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movitz
Sweden15 Posts
I wish there was a way to promote when people are streaming. As of now, it is almost impossible to catch a stream becuse you have to read the thread and find someone doing it, You dont just stumble upon it. I think this is a problem when trying to spread starbow. Easiness of accessibility. We cant get it on the right bar, streamning section, of teamliquid ofc (not yet). Maybe a small homepage link from the OP showing of the streams that are available? Any ideas? | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
As for streams not using twitch, posting it here and reading this thread is probably the best bet. | ||
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Anya
Russian Federation17 Posts
One more reason to play Starbow... | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On November 23 2012 06:14 decemberscalm wrote: Attention Starbow citizens. I'll be working on and coordinating a project that should revitalize the current map pool. I have a few mappers already I could get to help me, but I'd love if we have more than just NA guys helping me and talking to me. If you wouldn't mind lending a hand pm or just pm me your skype if you have it. As for non-mappers, feel free to PM me maps so we don't just have pages and pages of talk about new maps people find. I'll post really good candidates for discussion. To start off we need to know what is the best criteria for a map. My primary goal is to make sure defenders advantage is put into actual practice to support Kabel's concept of the game as proposed in the Op. This means making choke points and ramps actually matter. With Kabel's blessing, we could potentially get in some amazing maps to play on to complement this amazing mod. Thank you! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=162#3239 !!! @movitz I will refresh the main page as soon as the design of the game is complete, so I can create new pictures to present the content. There are only a few areas left to design (Immortal... *cough* ) so probably will the main page be fixed in maybe 2 weeks. I will also add links to common streamers and other useful info. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
Lings, Hydras, and Lurkers seem to melt farily easily, and you can get MOAR immortals Bcuz they are cheaper Obvious downside: They dont shoot up =__= | ||
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fietstas
Netherlands43 Posts
Right now there's not many things that feel like design-wise they need to be changed (balance wise it's a lot harder to say so those will be at the bottom) Firstly: Immortals, their role before was good anti-ground damage, a shield that helped vs high damage (tanks/mines) and they used up a lot of gas. In their current state they do good damage still against most ground units (light units tend to be weaker too so they're still kind of okay against them. the shield has been removed entirely making them die much faster, especially against tanks+mines they die really quickly now. their main purpose is to be different from stalkers, so lets compare the two. Stalkers and immortals are both 4 legged units that shoot from two cannons, they cost more minerals than gas. stalkers have more range and can shoot air, they have a range upgrade to increase this factor. they don't have any bonus damage. they have more speed and have an upgrade (blink) that can increase their mobility even more. immortals have less range and can shoot only ground, they have extra damage against armored and less against light. they don't have any upgrades or abilities. immortals have more health/shields/armor than stalkers, to make up for the lack of mobility/range. the main problem here is obviously that the immortal is only an attack-move unit with no upgrades or abilities to define it more. Since it's purpose is to be an oppossite form of the stalker the obvious choice seems to be an increase of survivability at the cost of mobility. so my suggestion is the following (values would need to be tweaked): an ability on immortals that stops all movement from the immortal and stops all damage being taken. after 1 second it takes 10% of normal damage and moves at 10% of the speed, after another second it takes 20% of normal damage and moves at 20% of the normal speed. and so on until after 10 seconds its back to normal. (add a cooldown of like 30-40 seconds so it has to be timed well) at the same time this buffs immortals so i would suggest to also lower the damage of immortals by default a bit more, to 35 vs armored, 20 vs normal, 10 vs light obviously these values would need to be tested (maybe it needs to be 20% per second so it only lasts 5 seconds and goes away faster, but with a shorter cooldown?) i think it is fine that no robotics units cost more gas than minerals because it allows upgrades and combinations with templar/air the second point is a couple of casters that seem to be underused or have underused abilities. The arbiter and Swarm guardian, These don't see gameplay very often at all, even in the late game. I suggest removing the requirement of a templar archives for the arbiter. it already costs a lot of gas so it is not logical for a player going templar archives to make them. for the swarm guardian i am not entirely sure what to change about it. maybe make it only require hive + infestation pit (then broods are air t3, ultras ground t3, swarm guardian caster t3) ghosts as cool as they are, EMP + snipe + lockdown + cloak + nukes means that the ghost has such an incredible variety of uses (especially in TvT and TvP) that it almost gets a little overpowered, i suggest increasing the energy cost on lockdown to 100. another posibility is making all abilities share a (5-10 sec) cooldown, meaning you have to choose between all the different utilities more, but i think the energy cost increase will be enough. dark archons their first spell, feedback, is fine. the second one that increases speed in an area? seems fine too. the third one though (prevents auto-attack on 5 units untill they take damage) seems a little silly. I suggest instead it useable for detection. this would be a nerf to especially banshees and mines and gives protoss a 3rd way to detect (instead of cannons/observer) like all other races (spore/fungal/overseer, emp/scan/turret/science vessel). it should be an aimed area affect (like emp/fungal) that does something, i'm not sure what but it should detect units too. maybe this: Void ashes - costs 100 energy - cast like fungal/emp up to 5 units in an area will do 50% less damage on their next attack, also detects cloaked units, lasts 10 seconds. I think high templars and science vessels in their current state are fine. I'd like to move on to Zerg early game problems, many times do you see zergs having trouble with zealot or bio pushes in the early game. I think the best way to fix this is to lower the build time of Spine crawlers from 60 seconds to something like 40 seconds (it should take at least 40 seconds for a unit to move from main to main). it rewards good scouting/overlord positions because when you see the attack coming and you throw down the spines and stop injecting you can have a good defense. with 4-6 spines + 2 queens(transfuse too) and less than 10 lings you should be able to hold any non-allin attacks before the 8 minute mark without taking many losses. if it is allin you will obviously need a little more, but it's okay because your opponent is allin. Mines You said today that you don't like the way they work right now because it's hard to snipe them. i don't think this needs to be fixed really. but if you do want to try something to nerf mines, try increasing the time (very slightly) it takes before they attack. i do think that mines should activate enemy mines when being placed. mines are (non-hover)units and they should activate mines. Ultralisk Like the immortal up above it has one main problem: it is an attack move unit. unlike the immortal however it has many unique features and doesn't need such a big change. you said you wanted it to be a tanking unit so i suggest an increase to its base armor by +1 per upgrade (someone said this in chat, i think this would be great). it is not a big deal when fighting tanks or archons as they're already high damage, but it is very much a big deal when fighting low damage units like marines, lings or zealots. it feels silly when a big smashing heavily armored ultralisk can get killed fairly easily by marines or zealots (haven't seen them in zvz). Aside from that there are only two things left that i'd say should be changed: Banshee should be more expensive (+25 or +50 gas) and Hallucinations shouldn't cost supply  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This is the last major decision I need to take, regarding the design of Starbow. Remember that this decision has nothing to do with balance. This is about creating the best foundation for the game, and from that point it can be balanced. For those of you who have followed the discussion in this thread lately, the problems might be quite familiar. Should the Stalker or Dragoon be in the game? Should the Immortal be in the game? If not, what should it be replaced with? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0whzs.jpg) Ca 7-10 days ago, I said I would try to find a way for both the Stalker and Immortal to be in the game. Both should have a unique and interesting role in the Protoss race. I especially have focused on finding a way to make the Immortal more interesting to control. I have tried a lot of things in the editor: - Experimented with Hardened shield as an activated ability - Given it a Area of effect ability it can cast on the ground to create a shield there. - Moving shot and other minor micro adjustments. - Different types of attacks, projectiles, lazers that shoot like blue flame hellion and other wacky stuff. Despite all my effort, the fundamental problem remain: The Immortal is indeed only a larger version of the Stalker. It's controlled in the same way, A-moved in the same way, microed in the same way, used for almost the same purposes and almost looks the same. There is nothing interesting in controlling an Immortal or observing a player controlling Immortals. Furtermore, the Immortal collides with the Archon in terms of the purpose: slow, high HP and good damage. I do consider to scrap or replace the Immortal since I find no way to make it interesting. I have looked at the Colossus and potential ways to adjust it. It has some unique features: - It can move up and down cliffs - It is both an air and ground unit - It has a cool and unique model But it overlaps too much with other Protoss units: Reaver, Stalkers with blink, Archons. Plus there are many flaws with it... So the Colossus is not a realistic unit to bring back into the game.. What alternatives do I have left..? Well.. If you look at the picture above, you see a tiny unit. Its not a Sentry.. Its a Nullifier model I found at sc2mapster.com. I consider to let it be a new Protoss unit built from the Robotics facility. Ca 2 months ago, SmileZerg had some good ideas regarding a potential robotic caster. Nullifier - Slow ground unit - Probably no attack. - Protective/defensive caster whos purpose is to strengthen/manipulate friendly units. The line-up of spells can be something like this: - Hallucination from BW (Which currently is on the High Templar) - Matrix that manipulates time in an area. Your units attack faster, enemy units attack slower within that area. - Void Shell which makes some of your units not auto-attacked. (Both Matrix and Void Shell are on the Dark Archon now) If so, the other Protoss casters can look like this: High Templar - Feedback, Psi Storm and Warp into Archon Arbiter - Stasis Field and Recall Dark Archon - Removed from the game. The Dark Archon is cool, but adding 3 completely new spells to it feels hard and unnecessary. Kill your darlings... Would the Nullifier improve the game? It would be a unique caster that overlaps with no other Protoss units. P will have 1 caster in each unit production building. It will hopefully be a versatile caster that probably will see play in all match-ups. - Void Shell will be useful for breaking siege tanks + mine fields and maybe lurker contains. It will not be a auto-breaker, like Immortals are. Instead the spell can break contains if played properly and if the enemy is not careful. It can surely be used in other types of combats too, and for harassment. Overall it creates some nice micro scenarios. For details how Void Shell currently works: + Show Spoiler + You apply a buff to 5 units. It lasts 60 seconds. Enemy units and buildings will not attack the units UNLESS they are ordered to do so. As soon as a unit with Void Shell takes damage, the buff is removed.. - Matrix would be useful to strengthen Protoss melee units vs enemy melee units. If Zealots fight vs Zerglings in an area with Matrix, the enemy gets -25% attack speed and Zealots gain +25% attack speed. It can also be casted on top of Stalkers, Reavers etc to increase the damage output. Maybe can Matrix be adjusted to have an effect on Protoss shields too.. - Hallucination is always decent to use. Lure the opponent, get free scout or atleast gain some extra cannon fodder in combat. It will probably be the worst spell of the three, though. Obviously the spells can be adjusted. My point is that I think the Nullifier has potential to improve the game. There is room for some nice features on it. Its a caster that improves the potential of the Protoss units and it feels more interesting than the Immortal. ... Stalker with Blink or Dragoon? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Sxkh5.jpg) There are design advantages and disadvantages with each unit. Stalker with Blink and Warp in Good stuff: Stalker is a unit that releases itself from the deathball. It can be a part of the main army, but it can also roam freely on the map for harassment. Blink adds lot of micro potential in combat. A skilled player can defeat a larger army via excellent blink micro. A player who chooses to focus on the Stalker can increase it´s efficency a lot. Bad stuff: In terms of balance, a unit with such high degree of mobility can not be a superior combat unit. A feature of the Protoss race is few but strong units. Not plenty of mediocre units. Blink nullifies the importance of area control and terrain. Dragoon with Warp in Good stuff: Its an iconic and classic Starcraft unit. The micro potential revolves around the moving shot. It makes the Arbiter with Recall more important for Protoss map movement. It brings back the nice interaction between vultures, siege tanks and Dragoons. Bad stuff: It is more of a deathball unit that benefits from being clumped up, since its too clumpsy to do harassment on its own. It will be very hard to balance a unit that have high DPS, good HP and can be warped in anywhere on the map... (Imagine a reaver drop in the Terran base + 6 strong dragoons warping in..) Obviously there are more "good and bad" aspects for both units. I just bring this discussion here so I can hear other perspectives on the matter. Its also a small "warning" that a change for Protoss might occur, so it does not come as a shock all of a sudden. Maybe are there other solutions to the Immortal/Stalker/Dragoon dilemma that I have not thought of. So please share your views on this. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
Maybe severely decrease the range of blink to 1 or 2 and buff stats? Make it more like dragoon, essentially. Perhaps increased range, moving shot (more noticeable), more damage to armoured/larger units and less damage to light/smaller units. The blink can just be used to micro back or move a few up a cliff (but has to be right at ledge), but it will not be nearly as mobile as the stalkers with current blink (select whole group and blink somewhere). On another note, I miss the shield battery. lol | ||
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fietstas
Netherlands43 Posts
you remove 2 units (dark archon + immortal) and add one also the nullifier will remove all standard attacks from robo tech (leaving only scarabs to deal damage), making robo tech entirely a support tech tree. the colossus is a bad idea because it overlaps with all splash damage units. it improves anti air play (anti air counters both robo and air play if you do this) cliffwalking is silly. instead i'd suggest trying the immortal ability i suggested above, or if you want to give up on immortals and add a "nullifier" i suggest making it something like this decent damage with bonus vs light units, lets say 15+10 vs light attacks once per second 5-6 range when attacking a unit/structure, that unit/structure moves/attacks 50% slower for 1 second (gets refreshed by attack) attacks ground only this makes it useful versus light units (bonus damage) or single target ground units and base defense by lowering the damage that they deal and preventing retreat (but requires micro) i really don't think robotics bay should have a caster, that stuff is for templar + late stargate | ||
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fietstas
Netherlands43 Posts
there is ofcourse also a middle line where you do remove the dark archon and add in your nullifier, but you also add in dragoons (and change dragoons/stalkers to bonus damage vs light/armored so they're more different from eachother), with stalkers requiring a twilight council. (this leaves toss with the same amount of units as they have right now) | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
In a similar vein, I really like the idea of Dark Archons, but perhaps you're right that nullifier would be more useful. DA just comes too late in the tech tree to be very useful with the spells it has. I dislike Feedback on HT, for the fact that they should be anti-swarm units, not anti-caster units. And i vote in favor of the colossus. Definitely not in its current sc2 form, but redesigned completely. Perhaps something like the wc3 siege units, with the ability to Attack Area, or as a low damage, long range siege unit like the HoTs Tempest, but slower and easier to kill, and without the ability to abuse airspace. Another stupid idea that could be done with the Colossus is the continuation of the "walking factory" theme of protoss. Like reavers and Carriers. Perhaps give it a more supportive role, and have it drop things like Obelisks (sc2 beta) or Temporary Shield batteries. Also, I vote against the spell Void Shell. It's spectator unfriendly and un-fun. It could easily be redesigned as "Turns up to 5 units in target aoe invisible until they take damage, lasts 60 seconds otherwise". It would have much of the same uses, except the effects are more discernible to both the spectator and player, and it fits into already established mechanics. I dislike Matrix too. It's too similar to Zerg's Frenzy spell. | ||
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
As far as the nullifier, I think that model is cooler than the sentry model. Also, I personally wouldn't have a huge problem with forcefield, as long as it couldn't be casted on top of units, similar to the way buildings cannot be constructed on top of enemy units. I have a feeling forcefield would be useful and balanced by making a small change like that, because you could no longer use it to split an army in battle, so massing them would be a huge waste. But you could still wall off your ramp momentarily as a defensive maneuver, or wall off the enemies ramp as you drop as an offensive maneuver. I know you probably weren't thinking of giving the nullifier forcefield anyways, but just a thought. | ||
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asphyxia88
94 Posts
I still feel like both the Dragoon and the Stalker has a place in Starbow. The Dragoon could be slower (around 2.5ish speed), have more hit points, deal more damage against Armored targets but have no abilities and is a rather clunky unit that needs good control to really maximize its effectiveness. While the Stalker could be much faster (around 3 - 3.5ish speed), have less hit points, and deal more damage against Light units and it also has Blink. The Dragoon would be the main ranged unit for the Protoss force while the Stalker is a very mobile Scout/Harasser/Flanker, that can move in quickly, snipe something and blink out. I'd compare this kind of Stalker to a Mutalisk, since they both would be a rather fast, harassment kind of unit that are used to snipe key units and base harass. As for the Immortal; Remove it, I've never liked it and couldn't care less if its gone. If I were forced to pick either the Dragoon or the Stalker, I'd go for the Dragoon, but I still want Blink to be in the game somehow since I like it as an ability, but without the Stalker the only unit I can think of that would make sense having it would be the Dark Templar, and that might be hard to balance. (maybe something like Blinking reveals the Dark Templar for a short duration or something and requires a research found in the Templar Archives) Dark Archon vs Nullifier I love the Dark Archon but removing it from the game wouldn't really be a huge loss, especially considering its spells could easily be given to other units just like you suggested. Would Dark Templar once again be able to morph into Archons if that happened? Either way, I'm for removing the Dark Archon and replacing it with a Nullifer constructed at the Robotics Facility. Colossus I've never really liked the Colossus as a unit, watching PvP late game lazer wars is the most boring thing I could possibly imagine, the Colossus is just not a very interesting unit. Maybe it could be made more interesting but there are already many units that fill its role as an area of effect damage dealer. (Reaver, Archon, High Templar) | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
On November 24 2012 14:21 asphyxia88 wrote: Colossus I've never really liked the Colossus as a unit, watching PvP late game lazer wars is the most boring thing I could possibly imagine, the Colossus is just not a very interesting unit. Then you obviously can't imagine broodling + infested terran mirror battles in ZvZ, when all the broodlings are 0/3 >.> | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I have one important general thought when it comes to any unit. DO NOT MAKE TOO HARD COUNTERS. Do not give unit +10-15 dmg vs something maybe +5 - 10 dmg. Making hard counters makes the game too much "rock.paper.sciccor" like the maurader in SC2. Almost imposiible to beat with any number of decent stalkers because of too high vs armored buff. And please let the dragoon go. Protoss need harass units and blik -stalkers are so much fun. Espesially with the range upgrade in Starbow. My 2 cents. Peace out! | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Both the Immortal and Dark Archon are not used often. Immortals see more play than the Dark Archon though. If both are removed and replaced with 1 unit that actually see play and is useful, unique, interesting, fun, versatile and just .. awesome.... Then I think that would be for the greater good for Protoss. @Blink I am not a fan of Blink on DT's. It ruins the interaction between Warp Prism + DTs in order to get them into the enemy base. All of a sudden Dark Templars can get in and out of every enemy base by themselfes. Combine that with permanent cloak and super high DPS and we get a unit that will increase rage quitting by 150%. On the same route, Blink on a "bread and butter unit" like the Stalker also takes away the need of support units for movement - Warp prism drop and Arbiter with Recall. The Stalker can do it itself... If Blink is combined with high HP and good DPS, it also leads to "broken scenarios" where the main Protoss army just blinks into the enemy base and kill him. And this forces large defences from the opponent, just in case the P blinks into the base.. Ways to overcome it: - Remove Blink.. (Which basially turns the Stalker into the Dragoon) - Drain all Shields when it Blinks, which makes it weaker when blinked into enemy bases. (As suggested by Fishgle) - Make Blink unable to blink up or down of cliffs. (Either both, or just one of the ways) Still a strong ability in combat. - Decrease range of Blink so its harder to get the whole army up cliffs (as suggested by purakushi) @Dragooon/Stalker/Immortal They are still too similar to each other, even if one unit is slow and have high damage, while the other is fast and weak. Kinda like Roach and Hydra. I don´t mind having basic units in the game that can be A-moved. But no need for the races to have different A-move units that overlap in many ways. It would be more elegant to have 1 core ranged Protoss unit, or units that are very seperated from each other and used in different ways for different purposes. And so far I have not been able to make the Immortal unique compared to the Stalker, despite if an extra ability or not is added to it. Having both the Dragoon and the Stalker in the game would been even harder to fit into the game! | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
In terms of balance, Stalkers were a problem a couple of months ago. At that time they were the core ranged unit. It was strong as hell and had superior mobility. All that in one unit. Then I reintroduced the Immortal in september. My intention was to let the Stalker be a weaker more mobile unit, while the Immortal was the slow strong unit. But the Immortal has caused a lot of problems because of hardened shield vs siege tanks + spider mines. And I have come to the point where I doubt that both stalker and immortal can be in the same race while still feeling interesting, unique and bla bla. They just overlap too much and I consider to replace the Immortal. Thats why I am concerned again. Shall the basic ranged unit for Protoss be a swift and mobile unit (Stalker) or be a slower tougher more badass unit (Dragoon) ? Maybe the Stalker can be balanced to both be mobile and strong. I just had problems with that earlier. | ||
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