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@Kabel, it sounds like what you need is earlier BC viability.
That unit doesn't overlap with any of the other Terran air units.
Or... what effect do you feel that Terran needs that the viking and Goliath don't currently cover?
On the Immortal discussion, I have never really liked the fact that Immortals passively counter mech very hard through Hardened Shields.
That aspect of the Immortal is at best, mildly useful vs virtually every other unit comp in the game, but it single-handedly nullifies Siege Tanks and spider mines while the Immortal remains somewhat useful vs all other units.
In effect, the mere existence of the immortal is the biggest problem facing Terran mech in TvP.
So really, is the Immortal doing you favors or detracting from viable builds?
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Terran is perfectly fine if you take away the wraith and add the banshee. Better off for it. Viking as the splash anti air guy is perfectly fine.
T has some of the best anti air, stim marines/irradiate/vikings make quick work of mutas any day. Range Goliath absolutely demolish any heavy air units for a ridiculous cost efficiency.
T could really benefit from having more options like the banshee to add some variety to its MU's.
Currently T is pretty much BW T. Couldn't hurt to give it a little more sc2 (and mabye a little bit more BW in the case of the vulture spider mine).
As for the thor, I'd rather keep the gol any day. Thor still just looks so silly to me, but that's personal aesthetic taste.
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Thinking about it, you're right. Banshee does its job better and allow at the opponent the chance of no lose detector: wraith attack overseer, observer, vessel, and this is a bad thing. However, the banshee needs to be revised, it may be too strong vs Hydras. Change the attribute, from light to armored, could solve this problem.
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I fear a strong air to ground unit like the banshee could disrupt early game TvT into more of a coin flip matchup. TvT is really good right now with mech openers.
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On November 11 2012 02:57 Traceback wrote:
I fear a strong air to ground unit like the banshee could disrupt early game TvT into more of a coin flip matchup. TvT is really good right now with mech openers.
Scan. If you see port, build Marines or a gol. If you thought stim marine was ridiculously cost efficient vs banshees in sc2, think how fast banshees go down with SBOW stim.
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Add Banshee but don't stop there. Create more incentive for transition to Battle Cruiser. The tech tree behind a unit is just as important to its power as the power of the unit itself. Let the Protoss keep the Immortal, but now Terran's harass option transitions into a powerful sky army. You can solve both problems with one fix. Pick any number of ways to empower BC, tech time, range upgrade, yamato cannon. Alternately drop play may become more common TvP as a result. What do you think about increasing the effectiveness of Air Upgrades to strengthen drop and sky styles?
Remove Thor, its less effective than Goliath.
Remove Wraith, its less effective than multiple units it overlaps with.
Terran have very good detection and anti-air, Banshee shouldn't be game breaking.
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Right now you should start removing stuff rather than adding more. Once units won't overlap in terms of viability anymore, then you will have a better overview over which fields each race is lacking in.
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On November 11 2012 03:54 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 02:57 Traceback wrote:
I fear a strong air to ground unit like the banshee could disrupt early game TvT into more of a coin flip matchup. TvT is really good right now with mech openers. Scan. If you see port, build Marines or a gol. If you thought stim marine was ridiculously cost efficient vs banshees in sc2, think how fast banshees go down with SBOW stim.
The problem is, it could turn the match-up more coin flippy. If you are going 1 rax -> factory or gas -> factory and he goes banshee, it will be really hard to defend. However, if you go a marine opener, he goes one of the above builds you are behind. I guess fast starport could help stop it, however, if terran loses wraith and viking remains of armory (which i think it has to unless it gets nerfed) that wouldn't be an option.
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Here is my current thoughts on Terran Starport units.
Removing the Wraith in favor of the Banshee means the only thing being produced from a Starport without a Tech Lab is the Dropship, which feels a bit weird in my opinion, but I still like the idea of re-introducing the Banshee.
Maybe it is possible to keep both the Wraith and the Banshee by changing the way the Wraith is currently designed to be more similiar to the SC2 Viking. Remove Cloak from the Wraith, change its armor class from Light to Armored, reduce its movement speeed and increase its hitpoints and ground DPS so that it is more similiar to the SC2 Viking.
Something like 125 hitpoints (up from 120), 3.25 movement speed (down from 3.75 (Vikings in SC2 have 2.75) and around 7-9 DPS against ground targets. (landed Vikings have 12 DPS in SC2 and current StarBow Wraiths have 5 DPS).
I also think that the current Viking should lose its ability to land into a semi-Goliath.
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The solution to end all solutions: STRIKER
Kabel:
{
"The Wraith in BW was mainly used in TvZ. Otherwise it was a dead unit. In Starbow its mainly used in TvZ and sometimes in TvP to deny Warp Prism..."
"The Banshee in SC2 is used in all match-ups in all stages of the game - harass AND as a part of the army.. T could get 1 and still get a lot of efficency out of it.."
"The problem with wraiths are that they shoot air and ground. This means that their ground DPS can not be too high since they also cloak."
}
{2 + 2 = Fish}
Solution
{
Wraiths are now relatively cheap to get. (If they weren't before)
No cloak
No AtG (Specialized AtA. Details following.)
Speed upgrade replaces cloak upgrade (slightly lower base speed)
Wraith is now a specialized Anti-Air hunter. Codenamed: STRIKER
}
Reasoning
{@Kabel
You are right when you said that the Wraith really gets no love. The banshee had the potential to be effective at every MU at any stage, because it had a clearly defined specialty: sniping high priority ground targets (Workers, infestors, templar not as common but possible). Put a few of them together and you have decent anti ground fire support (Mech TvZ Thor Banshee Hellion vs Roach All In). The wraith's specialty is not as clearly defined, its more of a jack of all trades unit. But in order to keep it balanced, none of it's assets can be really powerful. (Cloak + High Speed + AtA and AtG = at least one of these has to be weak). It takes a BUNCH of them to really be effective at anything. By specializing the Wraith into a high priority AA fighter, we can afford to have a specialized high priority AtG bomber.
With this concept, a handful of wraiths would be able to chase down other specialized air targets (2-3 Wraiths > Void Rays, Science Vessels, Guardians, and of the ilk). The counter balance would be that the main fighters for each race should easily own wraiths in a straight fight. (2-3 mutas , 2-3 corsairs > 2-3 wraiths)
}
Problems and redundancies
{
The Viking now seems to overlaps as the main AA for Terran. However, note: Vikings do splash damage in the air. Meaning they would be good against the AtA threats that would easily roflstomppwnggnore pure wraith. In addition, Vikings can also provide GtG support (which is actually pretty decent against low hp targets surprisingly enough). Since we want Wraiths to be able to become mainline air superiority fighters, they should have a good amount of hp, able to tank some GtA fire to snipe a key target (Not individual hp, the same way a swarm of lings has a lot of hp put together, able to shrug off a loss or two, kill the target, and get out). To compensate, we would have to give the Wraith a slow fire rate to further emphasize its role as a air-superiority sniper, and punish players who think they can simply 2A their wraiths without micro (Stutter step in the air). A change to the viking could be to lower the viking's health in relation to its respective cost to wraiths. Also, the viking would have to have some effect that makes voidrays > vikings. I'm not sure what the current values are, but void rays should pwn vikings if wraiths pwn void rays. Micro, clumping, and spread should also have a significant impact on the battles to make it more spectator friendly and less rock-paper-scissors.
An interesting dynamic is that we now have a spammable(ish) fast AtA raider that is good against singular squishy targets, but weak against other mainline AtA and capital ships (Capitals tend to kill Wraiths quickly if I recall correctly), a fairly expensive AtA crowd control fighter that also happens to be effective vs capital ships (long range + bonus armored? confirm the bonus armored plz), and a moderately expensive AtG stealth bomber/raider that, like the wraith, is very good at targets that don't shoot back (cough* workers & ground casters *cough)(*). Then we have the spell caster/ detector and the capital ship....
And that random @$$ GtA walker that is purty gude vs other capitol ships to an extent.. (weak GtG)
}
SKY TERRAN THEORETICALLY IS NOW VIABLE (mid-late game)
Tl:dr
Wraith becomes the Terran mutalisk (AA only) with a speed upgrade.
(Fastest air? hmm... numbers worked out in testing)
Viking becomes a long range Valkyrie that can have some influence on the ground as well as anti capital ship. (People love to clump up Bloords, Carriers, and BCs ^^. Just ask Squirtle)
Banshee is added back into Starbow. Retains Cloak.
(I'm thinking a slight DPS buff for bigger engagements and nerfed HP to compensate. Or it could remain the exact same as is, but I think a slight change just to make it moar interesting and specialized.)
*Each race has a flying caster that so far have seen frequent use in every MU. (I'm counting the Warp prism since it's a transport that can also continuously influence the battle field. I would consider the medivac the same if it was in). The new wraith would encourage players to protect their airborne casters with mainline AA, or go pure PURE GtG and GtA which would make wraiths almost irrelevant. Both options diversify the strategy pool, which is a good thing. (Protoss might need an additional form of detection if it comes to the point where Wraith / Banshee snipe all observers.... Nah. Just adapt and get Corsair / Carrier + Cannon or Obs. Remember Corsair DT from BW ^^)
Also since there is no more cloak, I think Striker is better than Wraith. Striker feels like blunt: straight forward: sword type atk etc. Wraith feels like cunning: sneaky: DT style scythe and dagger action.
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On November 11 2012 10:43 asphyxia88 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here is my current thoughts on Terran Starport units.
Removing the Wraith in favor of the Banshee means the only thing being produced from a Starport without a Tech Lab is the Dropship, which feels a bit weird in my opinion, but I still like the idea of re-introducing the Banshee.
Maybe it is possible to keep both the Wraith and the Banshee by changing the way the Wraith is currently designed to be more similiar to the SC2 Viking. Remove Cloak from the Wraith, change its armor class from Light to Armored, reduce its movement speeed and increase its hitpoints and ground DPS so that it is more similiar to the SC2 Viking.
Something like 125 hitpoints (up from 120), 3.25 movement speed (down from 3.75 (Vikings in SC2 have 2.75) and around 7-9 DPS against ground targets. (landed Vikings have 12 DPS in SC2 and current StarBow Wraiths have 5 DPS).
I also think that the current Viking should lose its ability to land into a semi-Goliath.
semi-sniped by this guy o.O Post definately was not there while I was making my wall XD
re-edit: Holy crap people post fast on this thread.
edit: I dont post much. But when I do. I prefer Walls-of-Doom.
Stay thirsty my friends
sponsored by Dos-Equis Most Interesting Man In the World
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@kabel
remove wraith
add sc2 banshee with cloack upgrande.
Viking (valkyrie) not require armory and tech lab.
Viking hp and attribute (light, armored or neither) need to be revised.
This is the best solution.
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More thoughts:
1. Void shield change still isn't implemented.
2. Banshee/wraith w/e isn't going to fix the TvP problem.
You can spend 5+ minutes pushing across map so slow. You can kill most of his army, and he can just make 15 zealots and stop your push still, because mines really don't help and vultures don't kill zealots fast at all.If at any time he breaks the front of your push with one of these ways, you can get reset all the way back to your base, in for another 5 minute push. The skill required to execute the push compared to the skill to break it isn't even close because toss can focus all his attention on your spread out expansions while you have to defend that AND slow push tanks + turret + mines. Terran is pushed so hard for little mistakes while toss just isn't...
There is no one problem with TvP that you can say, it's because THIS is too weak. It's a combination of like 8 things that just make the matchup crappy in the mid/late game. This doesn't even include the early game crap while I have been able to crudely deal with. Maybe having to deal with/be safe against the early game shenanigans stops me from have a strong enough mid game. Regardless, the idea that you have to spend 5+ minutes pushing across the map mid game while toss gets to do anything he want, and the fact that he can just a move units and smash you (gl doing that with terran) at the smallest mistakes just makes the matchup feel very crappy.
This is besides the fact that you are forced into pretty much a single strategy early game, in order for the game to not be a coinflip, while toss can do almost any strategy/composition he wants. This seriously can't be how the matchup is suppose to work.
Unless something is fixed I'm not going to be playing anymore TvP. It's not fun and not productive for me in it's current form.
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Please, please god do NOT remove the Wraith in favor of the Banshee, and definitely not if the Viking is going to return as the primary AA unit.
Wraiths are one of my favorite additions to Terran in Starbow, and Banshees rub me the wrong way for several reasons. I don't have the time right now to write out a huge post but I'm begging you to reconsider something so drastic in the race that is currently the most complete.
If necessary for balance reasons, lower the cost of Wraiths, or the build times, so Terran doesn't have to invest so much in getting more out. But I think they are a far better designed unit all around, and much more fun to spectate, than Banshees and Vikings are.
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Maybe a wraith damage upgrade requiring an armory?
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@Banshee or Wraith
People wonder why I in this state of the development consider to replace units. Well, first of all, I am very satisfied with almost all units in all races. I think it looks very good. The only concerns I have:
- Wraith/Viking/Banshee
- Void ray (but there is nothing to replace it with so it will likely stay)
Besides this, there are no other units at this moment I consider to scrap or replace. Just a couple of ones that might need to be adjusted, like the Immortal and Baneling.
The reason I even consider to replace units is simpy due to the game experience. During the course of development I gain new insight from the games and feedback players provide me. I question the changes I have made. I wish I knew from the start exactly what would work or not. But I am no Dustin Browder.. ^^
Wraiths are ok. They can be balanced to fit in the game and be a fun unit. They were quite useful in BW, mainly in TvT and TvZ.
But Banshees are even more useful in SC2 in all match-ups for more reasons at more stages of the game, despite that they can not shoot air..
I just fear that I have replaced a very well designed unit (Banshee) with a bit more "narrow" unit. (Wraith)
Is that decision really for the greater good for Starbow?
But I will not replace anything now, or even at all. I just brought the discussion to hear your views on this matter.
@your ideas for the Wraith and Terran air units
I can not rename the Wraith into something else or change the way it functions.
If it looks like a Wraith, talks like a Wraith, moves like a Wraith, players expect it to be a Wraith.
It would be weird with a new name, or remove the cloak or remove the ability to attack ground.
Players are so familiar with the way classic units behave.
But I can play around with stats. Attack & movement speed, HP, cost, etc.
IF I replace the Wraith, I think something like this will be the most realistic scenario for Terran air (as some of you have mentioned)
Viking
Dropship
Banshee
Vessel
BC
- Dropship and Vikings are built at Reactor.
- Vikings cost and HP similar to SC2.
- Vikings move faster. (Maybe speed 3.25 or 3.5 instead of speed 2.75) (Mutalisks, Scourge and Corsair have speed 3.75)
- Vikings can transform faster.
- Vikings have long attack range, slow attack speed but decent damage. Since they have many small missiles with
each one dealing low damage, they are not so good vs heavy armor targets like BC, Carriers etc. Thats the Goliahts role!
- They can upgrade a splash attack to deal with clumped air units.
- They are weak in ground mode. Even a goliath is better for ground to ground combat!
1 Viking can, just like a Wraith, prevent Warp Prism + Reaver, or enemy Banshee.
Vikings with splash upgrade can deal with mass Mutalisks/Corsairs/enemy Vikings, and it can be decent vs clumped up Broodlords, Carriers etc too.. (Which forces spltting and seperation)
Since they move and transform faster they can be used for harassment, even though they are not supieror in that area..
Maybe will TvT get an extra edge with Banshees trying to snipe tanks and Vikings trying to claim air control and land on enemy tanks etc..
Goliaths are great vs single target large air units.
Vikings are better vs smaller air units.
The only thing I do not like about this is that Goliaths and ground Vikings will be quite similar. >.<
I will get a new patch up today mostly to adjust PvT a bit. It will NOT include any air change like this. Instead I encourage you all to play more with Wraiths. See what they are capable of doing in all match-ups. Help me explore it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 11 2012 19:55 Kabel wrote:
@Banshee or Wraith
People wonder why I in this state of the development consider to replace units. Well, first of all, I am very satisfied with almost all units in all races. I think it looks very good. The only concerns I have:
- Wraith/Viking/Banshee
- Void ray (but there is nothing to replace it with so it will likely stay)
Besides this, there are no other units at this moment I consider to scrap or replace. Just a couple of ones that might need to be adjusted, like the Immortal and Baneling.
The reason I even consider to replace units is simpy due to the game experience. During the course of development I gain new insight from the games and feedback players provide me. I question the changes I have made. I wish I knew from the start exactly what would work or not. But I am no Dustin Browder.. ^^
Wraiths are ok. They can be balanced to fit in the game and be a fun unit. They were quite useful in BW, mainly in TvT and TvZ.
But Banshees are even more useful in SC2 in all match-ups for more reasons at more stages of the game, despite that they can not shoot air..
I just fear that I have replaced a very well designed unit (Banshee) with a bit more "narrow" unit. (Wraith)
Is that decision really for the greater good for Starbow?
But I will not replace anything now, or even at all. I just brought the discussion to hear your views on this matter.
@your ideas for the Wraith and Terran air units
I can not rename the Wraith into something else or change the way it functions.
If it looks like a Wraith, talks like a Wraith, moves like a Wraith, players expect it to be a Wraith.
It would be weird with a new name, or remove the cloak or remove the ability to attack ground.
Players are so familiar with the way classic units behave.
But I can play around with stats. Attack & movement speed, HP, cost, etc.
IF I replace the Wraith, I think something like this will be the most realistic scenario for Terran air (as some of you have mentioned)
Viking
Dropship
Banshee
Vessel
BC
- Dropship and Vikings are built at Reactor.
- Vikings cost and HP similar to SC2.
- Vikings move faster. (Maybe speed 3.25 or 3.5 instead of speed 2.75) (Mutalisks, Scourge and Corsair have speed 3.75)
- Vikings can transform faster.
- Vikings have long attack range, slow attack speed but decent damage. Since they have many small missiles with
each one dealing low damage, they are not so good vs heavy armor targets like BC, Carriers etc. Thats the Goliahts role!
- They can upgrade a splash attack to deal with clumped air units.
- They are weak in ground mode. Even a goliath is better for ground to ground combat!
1 Viking can, just like a Wraith, prevent Warp Prism + Reaver, or enemy Banshee.
Vikings with splash upgrade can deal with mass Mutalisks/Corsairs/enemy Vikings, and it can be decent vs clumped up Broodlords, Carriers etc too.. (Which forces spltting and seperation)
Since they move and transform faster they can be used for harassment, even though they are not supieror in that area..
Maybe will TvT get an extra edge with Banshees trying to snipe tanks and Vikings trying to claim air control and land on enemy tanks etc..
Goliaths are great vs single target large air units.
Vikings are better vs smaller air units.
The only thing I do not like about this is that Goliaths and ground Vikings will be quite similar. >.<
I will get a new patch up today mostly to adjust PvT a bit. It will NOT include any air change like this. Instead I encourage you all to play more with Wraiths. See what they are capable of doing in all match-ups. Help me explore it.
+1
keep viking (valkyrie) with the mode ground-ground and air-to-air is beautiful. But if it is called the viking people can exchange for sc2 viking: this in starbow is just the opposite, is strong against small units (speed splash damage few) and weak against armored units. Change name in Valkyrie?
In T vs Z the terran has to choose: reactor valkyrie harass (for ovelords) or cloak banshee harass?
what is the counter to broodlord?
valkyries + vessels is good conposition.
while the work of sc2 vikings was replaced by goliath that works well.
In T vs P valkyrie vs dimensional prism and harass wolkers (with ground-ground mode), or banshee...
In T vs T banshee could revolutionize the game...
This change in my opinion, give more choices to play terran.
gl hf
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EPT
