denied easily. (Same problem as in BW and in my opinion that was a bad thing..) T can scan, Z has overlords. - T has two cloaked threats vs P. Spider mines + Banshees. P "must" get robotics facility since observers are needed vs both of them. IF observers are moved to the Nexus, P would get acess to a richer tech tree in all match ups. P would not be tied to robotic facility in the same way. To unlock observers @ Nexus, an upgrade must be researched at the cyber core. It would compete with other important upgrades. Get Warp gate, Stalker range, Nexus Recall or observer tech? Four important choices that competes with time. In what order shall they be resarched? - Remove Snipe from Ghosts. EMP counters casters. Lockdown counters mechanical units. Snipe has the same targets as Irradiate. It just kills them instantly. The only thing I do not like with this is that Snipe is an "iconic" ability for Ghosts in SC2. I have no idea how to create this. Any manual available? I notice that some kind of buff is added and removed at the Vulture.. Its mostly important for Vultures + Corsairs. The latter is a complete mess right now when it fights vs mutalisks. Few corsairs can NOT engage many mutalisks, shoot, back away, shoot, back away etc... And I still have not found out how to fix it T_T | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I also am comming to think of starbow as the next patch for starcraft 1 rather than a mixing of sc2 and BW. Observer to nexus is a great idea. Zerg has so many early-game options and it makes FFE hard vs zerg (hydra bust, mutas, lurker contain, normal 3 base-respond, baneling bust (anyone tried that in starbow?) etc). Keep the reaver plz, but yeah, try to fix it as much as possible. Remove snipe sounds good. I will try to use voidray more vs terran early-game to see if it is too good. (should be frustrating or fun )Maybe just give crossair a normal splash instead of the fancy units-who-are-connecting splash since units do not tent do stack the same way in starbow. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Did you try the fix I suggested for it? Was there bugs with a regular ground mover that collides with units and buildings? @Snipe Its an anti High Templar option.Lurkers are not going to be sniped en masse any time soon, and generally sci vessels are just so recquired for TvZ you wouldn't see ghosts in that matchup anyways. @Moving Shot Time to play with stats! | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Yeah it was not flawless either. Unless I missunderstood something about the values.. But another problem is that the Scarab just stops as soon as the enemy dies. In a large combat, many of the reaver shots never hit the enemy army. If Reavers auto-shoot at Zerglings, they die before the scarab gets there.. Preferably the scarab would atleast move to the destinaton of the dead unit @Corsairs They have normal splash. Or what do you mean with units-that-are-connecting-splash? | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
-Please keep reaver somehow. >_< -I do not think you addressed feedback in your post, but regarding feedback, observers, and nullifier. I think you can put feedback on nullifier, observers still at robotics facility (not nexus), and SC2 hallucination on high templars. This gives Protoss some viability if they don't go straight robotics route, since they can just get hallucinated corsairs. It also gives more of a reason to get the nullifier (mid-game), when there are spellcasters to deal with. (Though, I still think high templars with forcefield/storm and dark archons with feedback/mind control would be fine. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17047802 ) -Frenzy is going to be nerfed, right? It needs some sort of risk to it. -Increase radius of storm but keep the increased duration to deal the damage (whether the damage is more or not). | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
I just opened up the latest patch in a scratch map. Changed mover to ground for the Unit: Weapon- Reaver Change collide to ground and structure. The scarab still moves to and blows up where the target unit is, regardless of the units death status or not. Did something go wrong? | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
My suggestion was just put void on fleet beacon with an upgrade for a big boost vs massive units. I think this upgrade could also unlock charging. This would put the void clearly into a late game role of anti death units, however, it would still have significant counters and probably couldn't be massed alone. Massive units should include Broods, Carriers, BCs. This will make the void an effective end-game choice vs air armies. Also, really need frenzy change. Additionally, what about my suggestion of tanks doing same amount of damamge to massive as to armored. This is a pure vs archon only change (since ultra is already armored). Since archons already have auto-attack priority over zealots, this change will help stop the a-move armies by reducing the required tank shots by 1-2 depending on upgrades. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:36 summerloud wrote: i wish this would replace HotS  HotS is awesome... | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Do not change blink. If you really want to change diminish the scope and reduce the cooldown. Add the dragon, in my opinion is a step back. Dragons could be added to robotics facility and make it more complete if observer is moved to the nexus. @voidray Try not harmful. You can always add an image to voidray that explains the new features. @warpgate warp gate on starbow are useful in certain situations, in others not. Must decrease (halving) time processing gateway in warpgate and warpgate in gateway. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On December 04 2012 21:30 JohnnyZerg wrote: give at the stalker the dragon attack is so difficult? Do not change blink. If you really want to change diminish the scope and reduce the cooldown. Add the dragon, in my opinion is a step back. Dragons could be added to robotics facility and make it more complete if observer is moved to the nexus. @voidray Try not harmful. You can always add an image to voidray that explains the new features. @warpgate warp gate on starbow are useful in certain situations, in others not. Must decrease (halving) time processing gateway in warpgate and warpgate in gateway. That last point is a good idea. Since the cooldown is so slow (and since you cannot unwarp a warped warpgate when it is in cooldown) the transform period should be faster. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Each of us already know how huge improvement starbow is compared to WOL. Many smaller and bigger changes make this mod unique, fresh and great to play. Lower supply required to support great economy. Spread bases. More versatile races with lots of viable ways to play instead of one path (sc2 macro zerg etc). Unfortunately i feel like for few last weeks our work here is heading in wrong direction. I'm often (almost every time) very critical to most new non-bw stuff in starbow. But once its in game i try to get over that blockade, and Gossen proved me already that my worries were unnecessary. Recent banshee addition is good example. I was holding myself for long before writing this message and i think its time do finally do that. Im not good at writing poems so i will just post list of things i cant get over. 1. Changes in relations between basic units. How they behave in most common situations. Feel of units vs expectations. Recent "tankiness" change of marine/zerling/zealot/hydra/vulture. Of course 50% health increase for lings is biggest one. I know people can get used to everything. But when i play starcraft. When i play zerg. I have already hard-coded in head that zerglings are SQUISHY. It doesnt matter if they have 35hps, 50hps or 1000hps. I just know (at least expect so) that they will DIE very fast. When i bait my opponent to move, react, i am expecting few lings to die in process. Just like that. When they fight with opponent i expect causalities. Right now i can stay with lings almost 4 seconds in storm. Feeling of these units and relations between them changed for me too drastically. Also i dont think step in games like w3, with lower dps/health ratio is good direction. I think reverting these changes is necessary. 2. "Friendly" abilities. In BW almost every ability was "neutral". Each spell could help you or harm you. Every target (meeting requirement), no matter if opponent or ally was equally as good. That was up to player how well and how creative he will use it. I have once seen guy using defensive matrix on opponents zergling and target firing it with tanks to deal more aoe damage around. I cant tell if that was more or less effective than just autoattacks. But point 1 is: he could do that! He wasnt limited by automatic-itsnotgoodwaytousethisspell-helper. He was limited by his creativity (and range and energy ofcourse) only! Second point is: Rising skill celling. Why dark swarm could be so strong? Go on! Let 5 zealots run under dark swarm protecting your hydras. Autocast is not only thing making spells easier to cast in sc2 (and in starbow as well). You cant harm yourself. Imagine infestors fungal being neutral (and even preferably projectile). 3. Forcing casters usefulness for "deathball": Maybe not exactly "deathball", but for army in direct engagement. Zerg right now have 0 casters which are useful on their own (not as support). Infestor (sc2)/queen (bw) can both, support and annoy your opponent. Even defiler could be useful alone. Ghosts got emp back to make them better in bigger skirmishes. Ghost without that have enough of abilities to be useful, just with some tweaks. 4. Nerfing units potential, lowering skill celling and reducing room for creativity. Cooldowns on energy based abilities like lockdown or storm. 1. Makes energy management much easier (units which have casted spell already wont waste more energy, which leads to optimal energy usage distribution), 2. Lowers units potential and forces skill to be enough strong to make up for time you cant use it. You cant choose with ghost to disable 1 unit for 40 sec or 4 units for 10sec. You cant choose with ht to cover more ground with storms and waste more energy, and as opponent you wont force toss to waste 2 storms if single ht defends. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Zergling hps: 40, attack cooldown: 0,5 Marine BT: 22. Stimpack 50% move speed, shield upgrade reduces aoe damage by 25%. Zealot shields: 60, attack damage: 9 Hydralisk hps: 90. range 4, health upgrade removed, range upgrade back in game. Vulture hps: 90. damage: 8/20, speed 4/4,75 (no up/with speed up), attack cooldown: 1,75. Moving shot added if possible. Mutalisk attack cooldown back to 1,82. Stalkers hps 100, atack cooldown 1,75, damage 12+4vs armored, speed reduced to 2,81. Starting energy: 50/100. Blink cost 25energy. Nulifier: Feedback. Aoe manaburn (like archon). Tanks damage increased to: 40vs ligh/55/70vs armored. (+4/+5/+6 per upgrade). Corsairs moving shot added if possible. No changes. Moving shot like in that video would be perfect. Speed and range upgrades removed at fleet beacon. Gravitron catapult added back + returning interceptors heal health damage. Science vessel BT increased. Spells: irradiate/nerve jammer/emp. Ghosts cost: 25/100, health 60. Range 7. Damage 5+5vs light. Upgrade +3 for sight range and snipe range, usable vs all units. Snipe energy cost 0, cooldown 30sec. damage: atack damage x10. Cast time 2sec. Lockdown no cooldown, 75energy, 15sec duration. Burrowed units 50% reduction vs aoe damage (including burrowed mines). Zerg on creep regeneration reduced to 2/sec, delay decreased to 1,5sec. Broodlords range reduced to 10. Spawning pool bt reduced to 65. Cannons attack damage: 22, attack cooldown: 1,25. Creep tumor cooldown reverted. Spine crawler attack damage: 25vs ligh, 30, 35vs armored. Ultralisk HP 400, armor 1, size reduced 20%, attack damage: 25(+3per up), armor and speed upgrade back in cavern Factory minerals cost 175, gas cost 100. Starport Build time 55. Science Vessel Build time: 70, Gas cost 250, Irradiate cost 200/200. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
based on my limited experience with the game i would suggest putting the stalker higher up tech-wise and making it a pure harass unit with high speed and maybe blink already researched, and putting immortal or if possible dragoon in its place. stalkers with range 4 are just really really bad i really appreciate the work you put into this, i often times considered myself doing something like this and i really hope that your project will be able to stay with a consistent player base however now i just got a hots beta key from amazon for preordering, so i guess that was that. best of luck with your project anyways | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
1. Frenzy is a bad design. 2. Something to help mech vs zealot archon (the tank change I suggested would be a good start) 3. Change feedback so that terran can actually use spell casters vs zealot archon (could help with 2). Right now, if you rely on ghosts or vessel, it's a lot like ravens in WoL TvZ. Sure it can work, but one fungle (feedback) and all your gas turns into a paper weight. Terran has to go out of their tech tree to get these casters which have high energy spells but can be easily neutralized by an instant spell casted from an already gotten unit that can be re-used. So, even if you emp templar, toss loses nothing since they can just morph into a full shield archon. Contrast this to if terrans ghosts/vessles get fed back,. Ghosts turn into low DPS paper weights and vessles are 200 gas non-cloaking observers. If you were relying on these units for your battles, it feel kinda sucky to just get them fed back and instantly die to an a-move. At least on the old dark archon the toss was forced to make useless units which took away from their death army in order to neutralize your casters. If you emp'd them, the DAs were then useless. This created a risk-reward scenerio for toss, if he invests too much in DTs/DAs he hurts his army. With the current situation, even if you EMP the templar, zealot archon is so strong he just gets more archons with no loss to his army, and you lose valuable EMPs in the process, which is what he wanted you to do in the first place. These are my 3 main concerns right now from a terran point of view. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On December 05 2012 04:36 summerloud wrote: i played starbow for the last two days, gave me some nice flashbacks to BW, it really feels very similar based on my limited experience with the game i would suggest putting the stalker higher up tech-wise and making it a pure harass unit with high speed and maybe blink already researched, and putting immortal or if possible dragoon in its place. stalkers with range 4 are just really really bad In cybernetic core an upgrade there is a upgrade to increase at 6 range of stalker (as the dragon bw). | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
On December 05 2012 04:53 JohnnyZerg wrote: In cybernetic core an upgrade there is a upgrade to increase at 6 range of stalker (as the dragon bw). Too many people forget about stalker range during games >.<. | ||
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