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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
 , i'm just trying to help to balance the game). And I still think sc2 immortals have no place in starbow, either nerf this unit or remove it.And your point about vultures, their dps sucks imo =/. edit: oh and terran bio gets dominated by stalkers before you get stim and range up | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
Mairne medic tank with ghosts seems like it has some potential. I need to smooth it out though. Recall is insanely good. Vultures still have problems. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On November 08 2012 23:19 SolidSMD wrote: Perhaps the ghost is the answer indeed, but that means you're gonna need to go full bio to have enough ghosts, so the problem remains for mech. But still, terran will have to be a lot better than P to pull that off, reavers and storm are really hard to stop and not that hard to pull off, 1 reavershot and you easely get 10 marines. Also i don't see any viable harras for T with recall in the game (don't get me wrong, i love using it , i'm just trying to help to balance the game). And I still think sc2 immortals have no place in starbow, either nerf this unit or remove it.And your point about vultures, their dps sucks imo =/. edit: oh and terran bio gets dominated by stalkers before you get stim and range up One bunker gives you easily enough time to get stim, range, and shield. You can fit in ghosts with tanks. Too many tanks just makes you vulnerable vs zealot/immortal composition. Viable harrass is the hardest part. Vulture run bys, but that's counting on toss not paying attention. | ||
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
Plus, usually terran is gas strapped early mid game when drops would be most effective. I'm going to try to work on dropping more in both matchups though once I get my matchup frameworks solidified. I think some of the problems could be fixed map changes. Lunar and even Dae have almost impossible to take 3rds for terran vs protoss, especially with mech. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On November 08 2012 18:32 Danko__ wrote: I dont like idea of double atack for hydras at all. Will make hydras micro too similar to stalkers micro and hydras are fine already imho. You just control them in different way trying to utilize their full dps witchout stutterstep. Not double, x1.5. I originally suggested double only because I did not know the exact numbers for Hydra attack speed in Starbow and it could always be changed later, and Kabel shared your thoughts on that. I think the numbers he came back with were: 1.29 attack rate, 9 damage (+6 vs Armored). This looks really solid to me. Remember the main reason I suggested the change was that slower/stronger attacks waste more damage on overkill against a small surface area of targets, which would make flanking with Hydralisks more effective. I realize it's not really a big issue right now but it's something that could be done in the Editor very easily, whereas the rest of my ideas for Zerg at the moment would be a bit more involving. | ||
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On November 09 2012 02:31 SmileZerg wrote: Not double, x1.5. I originally suggested double only because I did not know the exact numbers for Hydra attack speed in Starbow and it could always be changed later, and Kabel shared your thoughts on that. I think the numbers he came back with were: 1.29 attack rate, 9 damage (+6 vs Armored). This looks really solid to me. Remember the main reason I suggested the change was that slower/stronger attacks waste more damage on overkill against a small surface area of targets, which would make flanking with Hydralisks more effective. I realize it's not really a big issue right now but it's something that could be done in the Editor very easily, whereas the rest of my ideas for Zerg at the moment would be a bit more involving. have increased the attack values and attack rate by 50% , while maintaining the same dps, even if the upgrades will make 33% less effective | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:24 JohnnyZerg wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 09 2012 02:31 SmileZerg wrote: Not double, x1.5. I originally suggested double only because I did not know the exact numbers for Hydra attack speed in Starbow and it could always be changed later, and Kabel shared your thoughts on that. I think the numbers he came back with were: 1.29 attack rate, 9 damage (+6 vs Armored). This looks really solid to me. Remember the main reason I suggested the change was that slower/stronger attacks waste more damage on overkill against a small surface area of targets, which would make flanking with Hydralisks more effective. I realize it's not really a big issue right now but it's something that could be done in the Editor very easily, whereas the rest of my ideas for Zerg at the moment would be a bit more involving. have increased the attack values and attack rate by 50% , while maintaining the same dps, even if the upgrades will make 33% less effective But they will also be more effective against units that start with a natural point of armor, I think it balances out. | ||
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
I really don't understand the fuss. Yes, in a perfect world immortals might actually be a considerable threat to mech. But it's not now. No one at this level has the control to make sure that the immortal is always shooting tanks, and not switching to spider mines (Which is why priority is so huge, make spider mines lower priority and suddenly immortals will be *much* better. They will target the tanks instead.) The biggest problem right now is warp prism harassment, Since reavers can shoot up/down cliffs, they can bypass a huge amount of defenses. This leads to a large amount of SCV's dying for generally zero cost (just the scarabs). I will continue to work on TvP but I really see no problem with it now. About mines. People really don't understand two things about them. 1) The high priority of the mines is extremely beneficial for the terran. Because of it, the entire protoss army will try to focus down. Because of the amount of health and quantity of the mines, they will tank a lot of damage. Suddenly all of those big-bad scary immortals are wasting their shots shooting mines instead of the tanks. 2) Because of the long burrow time, units will continue to attack it for longer. This part really is not super relevant, but it does not harm the terran. So overall, the point of mines during fights (Just like in BW TvP) is to tank damage and delay units. It is not meant to deal damage during a fight. About people complaining about one unit tanking the mines, you have to spread the mines! Do not clump them up so much. When armies get larger (When getting lucky with mines can be big) they will be big enough to attract mines from both sides, and not just one unit. If I come across any other big issues, I will post them. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On November 09 2012 07:34 Freeze967 wrote: @ About Mech TvP I really don't understand the fuss. Yes, in a perfect world immortals might actually be a considerable threat to mech. But it's not now. No one at this level has the control to make sure that the immortal is always shooting tanks, and not switching to spider mines (Which is why priority is so huge, make spider mines lower priority and suddenly immortals will be *much* better. They will target the tanks instead.) The biggest problem right now is warp prism harassment, Since reavers can shoot up/down cliffs, they can bypass a huge amount of defenses. This leads to a large amount of SCV's dying for generally zero cost (just the scarabs). I will continue to work on TvP but I really see no problem with it now. About mines. People really don't understand two things about them. 1) The high priority of the mines is extremely beneficial for the terran. Because of it, the entire protoss army will try to focus down. Because of the amount of health and quantity of the mines, they will tank a lot of damage. Suddenly all of those big-bad scary immortals are wasting their shots shooting mines instead of the tanks. 2) Because of the long burrow time, units will continue to attack it for longer. This part really is not super relevant, but it does not harm the terran. So overall, the point of mines during fights (Just like in BW TvP) is to tank damage and delay units. It is not meant to deal damage during a fight. About people complaining about one unit tanking the mines, you have to spread the mines! Do not clump them up so much. When armies get larger (When getting lucky with mines can be big) they will be big enough to attract mines from both sides, and not just one unit. If I come across any other big issues, I will post them. You do not realise the problem, it's not the damage output alone, it's that they just don't die, they tank like crazy (and lol, shiftclicking on tanks is not hard, no offence). The big point is that mech should theoretically have the better army in mid/lategame, since toss has the mobility and can expand everywhere while harrassing the terran, with the current build, in midgame, toss comes out with a better econ, an easier to control army, a stronger army and a more mobile army. Now you tell me how you think that's normal? When terran gets a 200/200 mech army together, you should have teched to carriers to counter them, but you don't have to, cause your army is still stronger. btw, even without immortals you could wipe out a terran mech army without air if you have good control. vultures don't do any dmg and siegetanks only get off one shot before zealots get close to them, you can blink onto the mech army aswell, storm it..., i'm not even including prismdrop onto the tanks. So in short, I don't see why we need immortals in the game, they're overkill. (And btw, I play toss, so this isn't a balancewhine if that's what you think) | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:32 SolidSMD wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 09 2012 07:34 Freeze967 wrote: @ About Mech TvP I really don't understand the fuss. Yes, in a perfect world immortals might actually be a considerable threat to mech. But it's not now. No one at this level has the control to make sure that the immortal is always shooting tanks, and not switching to spider mines (Which is why priority is so huge, make spider mines lower priority and suddenly immortals will be *much* better. They will target the tanks instead.) The biggest problem right now is warp prism harassment, Since reavers can shoot up/down cliffs, they can bypass a huge amount of defenses. This leads to a large amount of SCV's dying for generally zero cost (just the scarabs). I will continue to work on TvP but I really see no problem with it now. About mines. People really don't understand two things about them. 1) The high priority of the mines is extremely beneficial for the terran. Because of it, the entire protoss army will try to focus down. Because of the amount of health and quantity of the mines, they will tank a lot of damage. Suddenly all of those big-bad scary immortals are wasting their shots shooting mines instead of the tanks. 2) Because of the long burrow time, units will continue to attack it for longer. This part really is not super relevant, but it does not harm the terran. So overall, the point of mines during fights (Just like in BW TvP) is to tank damage and delay units. It is not meant to deal damage during a fight. About people complaining about one unit tanking the mines, you have to spread the mines! Do not clump them up so much. When armies get larger (When getting lucky with mines can be big) they will be big enough to attract mines from both sides, and not just one unit. If I come across any other big issues, I will post them. You do not realise the problem, it's not the damage output alone, it's that they just don't die, they tank like crazy (and lol, shiftclicking on tanks is not hard, no offence). The big point is that mech should theoretically have the better army in mid/lategame, since toss has the mobility and can expand everywhere while harrassing the terran, with the current build, in midgame, toss comes out with a better econ, an easier to control army, a stronger army and a more mobile army. Now you tell me how you think that's normal? When terran gets a 200/200 mech army together, you should have teched to carriers to counter them, but you don't have to, cause your army is still stronger. btw, even without immortals you could wipe out a terran mech army without air if you have good control. vultures don't do any dmg and siegetanks only get off one shot before zealots get close to them, you can blink onto the mech army aswell, storm it..., i'm not even including prismdrop onto the tanks. So in short, I don't see why we need immortals in the game, they're overkill. (And btw, I play toss, so this isn't a balancewhine if that's what you think) @ Immortals Because the protoss army does not spread out, a lot of splash damage occurs. The splash is crucial for taking down immortals. Terran's will not be pushing out before a very large army, so they do not have to worry about a lack of splash. About being attacked early, they should have enough defenses (Already sieged, good positioned tanks, and spider mines.) Vultures should also be targeting the immortals, reducing shields. Yes, most people won't be spending the time to focus the immortals with vultures, but it is a way. Most of the tanks will actually not shoot the immortals, so this will be very useful. A leftover army of just immortals is very easy to deal with. @ Midgame ? Let's look at BW, the only good source of how TvP mech is played out. The protoss acts like the zerg, they expand frequently and tries to get harassment done on the terran. I do not understand where you are coming from saying that the protoss army is able to fight effectively with a mech army. Yes, a protoss with a superior force will kill a mech army (duh). And yes, a equal protoss army that catches the terran unsieged will dominate them (again, duh). But if the terran has sieged, then the protoss army will not trade well at all. This is assuming the mech army has reached critical mass. If the terran pushed out before that, they just deserve to lose the army. It would be dumb to push out earlier. About Toss Econ, the terran has a very good harassment tool in the vulture, especially with their mines. The mines will do damage, if not kill, the defending units while the vultures can snipe probes. @ Carriers Carriers are only deadly when they are in huge numbers. If the terran let them get up to that size without doing something, then they deserved the loss. You have to attack at the point when 1-2 carriers are out, snipe them with golaiths, and kill their weakened ground army. This should be much easier since they will be investing so much into the carriers while the meching player still has their army. Yes, late game it is another story. But since they viking came it, it is much easier to deal with Carriers. Especially with ghosts. If a player if having trouble with the carrier transition, get ghosts to lockdown them. @Your last two sentences Prismdrop: There is a reason goliaths are there. They are amazing ground to air, and will snipe any prism nearby. If you are referring to early game, vultures are easily enough to deal with a prism. The zealots (which are the only good bombing unit) will get sniped as they land by the vultures, before the tanks can shoot. If they try to drop a stalker it will get mauled by a few shots, and will not kill the nearby tank. Yes, if the terran is stupid and decides to ball all of his tanks and die, then he will die. If the protoss invests in a prism (200 minerals for the prism, 400 for the zealots inside) suddenly their army is much smaller, and that was precious robo building time that they gave up for something ineffective. This is really only good very early game (when the terran shouldn't be pushing.) Blinking stalkers: Blinking stalkers onto the mech army is *great* for the Terran. Try it sometime. The splash on the stalkers is incredible. It is a great way to lose the army. The only scary part is when the protoss uses blink to flank on all sides. If they do this then yes, the terran will have a harder time. But I have never seen this done and I doubt I will. About Toss army being "easier, better, etc." Maybe the terran's you are playing just don't know how to play. This is the problem here. Most people who are offering balance suggestions are playing people not around their skill level. Even if they do know how, I don't understand how you got that. The Protoss army is only easier to control if they decide to one-a. If they do that and the terran into the traps I said earlier, then the terran screwed something else up. Imagine this, a Grandmaster and a Gold player come up and they save different things. The gold says that unit X is incredibly imbalanced, and he knows so because him and his gold buddy can never beat unit X. Then the grandmaster comes in and says oh yea, you just aren't doing such and such thing, then unit X is no problem. People would listen to the grandmaster, because he knows what he is talking about. But for Starbow, we don't know leagues or definitions of how good people are. We have to listen to everyone evenly even thought one person might just be losing one match-up over and over because they are just inferior to their opponents. Not just because the units are overpowered. This is the main problem for a lot of the OP claims some people make about a lot of units. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
The tooltip says 30 damage (30 vs Psionic). Did you mean it to do 30 + 30 vs Psionic? Or just 30 flat no matter what. If it is the latter, I would suggest removing the part about Psionic, as it is confusing. As of right now, Snipe just does 30 damage flat. Personally, I would like for it to have the ability to 2 shot with snipe most casters. This would promote more APM (and higher skill cap) as it would require less energy in exchange for more clicks needed. By most casters I mean: Infestor, High Templar and Ghost. Right now it takes: Ghost: 4 Snipes Infestor: 5 Snipes High Templar: 3 Snipes This makes it very ineffective for the Ghost, as it would be more energy-efficient (and easier) to just EMP the unit. I would also like to see that the ghost is able to snipe all Psionic units, as this gives snipe an even better anti-caster role. | ||
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Von
United States363 Posts
On November 09 2012 07:34 Freeze967 wrote: .. in a perfect world immortals might actually be a considerable threat to mech. But it's not now. No one at this level has the control to make sure that the immortal is always shooting tanks, and not switching to spider mines (Which is why priority is so huge, make spider mines lower priority and suddenly immortals will be *much* better. They will target the tanks instead.) This in here, I think, is the solution to the quandary of Tank vs Immortal in a nutshell. The trilogy dynamic of tanklines, immortals, and spidermines - *forces* T to properly position spidermines to defend tanklines - or suffer the wrath of the Immortals. It's merely a question of adjusting stats on the spidermine so that it is properly balanced and doing it's job (throughout all matchups) without being OP. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
It forces obs because you can't just a-move through minefields without detection like in brood war, but in broodwar a-moving wasn't a simple and painless process. You didn't have a nice tight little ball to breeze through and make sure its safe, units moved in large formations. The edges of formations were vulnerable. As well, the start up time for shooting was MUCH slower compared to the instantaneous attacks of SC2. You can target fire them when they pop, but this isn't practical in the slightest. Early spider mines are incredibly risky because the usual stalker pressure easily defeats vultures. Starbow itself is an high eco game. How often do you see 1 base vs 1 base like BW? In TvP, pretty much never. So Toss always gets the observer because who on Earth is going to target fire spider mines in such the high speed game of Starbow? You also can't use them offensively like in BW due to extremely long set up times. They are not anywhere near close to being as powerful as BW mines. The cool down limits setting up quick mine fields right before an engagement. Pushing out with vulture tank and banking on your mines to support your army is extremely risky. You always need to know where the Toss army is to allow you time to set up mines (tanks seige up pretty fast, setting up mine positions not so much). | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
So how is the current meta game of this game doing? Whatever it is ! It needs more destrutable rocks xD | ||
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