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+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2012 05:31 Danko__ wrote:Show nested quote +This is not a popular thing. So was not the speed nerf of Zerglings a while ago either.
I don´t know why everyone keeps saying their attack speed is so horrible and useless. The cooldown of a Zerglings attack is:
SC2 - 0.7 seconds
Starbow earlier - 0.55 seconds
Starbow now - 0.65 seconds They are bigger than in sc2 so in most situations deal less damage (especially with faster surround in sc2 due to move speed/size). BW - 0,45 seconds. Show nested quote +So Zerglings can catch and kill targets roughly as quick as in SC2. People were complaining that Zerg could not do run-bys with Zerglings anymore due to the slower movement speed I implemented a couple of weeks ago. With their increased HP they can do run-bys better again.
Just to clearify this too: Zerglings now have the same movement speed as Zerglings have in BW. By rougly you mean MUCH LATER. Their speed off creep got reduced by almost 10% and over 20% on creep. Zergling runbys are not supposed to be so effective cause they are durable but they can punish opponent heavly in undefended places. Now, less of them die, thats truth. But it takes longer to kill defenders and they are much weaker at dealing that damage when they already can. And in BW lings were much faster than now. They had around 3,13ms pre upgrade and 4,7 with upgrade after translating to sc2 values. Show nested quote +The 50 HP Zerglings or the movement speed reduction is not a goal in itself. Its a way to strengthen the level of interaction players can do with and against Zerglings. In other words, micro!
If they are a bit larger, a bit slower, a bit more durable, a bit more harder to get into the game - they become units both the Zerg player and the enemy can interact with.
- They are large enough to be focus fired.
- They are slow enough so the enemy can actually react to them.
- They are fast enough so Z can surround and catch stuff... with micro. Not just A-move and auto-surround.
- They are harder to get into the game due to the larva spawn reduction. Z is more eager to NOT just throw them away early
- They live long enough in combat so the Zerg player can actually do something with them. (And its a matter of seconds..)
- They have enough life to actually be microed out of combat to regenerate health on the creep. Again. You treat micro as its only part after engagement starts. Micro is also all dancing around, trying to outmaneuver opponent. Getting surround is perfect situation for zerglings. Microing zerglings is not relying on pulling back injured ones. If you can do that its fine, but most important when using lings is to outmaneuver your opponent. Show nested quote +One important feature in Starcraft is the opportunities players have to effect and manipulate units in the game. Its the same thing I did with Spider mines recently. They unburoowed and moved so fast that there was really no way for players to actually snipe the spider mines. Still, spider mines are supposed to be fast as fuck. They are in BW. But by reducing their speed, enemy players can interact with them much better and I´ve seen some nice mine sniping. And this brings joy to the players. Its good solution for now. Probably mines move too slow and at some point you will have to increase acceleration, when people will get used to it. But for now its fine. In BW it looked different cause you could micro vs them different due to delayed targeting. Show nested quote +Suggestions on other ways to increase the micro potential of Zerglings in and out of combat?
Just revert changes, further increase their dps and movement speed slightly. Dont kill all other relations zerglings already had with other units. Show nested quote +- Matrix is too spammy and covers the entire battlefield. Maybe move it to another unit or make it a reasearch? Lower duration. Right now it lasts half of game >.>. Show nested quote +- Maelstrom on Dark Archon is a classic spell.. But I feel more disgust for it every day >.< Replace?! Make this spell weaker, cheaper(mineral/gas wise) and easier to hit. Also lower priority of stunned units so they are killed as lasst units (kinda like workers, they are autoatacked but less important in fight). Show nested quote +- Fix Void Shells? It has great potential to be a broken spell... (Traceback had a good idea about it. The Shell is removed once the unit recieves damage.) Had exactly same idea for that. Buff removed once units take damage. So its possible to stop mass voidshell. Brood Lords and Corruptors Show nested quote +I think Brood Lords spawning broodlings is a bad mechanic for lots of reasons. But if I remove it the Brood Lord will just feel naked... Like the fun part has been stripped from it. I would like to readjust it in some way.
Corruptors might need something more too.. Bullshit. Broodlord is one of not many interestingly designed units in sc2. Just make them less of powerhouse. Cheaper, weaker, faster, so you can use some to harras, split forces and not instantloose game when you loose your blords ball. Show nested quote +Give bio some kind of advantage in TvP and TvT, compared to mech.
Bio is not unplayable. But mech is the "easier" and superior choice. I just want to give an extra edge to bio. Something that makes players want to use bio in their army composition. I need to find in what way it can be done. Not every playstyle has to be for everyone. Bio SHOULD be hard and on the other hand cant be op in good hands. I thing bio already has potential to DESTROY almost any other compositions. Just its HARDER, but that doesnt mean it has to be op. Show nested quote +The Terran air and anti air units.
Is the current line up of anti air and air units for Terran the optimal way? I don´t know why.. Its just a feeling maybe.. but it does not feel 100% right.. I have no weird changes in mind. I will just consider it.. And discuss it in this thread.. Wraiths could use slight buff imho. Show nested quote +Pimp the Dropship
Both Zerg and Protoss have recieved "better and funnier" transport units. Warp prism can warp in stuff. Overlords can generate creep and morph into overseers. The Dropship just feels plain. My goal is not to fill it with fancy abilities. It can be a simple unit but it should have an edge in some way, and not just be the worst transport unit.
- The fastest transport in the game?
- Can load more units than the others?
- High armor? Life?
- An "engine ability" that boosts movement speed for 5 seconds? Dunno. Upgrade for bigger capacity + faster unload speed feels resonable.
For the most part, I agree with Danko. Especially with zerglings. When you are doing a runby, something is going very wrong if you take damage. You are supposed to bypass units and make it into the important area without taking damage. So speed is needed while health is not.
About Broodlords: I completely disagree. I feel that it has a place in starcraft, and it serves as a good late game army unit. Throughout most of the game, the zerg is the one getting pushed back. They try to expand while the other races push them back. Suddenly brood lord becomes the main unit to help push them back (Note, I am not saying it's impossible to push out otherwise, it is just harder. With broodlords you will almost always be able to push).
About bio: In regards to TvP, A bio player vs a competent protoss will lose. Always. I have yet to see a bio player win vs a protoss who is at least somewhat competent. Blink stalkers are just to good vs bio. While there is no explicit need for bio, as mech is perfectly fine as it is. I play TvP and win a good amount vs competent protosses. So yes, something needs to be done to hurt blink (Make EMP effect larger and disable blink? Think Fungal Growth).
About AA, I don't really understand where Kabel is coming from with this. The only MU that air has no immediate AA counter would be TvP, but that is held off easily by just countering until Goliaths are out (Think SC2 zvz one guy goes muta, other scouts it very late) But yea, I almost never see Wraith's if that's his point.
For the dropship: This is a tricky issue. You have to make the terran want to get the starport, but be able to cut a round of whatever unit they are making from it. When a terran gets a starport, it is generally for Science Vessels. When SV production starts, the terran cannot afford to cut SV for a dropship. So make them be able to get it for some other reason? I don't know, and it seems like a bad idea to make them do that. But unless you plan on making it ridiculously good, there is no other real way to make the "you gotta get it" feeling.
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On November 06 2012 08:29 Traceback wrote:
TvP already has the problem of crap mobility. Toss already has warpin which can spawn a ton of units in the terrans base. Mech TvP already has a huge problem dealing with all the new mobility spells and units toss has, like blink and a mobile anti-tank unit that is virtually immune to mines(immortal).
You could say like, well terrans should just mine the back of their base. If toss recalls into 2 immortals with their army, and the mines hit the immortals, they do nothing at all. Toss already has a ton of new buffs vs TvP mech, now is not the time to be buffing toss more in the matchup.
For mines, really just pretend it's an SC1 arbiter. Turrets and mines everywhere. Yes, it's somewhat silly that for an investment of 200 minerals, they can force this amount of preperation, but unless you want to keep 5-10 vultures at home, that's what you have to do. Suddenly you have a very difficult to harass base. Remember toss has to invest in a lot to protect probes from vultures/tanks. And this is all minerals, which a meching player is not in dire need of at the moment.
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Kabel, just as a thought.
A starbow unit tester would be super useful, especially if we had a somewhat big area in the middle to test big army engagements. Also great to see, "Oh how much dps does this do vs this" "Is this army comp even somewhat viable vs so and so", etc.
Hopefully we could get something like that!
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+1 to the StarBow unit tester.
While it wouldn't accurately depict the timings of things (how fast can a gol get out in relation to a vray), it would be nice just to see how spell effects work in battles. And I think it would be easier to test those types of balance rather than updating the actual maps and waiting for feedback.
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Interesting. Someone else's take on what SC2 should have been.
FlowCraft
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380058
I am glad to see so much interest for a better SC2, but the more mods there are, the more splitting of the community there will be. I guess everyone has their own opinions, but still. =\
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On November 06 2012 05:46 nilsheam wrote:
Or maybe you could attach a mini auto turret to it.
Balanced and designed be damned, you have my vote. Make them have an autoturret level dps, so that in a direct contest they can out muscle or even fend off enemy drop harrass, but they don't have other advanced tactical options. You could even use empty dropships to harrass while you attack a seperate army with your ground force.
I'd love to see 2 dropships zone out a warp prism.
The main problem is blink stalker and queen kinda trash dropships, and you can't make the turret significantly strong.
Edit: this idea is terrible, we already have a wraith.
Maybe let the dropship be able to land with units and have bio units be able to fire out of it (like a bunker but with medivac + some bonus hp).
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On November 06 2012 15:25 Chronopolis wrote:
Maybe let the dropship be able to land with units and have bio units be able to fire out of it (like a bunker but with medivac + some bonus hp).
Give it drop pods, starship troopers style?
How long does a matrix:ed dropship last?
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Give it the ability to crash and act as a slightly weaker bunker XD
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When I played last night there appeared to be an issue with the mines exploding for certain units? Which units are they not meant to effect other than workers?
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On November 06 2012 21:40 Zealos wrote:
When I played last night there appeared to be an issue with the mines exploding for certain units? Which units are they not meant to effect other than workers?
Hovering ones, that is both Archons and Vultures.
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I had fun playing some 1on1s and 2on2s on this with friends. Much back & forth and many small skirmishes. It was a bit random sometimes because we didn't know the units (tried to defend a push with the greater spire units but they don't attack tt).
Would love to see a new 2on2 map, but the one on EU is fun too.
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Something really needs to be done to fix mines... Even protoss players agree.
Make burrow a little faster and give them the lowest auto-attack priority.
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On November 06 2012 12:48 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 10:04 Doominator10 wrote:
+1 to the StarBow unit tester.
While it wouldn't accurately depict the timings of things (how fast can a gol get out in relation to a vray), it would be nice just to see how spell effects work in battles. And I think it would be easier to test those types of balance rather than updating the actual maps and waiting for feedback. I'm on it, i'll find someone who will have enough knowledge and energy to make it, I mean I would, but I have no fucking clue how to design the ui for these things, like I could do it with triggers, but i've never actually used a unit tester...fortunately I have connections 
It would be awesome if you could get starbow imported into the unit tester online map. It is clearly the best unit test interface right now.
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@Kabel
Dropships
Give them Hercules dropship ability. Drops all units almost instantly. Doesn't impede balance
Broodlord
You took broodlings away without giving something to compensate. Slap some additional raw damage on brood lords so they feel like guardians. Maybe just call them guardians ? Corruptors are fine
Map pool sucks. Still no new maps for NA? Only map people play is sacred sands.
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Wait, what? I played Starbow yesterday, and broodlords still have broodlings. Did I miss something?
@Kabel, Improvement on broodlords:
One thing that would make broodlords more micro intensive and interesting is to make them so that they shoot something like guardians (generic projectile, whatever); however, anytime that their target dies (anything that the broodlord has hit before -- this is so even if other zerg units kill the broodlord's target), that dead thing turns into broodlings.
This is better because if the player wants more broodlings, they can target fire different enemies at the same time or one right after the other, without killing them so other units do the cleaning up. Less a-move and great synergy, which I think should defines lategame zerg. It is still powerful with an appropriate support army but not quite as annoyingly good and a-move as regular broodlords.
Basically, the broodlord shoots a projectile spore thing that deals damage like normal. This main attack puts a modifier on whatever unit it hits, so that any time that unit dies, it turns into broodlings. You can also add a timer to this modifier, so if the unit is not killed within a certain time (unless the timer is set again by being hit by another broodlord projectile), the modifier goes away (this allows a bit more micro potential from the other player).
Needless to say, everything would have to be balanced, but I do think this change is a genuine improvement on broodlords on many different levels. Still strong when used by lesser players but even stronger in the hands of those more skilled.
Thoughts?
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About Broodlords: I completely disagree. I feel that it has a place in starcraft, and it serves as a good late game army unit. Throughout most of the game, the zerg is the one getting pushed back. They try to expand while the other races push them back. Suddenly brood lord becomes the main unit to help push them back (Note, I am not saying it's impossible to push out otherwise, it is just harder. With broodlords you will almost always be able to push).
Broodlords are slow, fragile. Are working bad on they own and need support. Their power grows incredibly with numbers. One is useless while 10 can kill basically any amount of ground units. Typical deathball unit. Imho slowest zerg units still should be relatively mobile compared to other races units. Taking away some of its strength in direct engagement and buffing mobility and usefulness in small skirmishes would be good for gameplay.
Something really needs to be done ti fix mines... Even protoss players agree.
Make burrow a little faster and give them the lowest auto-attack priority.
Buff their speed/acceleration slighlty. Reduce burrow delay. Give them bit better range so they can outrange range upgrade less marines/hydras/goons.
@Kabel, Improvement on broodlords:
One thing that would make broodlords more micro intensive and interesting is to make them so that they shoot something like guardians (generic projectile, whatever); however, anytime that their target dies (anything that the broodlord has hit before -- this is so even if other zerg units kill the broodlord's target), that dead thing turns into broodlings.
This is better because if the player wants more broodlings, they can target fire different enemies at the same time or one right after the other, without killing them so other units do the cleaning up. Less a-move and great synergy, which I think should defines lategame zerg. It is still powerful with an appropriate support army but not quite as annoyingly good and a-move as regular broodlords.
Basically, the broodlord shoots a projectile spore thing that deals damage like normal. This main attack puts a modifier on whatever unit it hits, so that any time that unit dies, it turns into broodlings. You can also add a timer to this modifier, so if the unit is not killed within a certain time (unless the timer is set again by being hit by another broodlord projectile), the modifier goes away (this allows a bit more micro potential from the other player).
Needless to say, everything would have to be balanced, but I do think this change is a genuine improvement on broodlords on many different levels. Still strong when used by lesser players but even stronger in the hands of those more skilled.
We had it that way and for some reason it didnt work. Imho it seems fine in theory. Just dont buff their damage. Rather lower their cost.
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@Kabel. Hm, I'd like to know the reason it was reverted? I think the design is better, and it can still be balanced.
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Something interesting I just found out. Reaver splash doesn't effect allied units. You can manually target an allied unit, it will die, but the splash doesn't hurt allies.
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decemberscalm:
Reavers never splashed allied units. Neither BW or Starbow.
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EPT
