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On November 26 2012 03:37 Kabel wrote:
The dragoon never had a moving shot, what on earth?
Yeah, I know. People have just been calling the way dragoons move and shoot "moving shot". It is basically just super slow stutter stepping for dragoons. Repositioning of units after each shot, orb walking (from DotA), stutter stepping -- call it what you will. All units can do it to some extent, but dragoons made it "famous", I guess. Standard micro associated with the dragoon. ><
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Kabel, the front pictures are so out-dated lol. It's pretty bad. Maybe you should just remove the unit ones at least. It still has the old inject, forcefield on HT, emp on vessle, wraiths. They arn't really useful for new players.
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Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_Acceleration 7
Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_MaxSpeed 12
Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_MinSpeed 5
You changed this in the Mover of the Projectile: Weapon - Stalker ?
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On November 26 2012 14:43 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_Acceleration 7
Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_MaxSpeed 12
Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases_MinSpeed 5 You changed this in the Mover of the Projectile: Weapon - Stalker ?
Should be that, yep. I'll just describe how I get there:
Go to Data editor > search for "stalker" under the Units tab > Stalker (Stalker) > Movers > StalkerWeapon (Stalker Weapon).
The fields should be there. Default values are 3200, 18.75, and -1, respectively.
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>>> New patch <<<
I can only predict if my changes will make the game better. The only way to try it in the reality is to publish it. This patch contains both design changes and balance changes. Some of you will like it. Others will hate it. Thats how it goes.
Design changes
The Immortal is replaced by the Nullifier.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b7Gk2.jpg)
It costs 125/100 and is built at the Robitics Facility. It can attack both air and ground in the same way as a Sentry can. It deals low damage but as long as it hits an enemy armored unit, that unit can not attack back. I imagine that this attack can be used for some nice micro scenarios.. or it might be the most annoying thing ever ^^
The starting spell is called Null Shield. Costs 25 energy and then drains 1.5 energy every second. Nearby units and building will regenerate 6 shields per second. The Nullifier can not move or do anything when the shield is active.
(You can not deploy Nullifiers shield close to each other. They must be spread out over the battlefield.)
Chrono Shell can be upgraded at Robotics bay. Makes 5 units NOT auto-attacked by the enemy. Just as Void Shell did for the Dark Archon.
Stasis Field can also be researched. Puts up to 3 units in a stasis field. They can not attack, move or take damage.
Dark Archon is removed.
Dark Templar can morph into Archons again.
High Templar casts Feedback and Psi Storm.
Arbiter casts Mass Recall and Vortex. The latter do not effect massive units...
Infested Creep upg for Zerg makes Overlord creep no longer give +2 armor. Instead it increases damage by 20% for units and buildings. So if Z wanna have a better defence, just position a Overlord over the spine crawlers and lurkers.. Or stronger drop.. I felt that +2 armor overlapped with the new Nullifiers shield ability.
Balance changes
Zerg
Z is very vulnerable in the early game due to their slow larva production. Hydralisks just sucks in small numbers. Many players says Zerglings do not feel like Zerglings due to their mediocre attack speed.
Queens attack speed has been nerfed for a long time. That value is now reverted to the normal value.
Zerglings now have attack speed 0.55 instead of 0.6. (They deal more damage)
Hydralisks now start with 5 range instead of 4. (So they can shoot, back away, shoot a bit better on creep.)
Hydralisks now have 2 upgrades: Speed upg and Organic Carapace that gives +20 life.
I am aware that Hydras are suppose to be fragile glass cannons. Their standard 80 HP worked well in BW. But Stalkers are better vs them in Starbow compared to Dragoons vs Hydras in BW, Corsairs can lift them up, Storm is smart-casted, Reavers are even more badasses now.. Marines + stim is stronger now, nerve jammers nerves the shit out of them. even banshees and Vultures defeat them..
There are many more threats vs Hydras than in BW. Also consider the slow larva spawn rate of Zerg. Hydras will still be fragile though. 2 siege tank shots kill them, 1 storm, 1 reaver shot.. It just incraeses their durability a bit vs zealots, vultures, banshees, stalkers, marines etc. I am curious to try this.
Ultralisk armor increased from 1 to 2. Damage increased from 20 to 30.
Protoss
Since the Immortal has been removed, I have given stalkers +3 dmg vs armored and reduced their attack speed from 1.75 to 1.5 seconds.. They will be better vs mutalisks, banshees, battlecruisers, carriers, vultures, yea well.. a bit better vs everything since they are now the main ranged unit.
Stalkers vs Stalkers will likely be the common core unit composition in PvP since there is no early "counter" to them, like Immortals were. To make Zealots more viable I have increased their shields by 20. Zealots are the tankers, Stalkers the damage dealers. (Keep in mind that the Zerglings recieved a big attack speed boost and Hydras more starting attack range and +HP upgrade.)
Protoss units regenerate 1 shield per second when not in combat, instead of 2. This will encourage the use of the "shield battery" at the Nullifier. Since both the Zealot and Stalker now have 80 shield each, the reward for bringing them into the shield battery is higher.
Terran.
Since Zerglings recieved an attack speed upg and Protoss a shield boost to Zealots, I gave marines +5 HP. Hurray! That means that it will take 1 more shot by the Zealot and the Stalker to kill them.
Vultures attack speed reduced from 1.75 to 1.5. (They attack faster) They do not 2 - shot Probes anymore. I know they did in BW, but there was no Banshee there.. Banshee harass + Vulture run-by that "shoots" spider mines and 2-shots Probes is a common way for P to die in the midgame : /
Firebats damage increased by 2 to deal with Zealots, Zerglings etc even better.
Spider mines deal 100% splash damage in a larger area.
Energize replenishes energy at a better rate.
EMP + Lockdown cost increased by 25.
Combat Shield removed. I added it a couple of weeks ago as a way to make bio more viable in TvT and TvP. It has not worked so well for that purpose. It mainly affected TvZ. I will try to rework the Combat Shield to see if it can add another effect to the marine instead.
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I did not change anything about Blink yet.
Its hard to get an overview due to all numbers and the lack of context. The full picture is not presented here. Join EU now and give it a try. I will send it to NA when I played some games so there are no critical flaws in it.
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On November 27 2012 02:28 Kabel wrote:
>>> New patch <<<
- I am really liking the sound of these changes. I am not sure about the nullifier completely stopping an armoured unit from attacking. Maybe halfing (or more) the target's attack speed? At the very least, it should not affect massive units. The nullifying attack seems more like an ability than just an attack. If it stays as is, it should drain the nullifier's energy or something.
- I like the name "void shell" more than "chrono shell". The latter makes me feel like it has to do with time.
- The infested creep sounds like a good try. I can see a lot of strategies revolving around it.
- While the actual number may need to be balanced, I agree with the hydralisk HP upgrade. Just copying over values from BW does not work in SC2 due to the ease and speed at which the game runs, among other reasons.
- No splash ultralisks felt very weak, so these changes are quite welcome.
- I think the stalker changes are good, but they may need a buff in HP/shield. Sorry I responded late to your question. Did you have a chance to put those changes in? It should work better now that attack speed is nerfed.
- +1 for the marine extra HP. Same reasoning for hydralisk HP upgrade.
- Hm, firebats already crushed zerglings. +2 buff in damage may be too much.
- Energise buff is good.
- Yay for spider mine buff! Though, I have a feeling it will not do much. They either die really quickly or do not react fast enough. Nevertheless, a welcome change.
- Why the increase in energy cost for both EMP and lockdown? Maybe just increase the energy cost for one of them?
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@Nullifiers attack
The Nullifier has a passive ability called Nullify that is activated when a armored unit is attacked. Generally I like distinct effects. On and off. All or nothing. I imagine that the attack can be used for:
- drop a Nullifiers near an enemy tank and target fire it..
- Chrono shell your Nullifiers and move forward to the lurkers to shut them down..
- In PvP, one Nullfiers stops one Stalker in combat.. Or use it vs Reavers etc..
I imagine that P can be rewarded depending on how they target fire the enemy units with the Nullifiers. But obviosuly it might be too good or too weird. Thats what playtesting is for 
I tried to design the Nullifier as a unit that can not kill anything by itself. But it can, in the hands of a skilled Protoss player, assist the army and manipulate enemy units. I think it has potential to bring some nice features into the game.
@Void shell/ Chrono Shell
I like Void Shell more too. But the Nullifier has no Void in it so that does not make sense..? And I have no imagination for names : /
@Stalker attack animation
I did not put that in yet
@Ghosts
Both spells felt very massable.
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Alright, I was testing this with the goliath AA attack, as well. I never found the goliath AA attack in Starbow to be very satisfying, and that is because the missiles just hit the target so quickly. I know it is mostly aesthetics, but it really gives visual feedback as to what is happening. I personally find it much cooler. It also promotes a bit more overkill, so more targeting is required for optimal use.
To get this effect, please go to Goliath > GoliathMissile under Movers:
There is going to be an expandable value called:
"Movement: CMoverMissile_MotionPhases"
You do not need to expand it (well, it may already be expanded, actually), but if you do, you will see there are 3 motion phases, indexed from 0 to 2. All you need to do is copy the following into the value for the whole list of motion phases.
+ Show Spoiler +(Throw|Guidance|Guidance):(7|7|0):(0|0|0):(2|2|-1):(-1|-1|-1):(-1|-1|-1):(2|19|19):(-1|-1|-1):(-1|-1|-1):(-1|-1|-1):(-1024|-1024|-1024):(0|0|0):(0|0|0):(Default|Default|Default):(Hookless|Hookless|Hookless):(Adaptive|Adaptive|Adaptive):(None|None|None):(0.2,0.55|0.56,1.5|0):(None|None|None):(None|None|None):(10|10|10):(LookAtTarget|None|None):(0,-1,1|0,0,0|0,0,0):(0|0|0):(0|0|0):(0,0,0|0,0,0|0,0,0):(0|0|0):(-1,-1|-1,-1|-1,-1):((-1|-1|-1|-1)|(-1|-1|-1|-1)|(-1|-1|-1|-1)):((-1|-1|-1|-1|-1)|(-1|-1|-1|-1|-1)|(-1|-1|-1|-1|-1)):(506.25|MAX|5568.75):(0|0|0):(0|0|0):(0|0|0):(0|0|0):(-1024|-1024|-1024):(-1,-1|-1,-1|-1,-1):(0|0|0):
Apologies if my explanation is bad. Please let me know if you need any help.
**EDIT: Fixed values for this as well as for stalkers (in my previous post). Use 19 instead of 12 max speed. Players may want stalker laser to be faster (maybe minspeed 6 but maxspeed 14, accel 4), but I think the goliath values are basically perfect.
***EDIT #2: Stalker values are now recommended at minspeed 6, maxspeed 14, and acceleration 4. Fixed previous post on page 165 of this thread to reflect this. Did plenty of testing, and I think all values feel quite good now. Thank you to the many stalkers, goliaths, BCs, corsairs, zerglings, and other units that gave up their lives to make this possible.
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I am pumped to try out these changes (I play toss..). I do have the same concern for the nullifiers attack, might be too strong, but I will playtest and report.
... imagen a late-game army of battlecruseres getting shut down by nullifiers
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Changes seem ok except for zealot change. The toss's a-move unit was already super strong. Tanky units just don't make good gameplay in the longterm.
I think it would be ok if terran could open with vultures, but with the void ray threat in existence, that is incredibly risky unless you want to get stuck on one base. Patch looks good but the voidray problem in early TvP is a huge problem to work around since it forces constant marine production instead of a smooth mech opening. With the huge buff to zealot shields (4 more shots for marines on top of the previous 2 shot increase) these marines really can't pay for themselves vs zealots since you don't want to be getting bio upgrades when you don't plan on longterm bio production.
Voidray just seems like a one matchup unit who's only purpose is to screw up the early game. One idea would be to put void on fleet beacon or let vikings crush voids in small numbers (which they currently don't do well at all). It's possible to work around the VR problem, but a unit who's only purpose is the early game of 1 match-up feels like it badly needs a redesign.
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I am concerned about the Void Ray too. It is an early potential threat but has quite limited uses in the remainder of the game.. It has a high suprise factor that can win the game early. And it can be useful vs massive units in the lategame. But since Corsairs lift off ground units, the Void Ray does not offer that much to the game..
Unfortunatly I have nothing to replace it with.. and if I remove it the stargate feels naked.. and if I redesign it, I am not sure what the purpose should be
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I fixed all the values for stalkers and goliaths. Should be final. They are noted in my previous post.
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On November 27 2012 05:34 Kabel wrote:
I am concerned about the Void Ray too. It is an early potential threat but has quite limited uses in the remainder of the game.. It has a high suprise factor that can win the game early. And it can be useful vs massive units in the lategame. But since Corsairs lift off ground units, the Void Ray does not offer that much to the game..
Unfortunatly I have nothing to replace it with.. and if I remove it the stargate feels naked.. and if I redesign it, I am not sure what the purpose should be
Can we nerf it into specialty unit until we figure out something? >.> Move it to fleet beacon or make it do really meh meh damamge to ground with a big bonus to massive units, maybe an upgrade to unlock the charge up ability which also gives it a big boost vs massive. Maybe name it Prismatic Amplifier. Give it like a late game nitch.
The void is limiting early game TvP opening development significantly since terrans are forced to get a fairly large amount of marines which are then almost totally useless in the mid game, even more so now with the zealot buff.
I think void in an anti BC anti corruptor role that can harass bases late game would be a nice place for the unit. Right now, though, zerg owns voids especially now with the hydra range buff. PvP voids are... lol. PvT late game voids get smashed by gols + turrets once you get your factory production up. The void is a terrible unit at every other point in the game except early TvP and I feel it is kinda obnoxious how it is holding back the matchup.
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I think making the void ray into a specialty/focused unit would be good. The corsair is very versatile, since it comes with the lift ability and is so quick. That already puts a versatile unit at the Stargate. I would prefer keeping the void ray without the need of a Fleet Beacon but make it do very low damage against non-massive (and/or non-armoured) units with a fair bonus to massive units (and/or armoured units), as Traceback suggested.
An unlock on the ability to charge up (with or without the inclusion of extra massive damage) would be interesting, too. Right now the fleet beacon has 2 bland but necessary (upgrades speed and range for all air units). An upgrade for charge up could prove to be interesting. Regardless, the void ray would be more interesting than it is now.
How about: Void ray stays on Stargate without Fleet Beacon. It does very low damage against non-armoured and fair (same?) damage against armoured. It gains charge up (i.e. extra damage against all types of units, including non-armoured) after an upgrade at Fleet Beacon. The charge up upgrade will also make it so that it does extra against massive, so the void ray does the most damage to massive among all the types of units it deals damage to after this upgrade. Of course, the massive damage bonus should be considerable yet balanced in relation to the cost/time of the upgrade.
EDIT: One thing that could work is just to keep the values the same but put a charge up upgrade at the Fleet Beacon. Void rays are manageable if you do not let them charge up. If you let a Terran player tech/build longer, they should be able to deal with void rays when they hit with charge up. This still keeps the Terran player honest (not being too greedy or teching super hard without getting some early units/defense or scout), but it may also need to be combined with a nerf to acceleration and movement speed. Acceleration nerf should come first, as it requires more micro and attention from the Protoss player. This change still gives the option of the Protoss to attack with void rays but either delayed or at a much greater risk (that can not do nearly as much damage).
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did you remember to bugfix hallucination supply cost ?
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On November 27 2012 06:20 Traceback wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 05:34 Kabel wrote:
I am concerned about the Void Ray too. It is an early potential threat but has quite limited uses in the remainder of the game.. It has a high suprise factor that can win the game early. And it can be useful vs massive units in the lategame. But since Corsairs lift off ground units, the Void Ray does not offer that much to the game..
Unfortunatly I have nothing to replace it with.. and if I remove it the stargate feels naked.. and if I redesign it, I am not sure what the purpose should be Can we nerf it into specialty unit until we figure out something? >.> Move it to fleet beacon or make it do really meh meh damamge to ground with a big bonus to massive units, maybe an upgrade to unlock the charge up ability which also gives it a big boost vs massive. Maybe name it Prismatic Amplifier. Give it like a late game nitch. The void is limiting early game TvP opening development significantly since terrans are forced to get a fairly large amount of marines which are then almost totally useless in the mid game, even more so now with the zealot buff. I think void in an anti BC anti corruptor role that can harass bases late game would be a nice place for the unit. Right now, though, zerg owns voids especially now with the hydra range buff. PvP voids are... lol. PvT late game voids get smashed by gols + turrets once you get your factory production up. The void is a terrible unit at every other point in the game except early TvP and I feel it is kinda obnoxious how it is holding back the matchup.
Yes please. Let's develop PvT without the early Voidray threat.
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EPT
