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Nullifier as proposed sounds great. I think the shield drain for blink is then a good nerf since the nullifier can combo it up. I am sorry to change the discussion but I have two other thoughts.
1. We should get a ranking system in Starbow (I understand it is not even fully developed, but opinions from high level players, especially those who play more races are always worth listening to). I know it is possible to make in custom games, just look at squadron TD. This would be a different system though, maybe bring back the iccup ranks.
2. We should try to get more publicity. It would be awesome to get two pros / semi-pros to play a good game /showmatch and have day[9] review it on one of his shows. I think more players would play if they just knew it existed.
Personally I feel like I'm in the BW days again when I play Starbow. I was so looking forward to SC2 to get rid of all the mindless AMP (selecting workers to mine, hotkey each hatcery on differnet hotkeys etc) but I was not ready to play a game that was so different and punished a small error in such a disastrous ways (anyone missed a forcefield before?) Starbow game to save me from trying LoL or something 
- Xiphias.
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@ Xiphias
1. JohnnyZerg is currently working/looking at a system. His though is to put all Starbow maps into the same map and with some kind of in-game lobby, different maps can be selected. Or maybe I am wrong? Anyway, I do not know how to create such a system myself.
2. That would indeed be very good. I am just a bit careful with it. IF Starbow would get a lot more attention by Day-9 or someome, I fear that this could bloom... and then die again. Players would come here to find out that the races are not fully designed or the game lacks the basic balance.
Right now the player pool is at a quite personal level, atleast on EU. Most players recognize each other and discuss the game in the ingame chat or in this thread. We are daily 8-15 players on EU during the evenings. But that goes up and down. Some of the players have played it a lot for many months and I try to listen to all feedback I get. Even though I do not always agree ^^
But the design is starting to be completed. As I said in the previous post, there are only a couple of more minor areas I consider to redesign. Except for that, I will focus more on balance and NOT on major changes.
Another important aspect of Starbow is the map pool. Currently almost all maps in the map pool are designed for SC2. Maps play an important role for the balance, meta-game and the feeling of... awesomeness..
As far as I know, Decemberscalm is currently hosting some kind of map making project where maps shall be developed purely for Starbow. So I once again pledge to the community: Would anyone care to create a map for Starbow?
I am also trying to find the Kespa maps. But they are a mystery. No one knows if they exist or not... O_o
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382258
I have put a deadline on myself. I plan to get Starbow fully developed before this year is over. That means that the balance, design etc shall be so good that I don´t have to be ashamed.
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@ Kabel
U'r doing a fantastic job, keep it up. I'm not so sure I like the dark swarm only affect zerg units idea, may become too easy of a spell. It is so powerful as it is and might be too good if it is too easy to use. I am not a map-maker unfortunately. Good to hear a ranking system is on its way.
Edit: I'm on EU now if anyone is up for a game.
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as far as the attack goes i think we should look to the reaver, because it shares tech with the reaver. reavers are long ranged, good against light, grouped units. so something that is good against single target armored units but not with a lot of range.
howver since you add an anti-armored boost for the stalker i suggest just making it have no bonus damage
i'd say range 6 or 7, and moving at speed of zealot (without speed)
if you want the attack to do something and keep the name "nullifier" you would have to change it's main ability to a passive ability that it gets when attacking and nullifies something. the ability would look something like this
after every attack reduces damage dealt by the target by 20%, stacks, lasts 5 seconds.
if you'd do this i suggest removing 1 spell though because having 3 spells + an attack + an ability that activates on the attack is quite a lot.
in the end i think just naming it contegor and give it a single target attack (similar to the sentry but actually doing enough damage to kill a vulture or something)
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-Void ray (Its a decent unit, but for many reasons I have never been a fan of it)
i suggest making it slower and do slightly more damage, just because stargate tech already has the fast and low-damage corsair.
- Energize for Medics (Its a dull and rather uninteresting spell.)
not sure what you could do with this. this is basically all the medic can do (heal health, shield, heal energy)
- Auto-turret for Science Vessel
i still suggest moving emp from the ghost to the science vessel because the ghost has every single ability you need versus terran mech and protoss. removing or nerfing the auto-turret could make it so the science vessel isn't really buffed that much when you do this. if you want to nerf it i suggest making it only possible to place 1(instead of 4?). i think that really is enough because you only get 1 per science vessel.
- Combat shield (I will see if it can do something else than just give a HP bonus)
you could play around with the `shield` mechanic. for example an ability that automatically increases armor by +2 when you get under 50% health. this only matters if you want them to keep the marine-with-shield model though.
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i think you're doing a fine job on both balance and design gossen. in it's current state this is already more fun to play than standard starcraft 2.
theres just one more dull/boring thing that i suggest you change - protoss air upgrades from the fleet beacon
range / speed is a little weird and benefits different air units differently. for example the corsair (range 3-4?)(with high speed) will get a much bigger advantage from both upgrades while the carrier (range 8-9?)(with decent speed) won't really notice them at all.
i suggest having specific upgrades for every unit
for the corsair a range upgrade really is the best choice. so i suggest making it a +2 range upgrade instead of +1. this works because it won't have a speed upgrade, but maybe increase it's base speed so it can kite mutalisks (but not scourge)
for the voidray i suggest lowering it's base speed (a lot) and damage (slightly) then giving it a damage upgrade so that it when upgraded gets more damage than right now, but while moving a lot slower (slower than the carrier without upgrades)
for the arbiter a speed upgrade may be useful, but keep in mind that doing these changes will make fleet beacons more common (as it's a slight buff to stargate) and therefore the arbiter will be easier to get (which is one of it's main costs, both tech and gas) so don't make it more than the current speed upgrade.
for the carrier i am not sure what could be useful. the first thing that comes to mind is leash range (i'm sure you've seen this in liquidnony's video) so basically the upgrade would be something like "increases the range before interceptors fly back to the carrier by 3" (if you haven't seen the nony video, basically leash range is the range when you attack with a carrier and then fly away. the leash range is then the range at which interceptors fly back to the carrier)
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Kabel, I would like to sincerely thank you for all the work you are putting in to destroy the deathball and bring a higher skillcap to the game. I am only a bronze league player in the really game but Starbow has really help me develop my multitasking. I hope that one day, blizzard finally takes the lead from the community (starbow) and makes the game the best it truly can be. This is some truly magnificent work you're doing.
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@Hydra range: I said it a few pages ago, and I will say it again. Range upgrades are HUGE in army management and individual unit micro.
Non-pros tend to vastly underestimate the effect range upgrades have because they don't give anything directly visible to the unit. Don't be fooled; range is one of the stongest and most exploitable upgrades to get. It makes your concaves better, makes it easier to defend chokes, kite enemy units, attack chokes, flank, reposition your army in battle and a whole lot of other important stuff. Units gain small benefits in all of these areas from a simple +1 in range.
So please don't think that because people still figuring out the game is undervaluing range on hydras, its a bad upgrade. Most likely its a massively important, but undervalued upgrade, that has huge implications on balance in most vZ machups.
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On November 25 2012 20:07 fietstas wrote:
i think you're doing a fine job on both balance and design gossen. in it's current state this is already more fun to play than standard starcraft 2.
theres just one more dull/boring thing that i suggest you change - protoss air upgrades from the fleet beacon
range / speed is a little weird and benefits different air units differently. for example the corsair (range 3-4?)(with high speed) will get a much bigger advantage from both upgrades while the carrier (range 8-9?)(with decent speed) won't really notice them at all.
i suggest having specific upgrades for every unit
for the corsair a range upgrade really is the best choice. so i suggest making it a +2 range upgrade instead of +1. this works because it won't have a speed upgrade, but maybe increase it's base speed so it can kite mutalisks (but not scourge)
for the voidray i suggest lowering it's base speed (a lot) and damage (slightly) then giving it a damage upgrade so that it when upgraded gets more damage than right now, but while moving a lot slower (slower than the carrier without upgrades)
for the arbiter a speed upgrade may be useful, but keep in mind that doing these changes will make fleet beacons more common (as it's a slight buff to stargate) and therefore the arbiter will be easier to get (which is one of it's main costs, both tech and gas) so don't make it more than the current speed upgrade.
for the carrier i am not sure what could be useful. the first thing that comes to mind is leash range (i'm sure you've seen this in liquidnony's video) so basically the upgrade would be something like "increases the range before interceptors fly back to the carrier by 3" (if you haven't seen the nony video, basically leash range is the range when you attack with a carrier and then fly away. the leash range is then the range at which interceptors fly back to the carrier)
whoah there, speed and range buff for carriers is huge, makes it much easier to pick off targets and escape again. I like the air upgrades in their current form a lot.
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I have to agree with Zaphod in regards to Hydra range. While I always get speed first, range is still a critically important upgrade to get, even if it is not as visually obvious (22 range tempest ftw). If the hydras already came with the extra range, then I could see a case being made for a different upgrade.
If we DO want a different upgrade (assuming range buff is default), Might I suggest:
In honor of the green poisonous spines hydras shot back in the day....
Corrosive Spines: Mechanical units take a debuff of -.3 speed(adjustable) for 2 seconds. Does not stack.
100/200/100
As far as I can tell, hydras show their true effectiveness when going up against mechanical targets. Biological units such as Marine Medic / Chargelots / LingBlings are extremely potent in the early game before splash damage is out. Why don't we emphasize to the players what hydras should really be used against: vultures, stalkers, air units.
The proposed cost is to align with players who are really investing in their hydralisks. Excess gas is more common than excess minerals while building straight hydras, so an upgrade that is gas heavy and mineral light is less wrenching than the other way around. It is a serious upgrade, so it should take a while to complete as well.
Perhaps the hydra animation can shoot a green spine with this upgrade as a visual cue.
Does this satisfy the desire for an upgrade that is not just a simple buff?
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On November 25 2012 19:11 Kabel wrote:
1. JohnnyZerg is currently working/looking at a system. His though is to put all Starbow maps into the same map and with some kind of in-game lobby, different maps can be selected. Or maybe I am wrong? Anyway, I do not know how to create such a system myself.
I do not know about putting all the maps on a single map and/or having some kind of in-game lobby; however, you can look at SC2BW for ideas on how to implement the rating/ranking system. Maverick has implemented a near-iCCup version of ranking and the files are extractable. I have taken a look at it, and it looks straightforward to put it on a Starbow map. Of course, you probably want to ask Maverick if you may use it.
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The new patch is delayed till tomorrow. I For some unknown reason the MOD file became corrupt and could not be open.. I downloaded it from B.net again, so it was not a big damage. But I lost three hours of work because of it >.<
@The other small design areas
I will not change anything about the other stuff yet. So I will not replace any spells or upgrades now. I will take that in the next patch, so not everything happens at once.
Good I got reminded about the Fleet beacon upgrades. I will look at them in the future and see if they shall remain in their current form.
@All kind words of appreciation for Starbow
I appreicate that you all appreciate this ^^
But those who play this are the ones who should be thanked! Without any players I would never had continued. So thank you for playing!
@Hydra range upg
I will not replace it right now.. or maybe at all.
range is one of the stongest and most exploitable upgrades to get. It makes your concaves better, makes it easier to defend chokes, kite enemy units, attack chokes, flank, reposition your army in battle and a whole lot of other important stuff. Units gain small benefits in all of these areas from a simple +1 in range.
Range is indeed an important aspect of units. But what bothers me is that the speed upgrade already allows the Hydra to do the following things:
Kite enemy units
Flank
Reposition your army
The range upg enables this:
Concaves get better
Chokes are easier to defend
Attack chokes. (Speed also gives a bonus in this area)
The speed upgrade adds interactive bonuses to the unit. With the speed upgrade, Hydras can for example outmicro slow Zealots or better charge vs enemy tanks. It has an enjoyable effect for the Z player.
Nothing is wrong with certain upgrades giving static bonuses though. They are important for the game too.
Here are some criterion for what I think makes an upgrade good, in terms of design:
- An upgrade shall change the relationship between units, preferably in a distinct way.
(Hydra with speed can kill Zealots. Zealots with speed can kill Hydras. Marines with Combat shield can survive 3 shots from lurkers instead of 2.)
- An upgrade shall make a specific part of the unit more useful.
(Vulture speed upg allows for better run-bys and harassment. Spider mine upg gives map control and defence.
- If a unit has two upgrades available at the same time. they shall both be "equal" in power to allow dept in the decision.
(Blink and Charge are two equally strong upgrades but for different purposes. )
- An upgrade shall preferably allow units to be used in a new way. The upgrade "unlocks" something for the unit.
(Zergling speed allow Z to do run-bys or surround. Of course it CAN be done otherwise too, its just much much harder.)
This is just my view on the matter. I am sure there are many more approaches to upgrades.
So whats the problem with Hydra range?
-------> + Show Spoiler + - An upgrade shall change the relationship between units, preferably in a distinct way.
The +1 range indeed has an effect on the game. Just as +1 weapon or armor up. But there is nothing breathtaking or special about it.. "Omg will he get +1 range upg for Hydras done in time? HE NEEDS IT NOW!" Compare it to marine + 1 range upg, stalker +2 range upg or Goliaths +3 range to fight vs carriers.
- An upgrade shall make a specific part of the unit more useful.
Well, it gets better overall in combat. It can attack and defend chokes better. And form more efficent concaves. But again, it feels like +1 armor or weapon archives a similar effect.
- If a unit has two upgrades available at the same time. they shall both be "equal" in power to allow dept in the decision.
Players always go speed first. There is rarely any reason NOT to do it - speed gives map control, better micro in offensive combats, faster reinforcements etc. Maybe can the range upg be used to Hydra bust the Protoss front wall without being hit by the cannons.
- An upgrade shall preferably allow units to be used in a new way. The upgrade "unlocks" something for the unit.
It must not be anything fancy that is unlocked. Just allow the Hydra to take part in situations it could not before.
So what am I suggesting? One way can be an upgrade that gives Hydras +20 HP. The choice between speed upg or extra HP upg would be more interesting. So speed is good for offensive/map control play, +20 HP good for defensive play, depending on how Z chooses to play in the early and mid game. Both upgrades effect completely different parts of the Hydra. (Maybe can the Hydra start with the extra range instead, just to free up space for an other upgrade.. )
This would not be a super awesome upgrade either. But as I said, not every upgrade must not be mind blowing. But I do not want them to feel redundant either : /
Corrosive Spines: Mechanical units take a debuff of -.3 speed(adjustable) for 2 seconds. Does not stack.
100/200/100
As far as I can tell, hydras show their true effectiveness when going up against mechanical targets. Biological units such as Marine Medic / Chargelots / LingBlings are extremely potent in the early game before splash damage is out. Why don't we emphasize to the players what hydras should really be used against: vultures, stalkers, air units.
The proposed cost is to align with players who are really investing in their hydralisks. Excess gas is more common than excess minerals while building straight hydras, so an upgrade that is gas heavy and mineral light is less wrenching than the other way around. It is a serious upgrade, so it should take a while to complete as well.
Perhaps the hydra animation can shoot a green spine with this upgrade as a visual cue.
Does this satisfy the desire for an upgrade that is not just a simple buff?
I don´t mind upgrades being simple, but of course a passive ability that is unlocked can be a way to go. If I understand it correctly, Hydras slow the unit they attack if its mechanical?
I do not think this one would fit in the game since it would make the relationship between Hydras + Infestors redundant. Zerg Fungal the enemy so Hydras/Lings can catch them. The Hydra would all of a sudden do that by itself.
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Maybe I just missed it, but what is to come in this new patch? All I see are things that will not be changed. (Like the sc2 patch "bunker building time remains the same")
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I will write down the changes tomorrow in a post here. There are some minor balance adjustments and the redesign of a couple of things. Plus that the new unit Nullifier will replace Immortal.
And some critical bug fixes ..
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He sent me a PM about it yesterday, Or maybe he has changed something more?
But he is welcome to send further changes to me, or paste them in the thread. Values for Corsairs gliding shot would be welcome too! And Dragoon moving shot!
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I don´t mind upgrades being simple, but of course a passive ability that is unlocked can be a way to go. If I understand it correctly, Hydras slow the unit they attack if its mechanical?
I do not think this one would fit in the game since it would make the relationship between Hydras + Infestors redundant. Zerg Fungal the enemy so Hydras/Lings can catch them. The Hydra would all of a sudden do that by itself
Fair enough with hydra + infestor reasoning. I just want hydras to spit green stuff again T_T
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On November 26 2012 06:20 Doominator10 wrote:Show nested quote +I don´t mind upgrades being simple, but of course a passive ability that is unlocked can be a way to go. If I understand it correctly, Hydras slow the unit they attack if its mechanical?
I do not think this one would fit in the game since it would make the relationship between Hydras + Infestors redundant. Zerg Fungal the enemy so Hydras/Lings can catch them. The Hydra would all of a sudden do that by itself Fair enough with hydra + infestor reasoning. I just want hydras to spit green stuff again T_T
nostalgia aside, a more visible attack animation is better for the spectators. +1 for green stuff
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I tried messing around with the stalker. It does not feel exactly like a dragoon, and I think that is because of two things:
1. Range in SC2 feels so much less than in BW. (goliath AA, too)
2. Puny Stalker laser versus Dragoon explosive ball of energy
I do think it can be done decently well, though.
Nevertheless, to get started, you will want to look at these values. I have the values that felt good to me. I was just trying to get a slow projectile that accelerates the longer it is in the air (but not too fast). One thing from BW dragoons that I miss is all of the projectiles in the air converging on 1 target. SC2 stalkers' projectiles move way too fast to enjoy that. These tweaks allow the laser more air time, which definitely feels nicer without detracting from the speed of actual gameplay.
Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_Acceleration 4
Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_MaxSpeed 14
Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_MinSpeed 6
Those are just the most basic tweaks. I can fine tune the other things later, but the "moving shot" (not actually moving shot, it's more like stutter stepping, but people have been referring it by that) is a lot more noticeable than on the SC2 stalker. It takes a bit to get used to (it is going to feel slow at first), but I never actually changed the rate of fire, so it is just aesthetics at the moment. Though, it does make blink-micro easier, but blink-micro was never that difficult to begin with.
EDIT: Fixed values. Should be final.
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On November 26 2012 03:37 Kabel wrote:
He sent me a PM about it yesterday, Or maybe he has changed something more?
But he is welcome to send further changes to me, or paste them in the thread. Values for Corsairs gliding shot would be welcome too! And Dragoon moving shot!
The PM I sent you is all you should need for the reaver.
Corsair is a mixed bag, you'd really have to play with it in BW to get a feel for how it actually worked.
Vulture is something that you could either increase its stationary turn speed to give it a patrol micro thing, or a wider arc for its weapon. Currently the vulture is beast mode even without patrol micro, so bear that in mind.
The dragoon never had a moving shot, what on earth?
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EPT
