EPTOn November 07 2012 05:43 Danko__ wrote:
decemberscalm:
Reavers never splashed allied units. Neither BW or Starbow.
decemberscalm:
Reavers never splashed allied units. Neither BW or Starbow.
food for thought!
[A] Starbow - Page 145
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
food for thought! | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
The answer is to make burrow time a little less and make their auto-attack priority below other attacking units. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Starbow Unit tester That would be a great! Unfortunatly I do not have the skills to create such a map. If anyone wanna do it, please do! @Broodlords I agree with Danko that Broodlords in its current SC2 form is a very slow and deathbally unit. So I would like to adjust this unit in some way, without making it feel completely nerfed and bad. Some of you have written some good suggestions. Earlier I made Broodlords have a "normal attack" instead of broodlings. When it attacked a unit, that unit got a buff that lasted 10 seconds. IF that unit died during that duration, 2 broodlings spawned from it. It was good in theory. And maybe it can be good in reality too. The reasons I removed it was because I could not get it to work properly. And some Zerg players were complaining that Broodlords were just useless. It felt like Broodlors had lost some of its fun stuff.. If I give it another shot I think I will be able to build that ability better this time, since I am a bit better with the editor today than I was when I built it during the summer. And I will probably be able to balance it. The question is: would such an ability make the unit more interesting to play with and play against? @Spider mines I like when history repeats itself, but in a weird opposite way : D During the summer the biggest issue, by far, was the spider mine. It burrowed too fast, did too much damage and had worse auto-attack priority than other units. So units were shooting at enemy units instead of the spider mines... and this caused HUGE frustration among the players at that time. (The Protoss/Zerg army moved into spider mines in every single game if there was Terran units behind them that shot at your army. NO matter if you had detection or not, your units would just ignore the spider mines and walk on them ) Obviously the spider mines are not optimal now. So something will be done with them. But reverting them to their old state, or to a similar state, will probably not fix anything. Just replace the problems with other problems. I actually do not get why everyone wants the spider mines to burrow so fast. Its not suppose to be a combat spell. You are suppose to place them before combat.. around the map.. at important locations.. for defence.. or when you siege or contain the enemy... and if the opponent is good, he will attack you before the spider mines are properly placed or tanks sieged in position.. Since Vultures "shoot" spider mines it was very easy to spam them on the enemy army. Terran did not feel a need to pre-place them.. Of course this can be adjusted if I find the proper value on the burrow time. But I do not think that the burrow time is the problem nor the solution. If anyone wanna have a look at this, go into the editor and experiment with the spider mines. Every important value can be found in the spider mines unit and the 2 abilities: spider mine burrow & spider mine unburrow and in the behaviour that is called something like "Spider mine - invlunerablility" I really gotta go now so I will not have time to reply better than this : / | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
On November 07 2012 06:53 Kabel wrote: @Broodlords I agree with Danko that Broodlords in its current SC2 form is a very slow and deathbally unit. So I would like to adjust this unit in some way, without making it feel completely nerfed and bad. Some of you have written some good suggestions. Earlier I made Broodlords have a "normal attack" instead of broodlings. When it attacked a unit, that unit got a buff that lasted 10 seconds. IF that unit died during that duration, 2 broodlings spawned from it. It was good in theory. And maybe it can be good in reality too. The reasons I removed it was because I could not get it to work properly. And some Zerg players were complaining that Broodlords were just useless. It felt like Broodlors had lost some of its fun stuff.. If I give it another shot I think I will be able to build that ability better this time, since I am a bit better with the editor today than I was when I built it during the summer. And I will probably be able to balance it. The question is: would such an ability make the unit more interesting to play with and play against? I think it opens up a lot more for the Zerg and the opponent in terms of skill (micro and possibly more interesting plays). The strength of the actual unit (broodlord attack damage, # of broodlings, HP/damage of broodlings, duration of modifier, etc) can be balanced after that. Even disregarding the potential of skill, it just feels more interesting, IMHO. We should definitely not discount the idea if it was not even working correctly on the first try. Yes, please do try and implement it again!  | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
cloak ghost suggestion: cloak does not cost energy, but 30 seconds of clockdown, when activated, it not use energy and has a duration of 30 seconds. Stopped 30 seconds, wait another 30 seconds to re-use this skill. This allows the ghost to have energy to use skills while cloaked. Or only costs 25 (or 50) energy to activate and 30 seconds of duration but not regenerate energy in this moment. considerations? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
I don't think Firebats were this good vs Hydras in BW! >:D On November 07 2012 09:13 JohnnyZerg wrote: @kabel cloak ghost suggestion: cloak does not cost energy, but 30 seconds of clockdown, when activated, it not use energy and has a duration of 30 seconds. Stopped 30 seconds, wait another 30 seconds to re-use this skill. This allows the ghost to have energy to use skills while cloaked. Or only costs 25 (or 50) energy to activate and 30 seconds of duration but not regenerate energy in this moment. considerations? Only if you can autocast... which defeats the point. | ||
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NYContributor
3 Posts
On November 07 2012 06:53 Kabel wrote: I will only have time for a quick post now. Unfortunatly I do not have time to respond to all of your suggestions/thoughts/questions @Starbow Unit tester That would be a great! Unfortunatly I do not have the skills to create such a map. If anyone wanna do it, please do! @Broodlords I agree with Danko that Broodlords in its current SC2 form is a very slow and deathbally unit. So I would like to adjust this unit in some way, without making it feel completely nerfed and bad. Some of you have written some good suggestions. Earlier I made Broodlords have a "normal attack" instead of broodlings. When it attacked a unit, that unit got a buff that lasted 10 seconds. IF that unit died during that duration, 2 broodlings spawned from it. It was good in theory. And maybe it can be good in reality too. The reasons I removed it was because I could not get it to work properly. And some Zerg players were complaining that Broodlords were just useless. It felt like Broodlors had lost some of its fun stuff.. If I give it another shot I think I will be able to build that ability better this time, since I am a bit better with the editor today than I was when I built it during the summer. And I will probably be able to balance it. The question is: would such an ability make the unit more interesting to play with and play against? @Spider mines I like when history repeats itself, but in a weird opposite way : D During the summer the biggest issue, by far, was the spider mine. It burrowed too fast, did too much damage and had worse auto-attack priority than other units. So units were shooting at enemy units instead of the spider mines... and this caused HUGE frustration among the players at that time. (The Protoss/Zerg army moved into spider mines in every single game if there was Terran units behind them that shot at your army. NO matter if you had detection or not, your units would just ignore the spider mines and walk on them ) Obviously the spider mines are not optimal now. So something will be done with them. But reverting them to their old state, or to a similar state, will probably not fix anything. Just replace the problems with other problems. I actually do not get why everyone wants the spider mines to burrow so fast. Its not suppose to be a combat spell. You are suppose to place them before combat.. around the map.. at important locations.. for defence.. or when you siege or contain the enemy... and if the opponent is good, he will attack you before the spider mines are properly placed or tanks sieged in position.. Since Vultures "shoot" spider mines it was very easy to spam them on the enemy army. Terran did not feel a need to pre-place them.. Of course this can be adjusted if I find the proper value on the burrow time. But I do not think that the burrow time is the problem nor the solution. If anyone wanna have a look at this, go into the editor and experiment with the spider mines. Every important value can be found in the spider mines unit and the 2 abilities: spider mine burrow & spider mine unburrow and in the behaviour that is called something like "Spider mine - invlunerablility" I really gotta go now so I will not have time to reply better than this : / The Broodlord change is fundamentally a great idea. I think the first reason it failed before was because the damage needed to be modified as if it were a direct damage unit to utilize the ability, think guardian damage. Just enough that it can kill basic units with very few hits or you need a huge upgrade advantage to kill marines in one hit. The less damage it's given, the more target firing is needed to spawn broodlings from it and the harder it is to use. Without target firing, the other person could micro units back so as to avoid the spawning (esp blink stalkers). Secondly, the attack being applied as a buff seems like a nerf in itself. Having the effect wear off after some seconds means most broodlings wouldn't ever be spawned which is half of its overall power. This especially hurts the effectiveness in "Siege" situations where most units wouldn't be killed immediately, which to me is the essential role of the Broodlord. Making it register as a permanent "status effect" would make players fear being under siege by them not for the immediate damage, but for the integrity of their army in future engagements. Also if previously the buff wasn't stacking, then each additional hit needed to kill the target was essentially wasted. After these changes, you'll actually have a more powerful Broodlord in the right hands than previously and opponents still have a chance to micro against it. I completely agree with your Spider Mine viewpoint. Its power and area control is only balanced by its difficulties in using properly. Burrow and unborrow should be intentionally delayed to make players using it think ahead as an indirect trade against the opponents micro to destroy them. They're a very technical ability and should be built around that idea in an even more entertaining way. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
Sanctify: Allied units regenerate shield and hp and gain hardened shield under this radius, but they cannot attack (enemy units are completely unaffected. Synergistic with zealot, blink stalker (they often survive but damaged), reducing economic damage from drops. Possibly with carriers, if you fire interceptors from outside the radius and then skirt into the field. Maybe too good versus mech. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
On November 07 2012 06:53 Kabel wrote: + Show Spoiler + I will only have time for a quick post now. Unfortunatly I do not have time to respond to all of your suggestions/thoughts/questions @Spider mines I like when history repeats itself, but in a weird opposite way : D During the summer the biggest issue, by far, was the spider mine. It burrowed too fast, did too much damage and had worse auto-attack priority than other units. So units were shooting at enemy units instead of the spider mines... and this caused HUGE frustration among the players at that time. (The Protoss/Zerg army moved into spider mines in every single game if there was Terran units behind them that shot at your army. NO matter if you had detection or not, your units would just ignore the spider mines and walk on them ) Obviously the spider mines are not optimal now. So something will be done with them. But reverting them to their old state, or to a similar state, will probably not fix anything. Just replace the problems with other problems. I actually do not get why everyone wants the spider mines to burrow so fast. Its not suppose to be a combat spell. You are suppose to place them before combat.. around the map.. at important locations.. for defence.. or when you siege or contain the enemy... and if the opponent is good, he will attack you before the spider mines are properly placed or tanks sieged in position.. Since Vultures "shoot" spider mines it was very easy to spam them on the enemy army. Terran did not feel a need to pre-place them.. Of course this can be adjusted if I find the proper value on the burrow time. But I do not think that the burrow time is the problem nor the solution. If anyone wanna have a look at this, go into the editor and experiment with the spider mines. Every important value can be found in the spider mines unit and the 2 abilities: spider mine burrow & spider mine unburrow and in the behaviour that is called something like "Spider mine - invlunerablility" I really gotta go now so I will not have time to reply better than this : / I can understand this. Maybe if you gave mines some armor while burrowing or something. I'm not sure exactly, all I know is one of the reasons TvP feels so hard is mines aren't holding up their role of a buffer. Toss seem perfectly happy to march right through them. I think these dynamics are very complicated, and could involve things such as terran being unable to produce enough vultures mid game due to the constant threat of either voids or immortal busts. This forces more tank production and less vultures, leading to less overall mines. Mines are suppose to be used for flanks, but 1 immortal can absorb and entire mine field. The fact that blink dynamics can instant pull mines into tanks at the same time the tanks friendly fire themselves. Overally, mines hold a key role in TvP and right now they are crappy. Almost every toss I talk to says they feel like they can do what ever they want in PvT and have a good chance at winning. Whatever the problems is, almost everyone I have talked to agrees though, that when you watch mines in TvP, something needs to be changed. On November 07 2012 12:12 Chronopolis wrote: I have an idea for replacing matrix for the high templar. Sanctify: Allied units regenerate shield and hp and gain hardened shield under this radius, but they cannot attack (enemy units are completely unaffected. Synergistic with zealot, blink stalker (they often survive but damaged), reducing economic damage from drops. Maybe too good versus mech. This sounds like a good idea. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This patch contains mostly minor changes and nothing radical. I have based this on games I´ve observed or played, on feedback collected from the players either in this thread, in the in-game chat or via PM here on TL. There are also a few small experiments added... - Zerg groud units can regenerate of creep if they are not in combat. They have the regeneration value as in SC2. But still ground units regenerate faster if they are on creep and not in combat. + Show Spoiler + The reason for this was that Zerglings who did a run-by early in the game did not regenerate anything. It took away the major reason for Zerg to micro the Zerglings in the enemy base as long as possible to regenerate health.. - Warp Prism speed upgrade build time increased from 80 to 110. Cost increased from 100/100 to 150/150. + Show Spoiler + Since Reavers can shoot up and down cliffs, AND P can warp in units on the Warp Prism, a Reaver harass is more deadly in Starbow than it was in BW. This is just an attempt to make it not as powerful as early in the game. P must now invest in the upgrade if they want stronger harassment capabilities. Earlier it was so cheap and so quick to research... Most Zerg units buildings BT increased with 5 or 10 seconds, depending on the building. + Show Spoiler + This is to further encourage Zerg to use Transfusion on their buildings. Maybe will we see some more decision making between Transfusion or Inject. Transfuse to get your tech up faster. Inject to get your larvas up faster. If you do nothing of them, you will fall behind in either army or tech, compared to the opponent. Since Zerglings are tougher now, 6 pool is stronger. By delaying the spawning pool BT a bit will give the opponent a little more time for defence. Zealots recived +10 HP to their shields. + Show Spoiler + Since I am still sticking around with the 50 HP Zerglings, I think that the Zealot could need some love too. Now they have the same shield value as in BW... (Remember that I have promised to revert the Zergling changes if they turns out to be retarded. (Which some of you already think) I want to give it some more time. But overall, +10 shield adds a little bit longer life time atleast.. I do not think this will screw up the Zealots interaction with any other unit.. Lurker has a longer cooldown between attacks. + Show Spoiler + Many players have claimed that Lurkers are very very strong. I agree. The way I have choosen to nerf them is via the attack speed. More lurkers can now overkill if they are clumped up. The enemy now has more time to micro vs them and dodge their attacks. Dropships movement speed increased and they unload units at a faster rate. (4 units per second instead of 1 per second) + Show Spoiler + This is just an attempt to give the Dropship some unique edge compared to the other transports. Energize for Medics replenishes energy faster and better to friendly casters. + Show Spoiler + Just a way to strengthen the ability a bit, to see if its useful at all. Combat shield upgrade added for marines. Gives +15 HP but requires Armory to research. + Show Spoiler + Hm.. This is mostly a try.. I´ve talked earlier about making bio more viable in TvT and TvP.. This upgrade might not be the correct way of doing it.. But I just wanna try it.. I had some other ideas: Combat shield reduces splash damage by 50% and similar stuff. But I decided to try the simplest solution first. This will probably have must effect in TvZ. But sinze Zerg has recived some new strong stuff in the latest patch (Plague at Infestors, Overlords creep gives armor to burrowed lurkers and ground units, Consume for even more Dark Swarms) I think theCombat shield as a late game research will not be too broken. Marines stimpack adds 10% more movement speed bonus than before. + Show Spoiler + Just an attempt to make Marines able to chase Stalkers a bit better. Remember that marines have shorter range in Starbow compared to Stalkers, plus that stim pack lasts shorter. (Although the damage increase is higher here than in SC2) I have not done anything about Brood lords, the Protoss line-up of spells or the Spider mines plus some other smaller stuff. They will come in the next patch. I need to identify a good fix for them. Is it the Spider mine that is the problem, or is it the counters that are too good? (Ps. Seems like some of you think that the Immortal shield works as in SC2. Immortals shield reduces 20 damage per attack and not 10, as in SC2. So it can absorb 5 Spider mine hits before the shield is depleted. The Shield has been like this for a long time now, even though it might not be so easy to notice) | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
One thing I want to mention is, as stated in a blog by Falling, in TvT it is very likely that making bio and mech general playstyles viable is impossible. I think it was in his blog on mech and he made a good argument of such. I think mech in TvT is good especially with wraiths and nerve. Overall, looks like interesting changes, however I fear the bio upgrades will imbalance TvZ. Testing will be required. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Terran.... I am... SOOOOO SORRY. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Sending the patch to NA now Ah forgot to mention,.. Void rays deals less damage vs non-armored units too and have longer build time.. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On November 08 2012 04:13 Kabel wrote: I doubt that the +10 shield fofr Zealots will hardy make any difference in early PvT. 2 more shots from a marine or a SCV. vultures kill them in same amount of shots.. spider mines too.. and siege tanks Sending the patch to NA now Ah forgot to mention,.. Void rays deals less damage vs non-armored units too and have longer build time.. Late game splash, mines and siege tanks. | ||
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ArkussSC2
Canada95 Posts
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