EPTbanshee was a really vool addition btw.. good work !
[A] Starbow - Page 164
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
banshee was a really vool addition btw.. good work ! | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
- Drain all Shields when it Blinks, which makes it weaker when blinked into enemy bases. (As suggested by Fishgle) - Decrease range of Blink so its harder to get the whole army up cliffs (as suggested by purakushi) Range of blink should be no more than 2, but I think even less is better (1.5) -- should test the minimum range of blink required to blink up a cliff. The blink range should be just enough so that the unit can be blink-microed back during a battle but not quite strong enough to void terrain advantages. The draining of all shields when blinking will further make Protoss players to think twice when either blinking into bases or blinking aggressively in a fight. In addition, please note that blink micro from SC2 is used when stalkers have no more shields, so, for the best microers, this will not change anything for during battles. In fact, it will force Protoss players to be even more precise during these blink-micro battles, since they do not want to blink back too soon. With these two changes for blink, the stalker can be modified to be more like the dragoon (slower, stronger, increased range, with moving shot). As much as I love (and hate) the dragoon, it does not need to be in the game, anymore. Essentially, the stalker is a new and improved dragoon. So, without blink, stalkers are essentially dragoons, but once they have blink, they just have a bit more survivability if blink-microed correctly yet not completely voiding terrain advantage (at least with an extreme risk). I think this works well (for both players in the matchups) against Terran nerve jammer and Zerg dark swarm. Protoss can either blink out of the two spells or they can just move out (or stay there, I guess lol), but the fact that blink takes away their shields increases the precision and decision-making needed for the spell. Terran and Zerg can try to "force" a blink out of the Protoss when the spells are used in the correct position and time. These changes may help in PvP, too. At the moment, carriers are basically unstoppable (unless you have more carriers, of course) even without immortals protecting them from stalkers. Longer ranged stalkers (even if with less ranged blink) that are stronger and deal more damage to larger units may prove to be a good response to carriers. Basically, this allows Protoss ground to have a chance against carriers. Finally, these two changes provide very tweakable areas for Protoss that provide several layers of balanceability. The amount of shields that blink drains does not necessarily have to be all of it. HP/shields/damage of stalker as well as blink range can be fine tuned. While this new stalker can still be a-moved, it scales very well with better control and decision-making. I think that the difference in skill for the use of the stalker will be very noticeable while not losing any of both the dragoon's and stalker's fun qualities. | ||
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vrumFondel
Russian Federation42 Posts
I have an idea about problem with stalker-dragoon-imm in game. Let's there would be 1 core unit dragoon which have stats like 180 hp+shields 16dmg and when player builds robo facility it could be morphed into imm (maybe redesign imm a bit like he has for example 80 shields and 2 modes: in one he deals big damage against armored but have ordinary shields and in another it have hardened shields but small damage it would be interesting dilemma for player where use each of them). And when the twilight council is built goon can morph into stalker which would be mobile and fast have blink and have a bonus damage for huge air units like bc's or carriers (somebody said and i agree that toss has some problems to counter them). I think this inspire more decision making for toss in middle game and increase flexibility for race. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:05 vrumFondel wrote: Hi everyone! I have an idea about problem with stalker-dragoon-imm in game. Let's there would be 1 core unit dragoon which have stats like 180 hp+shields 16dmg and when player builds robo facility it could be morphed into imm (maybe redesign imm a bit like he has for example 80 shields and 2 modes: in one he deals big damage against armored but have ordinary shields and in another it have hardened shields but small damage it would be interesting dilemma for player where use each of them). And when the twilight council is built goon can morph into stalker which would be mobile and fast have blink and have a bonus damage for huge air units like bc's or carriers (somebody said and i agree that toss has some problems to counter them). I think this inspire more decision making for toss in middle game and increase flexibility for race. Sounds like fun, can't say it would work but it would be cool to try out. Man, feels like we are blizzard R&D here (hopefully better.....) | ||
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vrumFondel
Russian Federation42 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:52 Xiphias wrote: Sounds like fun, can't say it would work but it would be cool to try out. Man, feels like we are blizzard R&D here (hopefully better.....) There could be some variants like morph 2 goons to 1 imm for balance or morph will require some additional supply ofc 1 imm can't cost same supply as 1 goon. Also ofc grade for range must involve on imms and stalks too without it they must have poor range. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
>>> Nullifier <<< ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8cvri.jpg) Nothing in the Protoss race manipulates the shield for units or buildings. So the starting spell looks like this: The Nullifier can activate or deactivate a protective shield. If so, it can not move or do anything else, just like the Warp Prism. Protoss units (and maybe buildings too) near the Nullifier regenerates a high value of shield per second. It can be used in combat to make Protoss units more durable. It can also be used after combat to replenish shield quicker. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v6nle.jpg) IF this spell makes it into the game, then the normal shield regeneration of Protoss units need to be a bit slower. Otherwise there is no point in having a "shield battery" if P units regenerate quickly anyways. An alternative version can be that the Nullifier creates the shield at an area for X seconds. All P units inside that area regenerates. If I make Blink drain all shield from the Stalker, maybe will this spell be a nice tool to use for "reloading" the Stalkers.. Alternative efffects for this spell: + Show Spoiler + If the shield regeneration is redundant, maybe can the Nullifier shield manipulate something else: - increase energy regeneration - speed up attack speed - speed up time for archon morph and warp in? - make abilities cooldown reload faster? - slow enemy units/buildings/stuff? Void Shell (Moved from the Dark Archon and researchable at the Robotics bay) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZEKSt.jpg) I can say it again for those who do not know: Void Shell makes up to 5 units NOT auto-attacked by the enemy for 60 seconds. As soon as a Void Shelled unit recieves damage, Void Shell is removed and the unit becomes normal again. The intention of this spell was to strengthen this important gameplay concept: --> A smaller force shall be able to do damage vs a larger enemy army. Void Shelled units can deal damage before the enemy notices or reacts. Its a spell that purely depends on human reactions and multitasking since it changes no gameplay values. The spell has been in the game since the summer but has rarely been used. Maybe because it has been on the Dark Archon and has been a very late game spell. If Void Shell is moved to a mid-game caster, and P no longer has Immortals, maybe will it see more play. I imagine that it can be a good tool to assualt Terran spider mines + siege tanks or lurker contains. I know that many of you are very skeptical to this spell. I just want to give it a try. If it indeed is not good for the game, I will replace it. Hallucination from BW is a likely candidate. The third and final spell is Stasis Field. (Moved from Arbiter and researchable at the Robotics bay) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T4v8E.jpg) Stasis Field is an old BW spell that freezes a lot of units in an area. They can neither move, attack, use abiilities or anything. But most importantly, they can not take any damage either! So they are "frozen" on the battlefield until the spell times out. The Nullifier version will effect maybe up to 3 units. So it is good vs powerful targets, like enemy Carriers, Archons, Battlecruisers, Siege tanks, Vessels, Broodlords, Ultralisks etc. Its not as effective vs hordes of zerglings, marines and so on.. Attack I consider to give the Nullifier an attack. But I want the attack to have a reason to exist, so its not a pointless mediocre attack.. Either some kind of damage bonus vs certain armor types.. or when the Nullifier attacks an enemy unit, that unit can not attack.. or something.. Hmm.. What about the other spellcasters for P? As I have mentioned, if the Nullifiers makes it into the game I will remove the Dark Archon. (The Dark Archon spells will be moved) The High Templar will have: Psi Storm and Feedback. (Feedback currently works like this: for each point of energy drained from an enemy caster, all nearby enemy units take that damage too.. This is to give players more reasons to keep their armies seperated.) Dark Templar can be morphed into Archons again. Arbiter - Cloak field, Mass recall and Vortex. Maybe will I make Vortex NOT effect massive units, to futher seperate it from Stasis field. You cast vortex to clean up all small annoying stuff on the battlefield while Stasis takes care of the big guys. BUT WHATS THE POINT OF THIS?!?! Just remove the annoying Immortal. No need to add another caster!11!!!!! The robotic facility will feel naked with only 3 units to produce: observer, warp prism and reaver. By removing the Dark Archon aswell, and instead move its spells to the Nullifier and High Templar, we get a caster on each tech building AND at different stages of the game. The Nullifier is an early/mid game caster. High Templar is a midgame/lategame caster Arbiter is a very lategame caster. Stargate tech will unlock: Corsair, Void ray, Carrier and Arbiter Templar Archives will unlock: High Templar, Dark Templar and Archon Robotic tech will unlock: Observer, Warp Prism, Nullifier and Reaver. Thoughts? | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
- Drain all Shields when it Blinks, which makes it weaker when blinked into enemy bases. (As suggested by Fishgle) - Decrease range of Blink so its harder to get the whole army up cliffs (as suggested by purakushi) as explained in my previous post? I do quite miss dragoon shot and think it can be implemented for the stalker. It would still work well with the said nullifier. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Sounds like a cool idea, but it would look weird. There is no animation or models for a transformation like that. @purakushi Anything that increases the micro potential of units are my friends. So the Dragoon shot can surely be added to the Stalker. (Although I am not completely sure how the Dragoon shot worked in BW) Drain shield sounds like an interesting idea. It adds more depth to the decison and it makes the Stalker weaker when blinking into enemy bases. The negative part, as I can think of, is the "oh shit"-factor. Blink is an instinct. Players just do it. I think it will take some time before players get used to NOT blink as soon as they can. But its doable. I will consider it more before I add it though. Is it the best solution if the goal is to prevent/make it harder for players to blink into enemy bases? I am not sure that decrease range of blink will help that much. As long as Stalkers can blink into enemy bases, players will do it, despite if the range is shorter and it requires more micro. Furthermore, I think decreasing the range might limit the efficency of Blink in other situations too. If the point is to prevent Stalkers from blinking into enemy bases, the easiest way would be to make them unable to blink up or down cliffs. If so, P would depend more on drops, Arbiters with recall and warp in.. Blink would be useful in combat and for movement.. The negative thing is the "wtf-factor.." Why can´t I blink up or down that cliff?!?!?11111 >.< | ||
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Von
United States363 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:55 purakushi wrote: @Kabel, what do you think about including both - Drain all Shields when it Blinks, which makes it weaker when blinked into enemy bases. (As suggested by Fishgle) - Decrease range of Blink so its harder to get the whole army up cliffs (as suggested by purakushi) as explained in my previous post? I do quite miss dragoon shot and think it can be implemented for the stalker. It would still work well with the said nullifier. These proposed changes to the Stalker - of all the changes I've seen proposed over the past few days - stand out the most to me. I like it | ||
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Kakaru2
198 Posts
On November 25 2012 07:09 Kabel wrote: If the point is to prevent Stalkers from blinking into enemy bases, the easiest way would be to make them unable to blink up or down cliffs. If so, P would depend more on drops, Arbiters with recall and warp in.. Blink would be useful in combat and for movement.. The negative thing is the "wtf-factor.." Why can´t I blink up or down that cliff?!?!?11111 >.< This is a great idea if it can be implemented. Main complaint about blink/colossus is that they negate terrain. I read a couple of days ago a blog here on Tl about the limitations on map design imposed by the units that can negate height in a map. I don't think at all that blinking up/down is something that strange or that will cause confusion. One other thought - why reintroduce the dragoon? Why not keep stalker model, get rid of blink and increase health/shield? In regards to unit model and pathfinding i find stalker much more entertaining. My grip with it is that is too fragile due to blink. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
BUT WHATS THE POINT OF THIS?!?! Just remove the annoying Immortal. No need to add another caster!11!!!!! The robotic facility will feel naked with only 3 units to produce: observer, warp prism and reaver. By removing the Dark Archon aswell, and instead move its spells to the Nullifier and High Templar, we get a caster on each tech building AND at different stages of the game. The Nullifier is an early/mid game caster. High Templar is a midgame/lategame caster Arbiter is a very lategame caster. Stargate tech will unlock: Corsair, Void ray, Carrier and Arbiter Templar Archives will unlock: High Templar, Dark Templar and Archon Robotic tech will unlock: Observer, Warp Prism, Nullifier and Reaver. (11 non core units) ---Kabel I feel as though this is a very well rounded set of units for each tree. The Immortal only fit in the game for lore purposes. BW Protosses didn't need an Immortal Tank Buster A-move unit to beat Terran mech. It just GAVE protoss an extra unit, which completely messed with the line up. The Immortal made 12 non-core units and filled an unnecessary purpose. Correct decision: scrap the Immortal. For some observational BW comparisons: BroodWar Protoss Tech Paths (11 non core units) Stargate { Corsair : Scout : Carrier : Arbiter } ---Useless Scout replaced with the surgical strike Void ray Templar { High Templar : Archon : Dark Templar : Dark Archon } ---Templar loses a spell caster that was rarely used =_= Robotics { Observer : Shuttle : Reaver } ---The warp prism in an amazing upgrade from the shuttle and has an extremely cool dynamic with the core army. ---The Nullifier gets added to Robotics to replace Dark Archons, and serves as the Protoss line of DEFensive spells. Offense / Defense H.Templar / Nullifier : Protoss Infestor / Swarm Gaurd : Zerg Ghosts / Science Vessels : Terran : I think can make a case for both and or either offense and defense.... --- Ghost has 2 ATK spells (EMP / NUKE) and 1 DEF (LockDown) Vessel has 2 DEF spells (TURRET / JAMMER) and 1 ATK (IRRADIATE) --- --- Protoss also have the Uber Spell caster in the Arbiter, but that fits in well with the fact that protoss have the most advanced technology. Terrans also have the awesome sauce NUKES and zerg.... can make thousands of units at once blaarrgh --- At this point, I think it's safe to say that each race has enough symmetry and diversity in terms of design. Roll with this build, and from here out I think we can just focus more on 'balance' instead of 'design'. Could we see if this build will stabilize for a few weeks before any more major changes. Keeping in mind that no one playing this is Code S level pro GM god-like... yet >:} | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
Stalker is not 'purely' for aestheic purposes. The objective is to take the best of BW AND SC2. The stalker itself is a more interesting unit than the dragoon. The immortal is the cause of our current design issues. "remove dark archon and immortal and put in nullifier no other needless complications." | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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fietstas
Netherlands43 Posts
this means its absolutely essential that nullifiers have an attack or zealots will be extremely common in every protoss matchup. just a count on the amount of units that can deal damage vs casters, exluding drop units (equal in all races) and detection units (i'm being nice to the terrans here by counting the science vessel since it's a caster) terran tier 1 marines, firebats, medics 2:1 tier 2 vultures, tanks, ghosts, banshees, vikings, science vessel 5:1 tier 3 golliaths, battlecruisers 2:0 total 9:2 - science vessel can deal damage, medic can only support zerg - queens don't count they're a macro/base defense mechanic. tier 1 zerglings, hydras, baneling 3:0 tier 2 lurker, infestor, mutalisk, scourge, corruptor 4:1 tier 3 ultralisk, broodlord, swarm guardian, 2:1 total 9:2 - infestor can deal damage, swarm guardian can only support protoss tier 1 zealot, stalker 2:0 tier 2 nullifier, corsair, void ray, high templar, dark templar 3:2 tier 3 reaver, carrier, arbiter, archon 3:1 8:3 high templar can deal damage, nullifier AND arbiter can only support another problem that arises from moving the caster to the nullifier is that dark archons were the last thing that protoss could do against ghosts. high templar are too slow, fragile, and biological so they will be sniped and/or emp'd easily while dark archons are mobile and have more shields so they will be more likely to get a feedback on the ghost. nullifiers are mechanical and will be able to be locked down. a nerf to ghosts (since they hard counter any protoss unit) (i suggest moving emp to the science vessel) could fix this problem though. lastly the nullifier name is silly, it doesn't nullify anything, nullifying implies that it shuts things down, while it's primary ability is a shield boost. so maybe name it Contegor (Contego is latin for shield, cover, protect) | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
What if you buff stalkers but put blink on templar archives so you make blink more of a mid game spell and take out a lot of the all-in capabilities. This way you could make stalkers stronger without having a bunch of problems with blink allins. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
On November 25 2012 07:09 Kabel wrote: @purakushi Anything that increases the micro potential of units are my friends. So the Dragoon shot can surely be added to the Stalker. (Although I am not completely sure how the Dragoon shot worked in BW) Drain shield sounds like an interesting idea. It adds more depth to the decison and it makes the Stalker weaker when blinking into enemy bases. The negative part, as I can think of, is the "oh shit"-factor. Blink is an instinct. Players just do it. I think it will take some time before players get used to NOT blink as soon as they can. But its doable. I will consider it more before I add it though. Is it the best solution if the goal is to prevent/make it harder for players to blink into enemy bases? I am not sure that decrease range of blink will help that much. As long as Stalkers can blink into enemy bases, players will do it, despite if the range is shorter and it requires more micro. Furthermore, I think decreasing the range might limit the efficency of Blink in other situations too. If the point is to prevent Stalkers from blinking into enemy bases, the easiest way would be to make them unable to blink up or down cliffs. If so, P would depend more on drops, Arbiters with recall and warp in.. Blink would be useful in combat and for movement.. The negative thing is the "wtf-factor.." Why can´t I blink up or down that cliff?!?!?11111 >.< tl;dr 1. Stalkers should be more like dragoons. 2. Blink should be more for defending/surviving rather than aggression, however, still allow it at extreme risk and during very particular instances. -BW dragoon shot is essentially slow acceleration into fairly slow projectile. The projectile should be very noticeable, too. The good range (projectile stays in the air for a good amount of time) and long cooldown on the shot made dragoons be microed the way they are. -I do not think that is a negative part of drain shield. The reason it may be an instinct just to blink away is that SC2 units are so fragile, especially the SC2 stalker. A big "problem" with SC2 is that units do not feel like individual units; stalkers are always grouped, and they do not have any substance. In BW, units lasted much longer, and one unit (especially as it should be for Protoss) really seemed to contribute. In SC2, this is not the case; a combination of things just makes units die very quickly (we all know this, that's why we're here XD). (You can actually tell which unit got the kill in BW. Casters would actually check kill counts on individual units, because the units were memorable.) This makes players scared when using such a fragile unit like the stalker. Instead of a mobile, fragile unit, we should have something more akin to the dragoon. In its most basic form, the new stalker basically would be a dragoon: relatively slow compared to the normal stalker but tougher and does more damage to armoured/larger units than light/smaller units. Apologies, I was not very clear. I suggested the low blink range not specifically for preventing cliff/blinking into enemy bases but so that it does not break a well positioned army (assuming the stalker is as strong as a dragoon, relatively). After blink is researched, the dragoon does not become super mobile like stalkers do. Instead, blink would just further increase their survivability. We all want a terrain/map control based game, and too strong of a blink negates that. On top of its draining shield, blink with low range will not void terrain control. Furthermore, it will still allow players to blink-micro back, which is fun to watch/perform. With the drain shield, blink will be more skill-based than in SC2. Basically, the new blink stalker accomplishes 2 things: 1. Still allow blink micro 2. Can not just blink into a tank line While, yes, it is still possible to blink up terrain, I do not think this negates positional play like we are thinking it does. It did in SC2, because stalkers can just blink in, snipe a few things, and blink out. However, we have greatly increased the risk of blinking up into an enemy's base. Shield is gone. Because of low blink range, stalkers have to be really careful where they go, because, if they want to survive, they have to be really close to a cliff. You have probably seen/experienced 2 instances of blinking into someone's base: 1. Doing some amount of damage and blinking out. 2. Doing some amount of damage and you happen to trap yourself or your opponent traps you and then you try to blink out of danger, but your stalkers are not close enough to the cliff. The risk of #2 happening greatly increases. On top of that, shield is drained. Only the better players will pull this off, and I think this will provide an interesting dynamic to the game while not being too free for the Protoss to do like it is in SC2. It does not break defenders advantage, because stalkers lose so much when blinking. The advantage is still the defender's. In fact, it may actually be better for the Protoss just to attack head on! It is late, and I just drove 4.5 hours. I hope this makes sense; I may add more later. I am excited for whatever the final changes are, though.  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Any more major changes in design? If everything works well with the Nullifier, I feel very satisfied with the design of the races. These are the only following areas of the races that I consider to redesign: - Void ray (Its a decent unit, but for many reasons I have never been a fan of it) - Spider mines (I am not satisfied with the way it works. I will write a post about this matter later) - Energize for Medics (Its a dull and rather uninteresting spell.) - Auto-turret for Science Vessel - Combat shield (I will see if it can do something else than just give a HP bonus) - Observer (Its only a small adjustment. I will write about this later) - Hydra range upgrade. - Dark Swarm Wow! Hold your horses! Whats wrong with Dark swarm + Hydra range? + Show Spoiler + I like when upgrades changes or greatly effects the way units can be controlled. Zergling speed, Burrow, Blink, Siege tech, Cloak etc all lets the player use the units in a new way. There are few upgrades in Starbow that just gives a flat bonus that has a small impact on the interaction of the unit. Stalker range upg gives + 2. But that allows Stalkers to hit-and-run and out micro units. Marines + 1 range upg is crucial for Bunker survival vs Stalkers. The Hydra range upg is... ok. But its not that interesting. Hydra movement upg is almost always better to get. So I consider to give Hydras another upgrade that affects an other area. Dark Swarm is cool. The only thing I do not like is the messy feeling it creates on the battlefield. It affects both friendly and enemy units under it, which means that sometimes players, and even I, do not know what will deal damage vs what. It also makes Swarm Guardian + Hydras a bad love story. So I consider to make Dark Swarm only affect Zerg units. @Fietstas and the number of damage dealing units for P Good point regarding the number of damage dealing units for the races. But keep in mind that Arbiters actually have a small attack. I do consider to give the Nullifier an attack. Probably an attack that.. well.. nullifies something ^^ Since the Immortal has been removed I will shift some of the power from it to the Stalker. I plan to give it a dmg boost vs armored, which will make P able to deal with Banshees, Carriers, Battlecruisers etc better now. @Blink I will think more about it and experiment with it in the editor. Some last questions: - Anyone knows how to recreate the Dragoon shot from BW? (Or something similar that adds more micro to Stalkers) - Any ideas what the Nullifiers attack could do? Useful vs what units? AoE? Add a buff to the enemy? - More name suggestions for the Nullifier please. (Unless I make it nullifiy something) Contegor has been suggested | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
Also, personally I think auto-turret in it's current form is neat, especially in TvT. I like how it is a simple unit that forces a reaction. It's like a single unit void shield. | ||
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