EPT[A] Starbow - Page 148
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On November 09 2012 10:40 Freeze967 wrote: @ Immortals Because the protoss army does not spread out, a lot of splash damage occurs. The splash is crucial for taking down immortals. Terran's will not be pushing out before a very large army, so they do not have to worry about a lack of splash. About being attacked early, they should have enough defenses (Already sieged, good positioned tanks, and spider mines.) Vultures should also be targeting the immortals, reducing shields. Yes, most people won't be spending the time to focus the immortals with vultures, but it is a way. Most of the tanks will actually not shoot the immortals, so this will be very useful. A leftover army of just immortals is very easy to deal with. @ Midgame ? Let's look at BW, the only good source of how TvP mech is played out. The protoss acts like the zerg, they expand frequently and tries to get harassment done on the terran. I do not understand where you are coming from saying that the protoss army is able to fight effectively with a mech army. Yes, a protoss with a superior force will kill a mech army (duh). And yes, a equal protoss army that catches the terran unsieged will dominate them (again, duh). But if the terran has sieged, then the protoss army will not trade well at all. This is assuming the mech army has reached critical mass. If the terran pushed out before that, they just deserve to lose the army. It would be dumb to push out earlier. About Toss Econ, the terran has a very good harassment tool in the vulture, especially with their mines. The mines will do damage, if not kill, the defending units while the vultures can snipe probes. @ Carriers Carriers are only deadly when they are in huge numbers. If the terran let them get up to that size without doing something, then they deserved the loss. You have to attack at the point when 1-2 carriers are out, snipe them with golaiths, and kill their weakened ground army. This should be much easier since they will be investing so much into the carriers while the meching player still has their army. Yes, late game it is another story. But since they viking came it, it is much easier to deal with Carriers. Especially with ghosts. If a player if having trouble with the carrier transition, get ghosts to lockdown them. @Your last two sentences Prismdrop: There is a reason goliaths are there. They are amazing ground to air, and will snipe any prism nearby. If you are referring to early game, vultures are easily enough to deal with a prism. The zealots (which are the only good bombing unit) will get sniped as they land by the vultures, before the tanks can shoot. If they try to drop a stalker it will get mauled by a few shots, and will not kill the nearby tank. Yes, if the terran is stupid and decides to ball all of his tanks and die, then he will die. If the protoss invests in a prism (200 minerals for the prism, 400 for the zealots inside) suddenly their army is much smaller, and that was precious robo building time that they gave up for something ineffective. This is really only good very early game (when the terran shouldn't be pushing.) Blinking stalkers: Blinking stalkers onto the mech army is *great* for the Terran. Try it sometime. The splash on the stalkers is incredible. It is a great way to lose the army. The only scary part is when the protoss uses blink to flank on all sides. If they do this then yes, the terran will have a harder time. But I have never seen this done and I doubt I will. About Toss army being "easier, better, etc." Maybe the terran's you are playing just don't know how to play. This is the problem here. Most people who are offering balance suggestions are playing people not around their skill level. Even if they do know how, I don't understand how you got that. The Protoss army is only easier to control if they decide to one-a. If they do that and the terran into the traps I said earlier, then the terran screwed something else up. Imagine this, a Grandmaster and a Gold player come up and they save different things. The gold says that unit X is incredibly imbalanced, and he knows so because him and his gold buddy can never beat unit X. Then the grandmaster comes in and says oh yea, you just aren't doing such and such thing, then unit X is no problem. People would listen to the grandmaster, because he knows what he is talking about. But for Starbow, we don't know leagues or definitions of how good people are. We have to listen to everyone evenly even thought one person might just be losing one match-up over and over because they are just inferior to their opponents. Not just because the units are overpowered. This is the main problem for a lot of the OP claims some people make about a lot of units. This is all great in theory man, i'm just talking from my own experiences, i guess you'd call everyone on europe starbow bad because I have yet to come across a terran that can beat me. And leagues do matter, it's all about mechanics. And god, the amount of bullshit in your post is too damn high. "Because the protoss army does not spread out, a lot of splash damage occurs." what decent toss doesn't spread out his army before he engages. "About Toss Econ, the terran has a very good harassment tool in the vulture, especially with their mines. The mines will do damage, if not kill, the defending units while the vultures can snipe probes." mines don't target probes and 2 cannons can easely deal with with the vultures, if not -> recall. The big problem is the huge amount of harrass the toss can put on terran, if you try to straight up expand and go mech, you're gonna have a bad time, blink/obs harrass, dt, reaverdrop, ... you get ahead too easely as toss. "If the protoss invests in a prism (200 minerals for the prism, 400 for the zealots inside) suddenly their army is much smaller, and that was precious robo building time that they gave up for something ineffective." whaat? i don't even...yes making a warp prism is a huge investment... T_T and if it's ineffective, the toss failed. "Blinking stalkers onto the mech army is *great* for the Terran." lol, a well spread out blink, splash on your own tanks sounds great. "Maybe the terran's you are playing just don't know how to play." I played danko a couple games, or are you saying he sucks? "The Protoss army is only easier to control if they decide to one-a." come on, really? Basic boxcontrol, blink a couple stalkers, hit storm (on a static army, oh so hard), press d on warpprism, gg. Very nice of you to compare me to a gold QQplayer, fyi, i'm a mid-master toss and a low master terran, but i guess you'll wait for a high master to open your eyes. And if you don't consider this all a problem, then i guess i'll keep taking the freewins. | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:07 Kabel wrote: Stream on EU: http://cybergame.tv/vrumfondel/ AACK! my google page can only translate text! $#@! | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16831852 Second part: Goliath: not effectively counter voidray, and die easily from a few of immortal. Remove armored attribute could solve the problem. Armory: require too long (65 seconds is too). Decrease it at 50 or 55 seconds? medic: -rechange: not is cost efficient. I do not like that it works as healing. something like transfusion is longer viable: 25 energy for 50 energy? -P-matrix: defend in % is not the best in starcraft. Is too effective on units that have a lot of life (tank,firebat), and not very effective on units with low health (marine). do it as matrix of starcraft but with less life? Void ray: is a antimassive units, move to Fleet Beacon tech? carrier: is a nice unit but I never understood his role. at as serving? what does it? thoughts? | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
P-matrix does it's job fine right now and doesn't need to changed from my opinion (I use it a lot). Recharge still seems too weak to use even though I was optimistic when it was changed. One problem with it is, right now the medic loses energy faster than the target gains it by a fair amount. Just isn't worthwhile to use recharge do to the net loss of energy. I don't think armory changes are long-term solutions. Void ray change would help a lot, but I'm not sure how useful voids would ever be and they would overlap with carriers as a late game air unit. I've commented enough on TvP already, but I will say that if terran is boxed into a single strategy to just stay alive, I am not going to play the matchup because it's not fun for me. Right now, I have a build that does ok vs most protoss builds, but it's a build where if you make 1 mistake you are screwed, even though toss can make mistakes and still win. If someone else can figure out a safe consistent build that doesn't box terran into the corner, I'll try it. But until then, the match-up just isn't fun. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7826684/Global_Play_Coming_to_StarCraft_II-11_9_2012?page=1#page-comments US vs EU Who will take home the victory? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
The immortal is not the big problem. There is no one problem that can be fixed. It's a series of 5 or 6 small problems that are compounding into one big problem. To be honest, I don't think removing the immortal would even fix the problem. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
@Laertes Don't be bm on the teamliquid forum. It will earn you no points or favors. @Johnny You beat me to it. Can't wait for global play!!!!! So excited  | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On November 10 2012 11:11 Laertes wrote: So your suggestion is to remove the immortal? I think that we can agree that removing a unit is going too far. Anything but that, seriously, that's REALLY REALLY changing the game, its bad, I don't want to see units just removed because everyone is whining...the european guy is whining like a little prick just wants the immortal removed, I HATE that idea, I don't know what I would do if it was done. You know why? Cause its a cop out. There are so many other solutions to the problem(if there is one), I can't stand people who want to remove units from a game that is THIS close to being finished. Then at least consider nerfing the immortal (to either a high damage unit without the tanking capabilities or a tank without the huge dps), some other stuff needs to be buffed/nerfed to make tvp a balanced mu. And lol, whining? I'm trying to help out terran, you're welcome. | ||
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Jetaap
France4814 Posts
.the european guy is whining like a little prick just wants the immortal removed, Woah calm down with the ad hominen dude | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
In this post I will cover a few topics. I plan to get a new patch up as soon as possible. Probably not today since I am working all day long. @"Whine and complaints" No need to be rude to each other when people bring ideas, suggestions and solutions to different balance or design problems in Starbow. I think its cool that you all want Starbow to be as good and enjoyable as possible. People just have different views on how to reach the "perfect" balance. So please do critize and "whine" about stuff in the game. Its healthy for the development to see and hear players experiences. @ Why do Reavers shoot up and down cliffs? I would like the Reaver to work as in BW - it can only shoot at units at the same cliff level. Unfortunatly I have no idea how to create that. Even the SC2BW - MOD has problems with the Reaver. 1. Scarabs in SC2 are way dumber than in BW. Reavers auto-shoot at the closest target. In this case its the marines below the cliff. Reavers require constant supervision otherwise they will barely never hit the enemy. When I had it like that a couple of months ago, the Reaver was not fun to control... It would never hit anything by itself even if Protoss placed it in a good spot.. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rTMWn.jpg) 2. The Reaver in SC2BW can be placed at he edge of a cliff. The Scarab "drops" down the cliff and can attack units below. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yoplL.jpg) I pledge to the community once again. Would anyone like to experiment with the Reaver in the editor? Maybe someone can find a solution... @ My main concerns in TvP: Protoss is more fun to play because they have so many ways to kill, harass or threaten Terran - Reaver drop, warp in inside T's base, Void ray, Blink, Stalkers outrange bunkers etc. Terran has to stay defensive and has a harder time to apply pressure vs P in the early or mid game. A Protoss army still feels stronger than a Terran army.. I see lots of combats, between good players, where Protoss A-move into Terran siege contains and still win. The thought is that a Terran mech army shall be supieror in strength once it is in position.. I don´t think that is the case right now, DESPITE Terran spreads his tanks, his spider mines and they seem equal in supply etc.. These are changes I consider to do: - Buff the Vulture and Spider mines. Vulture HP 90 -> 100. Spider mine damage 75 + 25 vs armored -> 100 + 25 vs armored.. Or maybe 75 dmg vs light 100 vs all 125 vs armored. Increase spider mine splash radius.. I hesitate to increase Vulture dmg from 18 to 20 vs light. They will 2 shot workers. They did in BW. But here Vultures shoot spider mines. Its easier to get Spider mines into perfect position in a Vulture drop now, than it was in BW. - Marines Its like Protoss do not fear any early pressure from Terran, except for SCV + marine all in.. Protoss is "safe" until T gets his factories up.. 1 Gateway + Chrono boost produces units as fast as 1 barrack. The early marines Terran produces will never be enough to do anything vs P. Unless T commits to 2 barracks early.. and at that stage, T must either do damage or otherwise he will fall behind and is stuck with 2 "worthless" barracks... One solution can be to reduce the build time of marines from 23 seconds -> 20 seconds. This would increase the production efficency of barracks.. Terran would be able to apply pressure earlier in the game.. Right now its very safe to fast expand in TvT and TvP since there is nothing to fear... This would give bio an advantage over mech units.. Bio is built faster and stronger in the early and midgame, while mech is the superior army in terms of firepower.. You can get quite lot of bio from a few barracks while mech, who is built slow, requires more investment in many factories.. In TvZ, this change would be very strong in favor of T.. To compensate for that I can buff the attack speed and movement speed a little bit more for Zerglings.. as many of you have requested.. Terran Air The Wraith in BW was mainly used in TvZ. Otherwise it was a dead unit. In Starbow its mainly used in TvZ and sometimes in TvP to deny Warp Prism... The Banshee in SC2 is used in all match-ups in all stages of the game - harass AND as a part of the army.. T could get 1 and still get a lot of efficency out of it.. I like the versatility of the Wraith - it is fast, cloaked, can harass, can snipe air units.. But T must commit to a lot of Wraiths to make them decent in air to ground combat.. And they have no role in the army except for harass.. The replacement of the Banshee feels like Terran has one less potential threat to apply in TvT and TvP. I am just not convinced that the current line-up of Terran air and anti-air units is the best way to go... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MjqcY.jpg) I am just looking and thinking loud about the options.. IF both Wraiths + Banshees are in the game it will be broken in TvP.. Terran get a completely cloaked air army that can destroy the only detection P has - observer.. There will be no weakness to Terran air once they reach a critical mass of cloaked air units with BOTH high DPS vs air and ground units.. IF the Banshee replaces the Wraith, Terran needs a flying anti air unit.. Maybe bring back the Viking to its original role but just make it faster and adjust the values a bit? (Faster transform between ground and air etc) But IF I do that we will have both Goliaths and Vikings in the game.. Two robots that looks the same, have similar HP, similar DPS and similar function... (One flies and shoots anti air, the other walks and shoots anti air... both with a strong attack vs armored) Then MAYBE I need to make Goliath more unique compared to Vikings.. maybe a bit bigger, costly and with splash vs air?.. no wait.. Whats happening... thats DA THOR! IF I do that then maybe I can adjust the Thor too.. like remove energy, the weird ability it has, change stats etc.. AND IF I DO ALL THAT STARBOW TERRAN WILL NOT BE A COPY OF BW-TERRAN ANYMOARRR!! 1!11!!1!1!!! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ple3J.jpg) O_o No but here is the dilemma: I think that Banshee might be better for the game than Wraiths. Goliahts might be better for the game than Thors. But I need a flying anti - air unit that is NOT overlapping with the Goliath or the Banshee. (Vikings and Wraiths do that in their current form) Thouhts?! | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
about terran air, I understand the dilemma, an idea might be to give the wraith a workerharrasing ability that isn't by just attacking? gives the ability to pressure with a cloaked unit without making it imba air to ground (which creates the possibility for 1/1/1 style pushes >.<). This way you can keep the current line-up, because i like very much what you did with it, except the wraith feels a bit underpowered. what do you think? edit: oh and maybe consider to buff the general dps of the vulture maybe? 6dmg feels really bad :/, and like many people suggest that you should use em to get down the shield of the immortal, 16-17 shots unupgraded seems a bit much, but i dunno, maybe the spidermines could fix that. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
I like the wraith and I think that just a few small fixes to make it balanced: currently is not very efficient for harass but should not become too strong vs ground units. I'd like to see more 1-1-1 start in each mu. one of the following changes may solve part of the problem: change the cost from 150-75 to 125-100? change damage vs ground units from 10 to 11? change the cost cloack from 200-200 at 150-150? change desing cloack: cost 50 energy and lasts 30 seconds? while cloacked can not regenerate energy, after the cloack finish, wait a time 30 second cooldown before you can use the cloack ability? This will let truce the opponent and the player must try to do more damage in a time limit and ultilizzare the unit several times after first use. the cloack time is a better thing for me because it does not do anything random. I can be wrong then comment as well. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Even if the ground damage is 8, 10 or 12 the same problem remains - Terran must commit quite a lot to get a high enough Wraith count to actually deal any ground damage. T must "go Wraiths" to benefit from them. 1 or 2 Banshees can be added to the Terran army for harassment without T needs to commit to them. They are kinda cheap and can do high damage in small numbers. Just as P can get 1 Reaver + 1 Warp Prism.. Banshees can have high ground dmg since their weakness is no air attack This is just me speculating. Maybe the Wraith can be fine too. I just have a feeling that cutting the Banshee was maybe a bad idea and adding Wraith in its place. Ps. Vulture dmg might get an increase. I have not decided on the exact adjustmens yet. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
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