EPTOn November 05 2012 06:40 Danko__ wrote:
How 50hp lings are nerf to zerg?
How 50hp lings are nerf to zerg?
Because of the dps nerf along with it. It makes zerglings a lot more useless.
[A] Starbow - Page 143
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
Because of the dps nerf along with it. It makes zerglings a lot more useless. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On November 05 2012 06:43 Freeze967 wrote: Because of the dps nerf along with it. It makes zerglings a lot more useless. over the model ling is enlarged, so less lings can attack an unit | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
i use grid key profile, I have a hard pass from starcraft 2 to starbow or otherwise, because it changes the position of the Zerg structures (see image below) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Drk6I.png) may bring the position of the construction as of sc2 and the Hydralisk den in the position of the roach warren. Reply if you received the message, thank you | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Calling new lings "50hp lings" is very misleading if you want to count in all changes. I dont think they are any weaker at direct engagements. But they are no longer so good at what they are supposed to do. Catch opponent offguard and quickly and effectively abuse that fact. JohnnyZerg I dont think unit radius was increased in 50hp patch. Probably only model which doesnt affect game in anyway. Lings were that "big" already after damage point change. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
I dislike 50hp lings for core concept reasons. Zerg is supposed to be the race with swarms of small, weak, but very aggressive and dangerous units. Giving zerglings more hp but less damage goes against that entirely. You stated you wanted zergling runbys to be more dangerous with this, but it only makes them weaker, since now you need more lings to do the same amount of damage in the same amount of time. Anyway. I think zerglings should be returned to how they were in terms of dps. And maybe put their hp at 40 instead of 35 if they really needed a buff. 50 hp makes stalkers completely useless versus them, each zergling tanking 4 shots, whereas it was 3 shots before. 40 hp would put them back in the 3 stalker hit range, but keep them out of the 1 zealot hit range. Also, I love the new patch. Corruption being usable on buildings is good. Maybe it should reduce armor as well? Corruptor still seems underwhelming. Spellcaster changes are great, especially the new Frenzy. And the overlord having what's basically a more defensive guardian Shield is also pretty neat. //gg | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
On November 05 2012 10:31 Laertes wrote: So basically, you want to revert good change for LORE reasons, real smart. He wrote about things other than lore past that. A paragraph and a half was devoted to it. I don't really know how you missed it. You might want to try rereading that before posting an argument. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On November 05 2012 10:31 Laertes wrote: So basically, you want to revert good change for LORE reasons, real smart. It's not lore, it's the thematic core concept, like he said. Never underestimate the impact of that. Diversity between races and between individual units is one of the major reasons StarCraft is the most successful RTS franchise. Zerglings should really not have more HP than Marines. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
1. The sound for consume is kind of weird. I do not think it should last that long. Sounds more like a building just finished or something. 2. Noticed archons no longer 1 hit zerglings (despite the 50 HP thing being here a while now), and zerglings are really not afraid to engage an archon. I think that is pretty sad. 3. I think the high templar's matrix spell should only do one (for friendly units) or the other (slow enemy units). I know it will ultimately be left up to balance, but I think it should be more specialised (2 separate spells for each, perhaps?). It is kind of disruptive to see tons of spheres on the battlefield. Also, I noticed that the sphere animation "resets" itself after a certain amount of time. Then it goes away as it should after the actual time. 4. Zerglings are a lot easier to come by in Starbow. Consume should only give 25 or 20 energy. 5. Initial thoughts on dark swarm are that it was a bit hard to see (on certain terrain). Maybe make it a tad darker. With HP bars on the screen plus all the flashy things that come with SC2/Starbow (i.e. matrix), a more noticeable visual indicator may be better. Overall, not bad, and we would just get used to it, but just saying. 6. +2 armour for the overlord creep is a bit much, I think. However, since it is really difficult to compare skill levels at the moment, there is no way to prove any difference between +1 and +2. I am interested in what people can make of it, though. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will look at it. @Lurker button issue I got a PM about it from Traceback a while ago to fix the Lurker. Fix: Manually edit the hotkey file located in your profile folder and add the following lines: BurrowLurker/Lurker=(Key for burrow) Burrow/Lurker=(Key for unburrow) DarkSwark/SwarmGuardian=(Key) Plauge/SwarmGuardian=(Key) Maelstrom/DarkArchon=(Key) Rift/Arbiter=(Key) GravitonBeam/Corsair=(Key) @Zerglings with 50 HP This is not a popular thing. So was not the speed nerf of Zerglings a while ago either. I don´t know why everyone keeps saying their attack speed is so horrible and useless. The cooldown of a Zerglings attack is: SC2 - 0.7 seconds Starbow earlier - 0.55 seconds Starbow now - 0.65 seconds To clearify: A lower number equals a faster attack. So Zerglings can catch and kill targets roughly as quick as in SC2. People were complaining that Zerg could not do run-bys with Zerglings anymore due to the slower movement speed I implemented a couple of weeks ago. With their increased HP they can do run-bys better again. Just to clearify this too: Zerglings now have the same movement speed as Zerglings have in BW. The 50 HP Zerglings or the movement speed reduction is not a goal in itself. Its a way to strengthen the level of interaction players can do with and against Zerglings. In other words, micro! If they are a bit larger, a bit slower, a bit more durable, a bit more harder to get into the game - they become units both the Zerg player and the enemy can interact with. - They are large enough to be focus fired. - They are slow enough so the enemy can actually react to them. - They are fast enough so Z can surround and catch stuff... with micro. Not just A-move and auto-surround. - They are harder to get into the game due to the larva spawn reduction. Z is more eager to NOT just throw them away early - They live long enough in combat so the Zerg player can actually do something with them. (And its a matter of seconds..) - They have enough life to actually be microed out of combat to regenerate health on the creep. One important feature in Starcraft is the opportunities players have to effect and manipulate units in the game. Its the same thing I did with Spider mines recently. They unburoowed and moved so fast that there was really no way for players to actually snipe the spider mines. Still, spider mines are supposed to be fast as fuck. They are in BW. But by reducing their speed, enemy players can interact with them much better and I´ve seen some nice mine sniping. And this brings joy to the players. To sum it up: 50 HP, movement speed reduction or larger radius of Zerglings is not the goal in itself. Its just how I have chosen to strengthen the micro aspect of Zerglings, both from the Z player and the enemy player. They can still be just A-moved if Z wants. Or if Z chooses, he can focus on them in combat and actually be able to get more value out of them. I don´t think SC2 Zerglings offer enough in that regard. But its worth to mention it again: if things do not work out well, or if other solutions comes to mind, I will obviously revert the 50 HP. Maybe there are other approaches to fix what I identify to be a problem with Zerglings. Or maybe there is not even a problem... Suggestions on other ways to increase the micro potential of Zerglings in and out of combat? Ps. There is of course a balance aspect of this too. Probably Zerglings are too good now. But there are ways to overcome that problem. Ps2. The lore aspect is of course important. But I don´t think anything has been ruined in terms of lore, if the Zergling has 50 HP, slower movement speed or any other minor changes to it. They are still the second fastest unit in the game, they are swarmy and have high DPS. They are low life units that dies quickly. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Apart from the balance adjustments, I have some more "design" areas left to fix. I see this as a two-step process: 1.) Design creates the foundation for the game. 2.) Balance makes the design "work" and makes the game enjoyable for the players. Example: Dropships/Warp Prism/Overlords allows players to transport and drop units. That is a design thing. The speed, cost, maximum cargo that can loaded etc are balance. Yeyeye lets get to the point. These are the areas I will take another look at: - The Protoss line-up of spells. It does not feel complete. I am not doing major changes. Just smaller adjustments probably. - Matrix is too spammy and covers the entire battlefield. Maybe move it to another unit or make it a reasearch? - Recall on Arbiter is something I consider. Maybe even remove it completely from the Nexus. - Hallucination as starting spell on High Templar? - Bring back Statis Field? Replace Vortex? - Maelstrom on Dark Archon is a classic spell.. But I feel more disgust for it every day >.< Replace?! - Fix Void Shells? It has great potential to be a broken spell... (Traceback had a good idea about it. The Shell is removed once the unit recieves damage.) Brood Lords and Corruptors I think Brood Lords spawning broodlings is a bad mechanic for lots of reasons. But if I remove it the Brood Lord will just feel naked... Like the fun part has been stripped from it. I would like to readjust it in some way. Corruptors might need something more too.. Give bio some kind of advantage in TvP and TvT, compared to mech. Bio is not unplayable. But mech is the "easier" and superior choice. I just want to give an extra edge to bio. Something that makes players want to use bio in their army composition. I need to find in what way it can be done. The Terran air and anti air units. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ORQKX.jpg) Is the current line up of anti air and air units for Terran the optimal way? I don´t know why.. Its just a feeling maybe.. but it does not feel 100% right.. I have no weird changes in mind. I will just consider it.. And discuss it in this thread.. Pimp the Dropship Both Zerg and Protoss have recieved "better and funnier" transport units. Warp prism can warp in stuff. Overlords can generate creep and morph into overseers. The Dropship just feels plain. My goal is not to fill it with fancy abilities. It can be a simple unit but it should have an edge in some way, and not just be the worst transport unit. - The fastest transport in the game? - Can load more units than the others? - High armor? Life? - An "engine ability" that boosts movement speed for 5 seconds? Replace Auto-turret and Energize It must not be done immediately. But I would like to replace both of these spells. Maybe there are some design flaws in the game I am not aware of. Or the new Zerg changes turns out to be madness. Otherwise I think this MOD is moving towards the state of balance work. Feel free to discuss this. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
1. +1 on void shield thing =P 2. Increasing drop ship capacity could work since terran would be able to fit medics in the dropship and/or firebats to increase the risk/reward of drops similar to warpin. 3. Energize is an ok spell if you make it not take so long to give energy. Make it an energy dump you can activate in battle that would let you recharge much faster but would limit healing ability. Another option is make it a burst ability so you would have to manage the energy so you don't waste it on full energy units. 4. Maybe turn auto turret into a small barricade. Basically make it the same as now but do no damage. It will still be manually targetable and maybe have a bit more HP. Would be a nice tactical ability. 5. Terran anti-air feels ok. Only possible change I can think of might be a decrease in armory build time so you can get gols sooner vs an air rush. Right now you have to scout the stargate right as it is finishing to have any chance of getting gols in time. Gols are also so weak vs other toss attacks so I think this a source of many of the problems (this and mine burrow time). 6. Broods: What about this idea. Brood shoots a dodgeable projectile (maybe with a marker on the ground) that does fairly high damage and some sort of movement speed debuf which splashes onto both air and ground (even though only air can be targeted). This will force bio micro from terran but won't hurt siege tanks (except for the high damage ofcourse that they can't dodge). It would have to be balanced but it could lead to some pretty cool micro battles late game. 7. Corr does it's job. I think buffing it and making it hive might be best. This way it can be good but not totally shutdown awesome midgame air harass. 8. Bio: Make ghost 100 gas and give medic a 50 or 75 energy AOE slow ability to help combat mass stalker kiting (which can't be dealt with using stim do to the short duration). Boom, bio I. TvP and ghosts in TvT. Maybe also lockdown as a default spell could work. Maybe swap with emp? 9. Toss is already way more mobile than in BW. Adding recall without removing other mobility options would not be a good idea I think. Mass gateway warpins to warp prisms can be like recalls already. 10. Stasis and halluc changes seem like good ideas to me. That's all for now, I might think of some other stuff later. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Pickup 2 at once as well. That way they can be used (in conjunction with a high speed) for some serious micro tactics. Maybe also having a capacity increase research on the techlab? +1 for void shell, hallucination and stasis as well. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
All the risk of the dropship dieing in flight are still there and I feel the biggest reason I don't make dropships is because I'd rather get more vessels with my starport time. By increasing dropship capacity I feel like you increase the value of a single dropship, making them more appealing, while still maintaining the risk relationship with drops. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
This is not a popular thing. So was not the speed nerf of Zerglings a while ago either. I don´t know why everyone keeps saying their attack speed is so horrible and useless. The cooldown of a Zerglings attack is: SC2 - 0.7 seconds Starbow earlier - 0.55 seconds Starbow now - 0.65 seconds They are bigger than in sc2 so in most situations deal less damage (especially with faster surround in sc2 due to move speed/size). BW - 0,45 seconds. So Zerglings can catch and kill targets roughly as quick as in SC2. People were complaining that Zerg could not do run-bys with Zerglings anymore due to the slower movement speed I implemented a couple of weeks ago. With their increased HP they can do run-bys better again. Just to clearify this too: Zerglings now have the same movement speed as Zerglings have in BW. By rougly you mean MUCH LATER. Their speed off creep got reduced by almost 10% and over 20% on creep. Zergling runbys are not supposed to be so effective cause they are durable but they can punish opponent heavly in undefended places. Now, less of them die, thats truth. But it takes longer to kill defenders and they are much weaker at dealing that damage when they already can. And in BW lings were much faster than now. They had around 3,13ms pre upgrade and 4,7 with upgrade after translating to sc2 values. The 50 HP Zerglings or the movement speed reduction is not a goal in itself. Its a way to strengthen the level of interaction players can do with and against Zerglings. In other words, micro! If they are a bit larger, a bit slower, a bit more durable, a bit more harder to get into the game - they become units both the Zerg player and the enemy can interact with. - They are large enough to be focus fired. - They are slow enough so the enemy can actually react to them. - They are fast enough so Z can surround and catch stuff... with micro. Not just A-move and auto-surround. - They are harder to get into the game due to the larva spawn reduction. Z is more eager to NOT just throw them away early - They live long enough in combat so the Zerg player can actually do something with them. (And its a matter of seconds..) - They have enough life to actually be microed out of combat to regenerate health on the creep. Again. You treat micro as its only part after engagement starts. Micro is also all dancing around, trying to outmaneuver opponent. Getting surround is perfect situation for zerglings. Microing zerglings is not relying on pulling back injured ones. If you can do that its fine, but most important when using lings is to outmaneuver your opponent. One important feature in Starcraft is the opportunities players have to effect and manipulate units in the game. Its the same thing I did with Spider mines recently. They unburoowed and moved so fast that there was really no way for players to actually snipe the spider mines. Still, spider mines are supposed to be fast as fuck. They are in BW. But by reducing their speed, enemy players can interact with them much better and I´ve seen some nice mine sniping. And this brings joy to the players. Its good solution for now. Probably mines move too slow and at some point you will have to increase acceleration, when people will get used to it. But for now its fine. In BW it looked different cause you could micro vs them different due to delayed targeting. Suggestions on other ways to increase the micro potential of Zerglings in and out of combat? Just revert changes, further increase their dps and movement speed slightly. Dont kill all other relations zerglings already had with other units. - Matrix is too spammy and covers the entire battlefield. Maybe move it to another unit or make it a reasearch? Lower duration. Right now it lasts half of game >.>.- Maelstrom on Dark Archon is a classic spell.. But I feel more disgust for it every day >.< Replace?! Make this spell weaker, cheaper(mineral/gas wise) and easier to hit. Also lower priority of stunned units so they are killed as lasst units (kinda like workers, they are autoatacked but less important in fight). - Fix Void Shells? It has great potential to be a broken spell... (Traceback had a good idea about it. The Shell is removed once the unit recieves damage.) Had exactly same idea for that. Buff removed once units take damage. So its possible to stop mass voidshell. Brood Lords and Corruptors I think Brood Lords spawning broodlings is a bad mechanic for lots of reasons. But if I remove it the Brood Lord will just feel naked... Like the fun part has been stripped from it. I would like to readjust it in some way. Corruptors might need something more too.. Bullshit. Broodlord is one of not many interestingly designed units in sc2. Just make them less of powerhouse. Cheaper, weaker, faster, so you can use some to harras, split forces and not instantloose game when you loose your blords ball. Give bio some kind of advantage in TvP and TvT, compared to mech. Bio is not unplayable. But mech is the "easier" and superior choice. I just want to give an extra edge to bio. Something that makes players want to use bio in their army composition. I need to find in what way it can be done. Not every playstyle has to be for everyone. Bio SHOULD be hard and on the other hand cant be op in good hands. I thing bio already has potential to DESTROY almost any other compositions. Just its HARDER, but that doesnt mean it has to be op. The Terran air and anti air units. Is the current line up of anti air and air units for Terran the optimal way? I don´t know why.. Its just a feeling maybe.. but it does not feel 100% right.. I have no weird changes in mind. I will just consider it.. And discuss it in this thread.. Wraiths could use slight buff imho. Pimp the Dropship Both Zerg and Protoss have recieved "better and funnier" transport units. Warp prism can warp in stuff. Overlords can generate creep and morph into overseers. The Dropship just feels plain. My goal is not to fill it with fancy abilities. It can be a simple unit but it should have an edge in some way, and not just be the worst transport unit. - The fastest transport in the game? - Can load more units than the others? - High armor? Life? - An "engine ability" that boosts movement speed for 5 seconds? Dunno. Upgrade for bigger capacity + faster unload speed feels resonable. | ||
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nilsheam
United States28 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Why do not you use it? can make a difference... In the next few games try to use this magnificent skills. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
1. I personally find broodlords to be fine. However, if you want to change them. Perhaps make them so that they shoot something like guardians (generic projectile, whatever); however, anytime that their target dies (anything that the broodlord has hit before -- so even if other zerg units kill the broodlord's target), that dead thing turns into broodlings. 2. +1 to making matrix less spammy. The screen is horrendous with tons of those up. Plus, they last so long. 3. +1 to the void shell suggestion. 4. Do not really care about stasis field versus vortex. Vortex is just something slightly different from BW. If you do want to replace it with stasis field, the field should be really small, because clumping in Starbow still huge compared to BW. In addition, I do not think (if there is a huge clump of ground/air units together) making stasis field only freeze, for example, 5 units is a solution. That is too random. 5. Maelstrom is amazing on many levels. Please leave it in. 6. Mass recall for arbiter. Maybe one unit recall for Nexus (cooldown + energy). Definitely recall for arbiter, though. 7. No to a turret on the dropship. It should never be allowed to attack. Perhaps a speed boost ability or a 3-5 second shield thing costing energy/cooldown. Increased cargo size is fine, too. 8. Yes, please get rid of auto-turrets. I do not find energise to be useful, in general. 9. Wraiths could use better movement Same thing with mutalisks. 10. Corsairs are stronger than they should be. | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
You could say like, well terrans should just mine the back of their base. If toss recalls into 2 immortals with their army, and the mines hit the immortals, they do nothing at all. Toss already has a ton of new buffs vs TvP mech, now is not the time to be buffing toss more in the matchup. | ||
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