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[A] Starbow - Page 151

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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JohnnyZerg
Profile Joined July 2012
Italy378 Posts
November 12 2012 01:44 GMT
#3001
who made this units test map?
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-12 02:06:14
November 12 2012 02:06 GMT
#3002
On November 12 2012 10:44 JohnnyZerg wrote:
who made this units test map?

It was a template test map. All the units and everything are from Starbow.

I'll have it uploaded on NA soon as it's cleaned up.
Traceback
Profile Joined October 2010
United States469 Posts
November 12 2012 02:21 GMT
#3003
The version for vanilla starcraft is called Unit Tester Online 0.94. Author credits/whatever can be found there.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-12 02:30:16
November 12 2012 02:27 GMT
#3004
Lings are ridiculous with 50 HP now O.O

My gate way units are getting chewed up completely by speedy lings.
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
November 12 2012 02:42 GMT
#3005
--- Nuked ---
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
November 12 2012 02:46 GMT
#3006
On November 12 2012 11:42 Laertes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 11:27 decemberscalm wrote:
Lings are ridiculous with 50 HP now O.O

My gate way units are getting chewed up completely by speedy lings.


its funny because everyone including gossen thought they got a nerf.

I just had to adjust tactics to deal with them. Blink stalkers no good vs them.
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
November 12 2012 02:50 GMT
#3007
--- Nuked ---
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
November 12 2012 03:35 GMT
#3008
On November 12 2012 10:16 decemberscalm wrote:
The units, all research (mines, charge, duality, seige)
http://imgur.com/fVU6A,Jrbf7,9hP4S

The setup
http://imgur.com/fVU6A,Jrbf7,9hP4S#1
Overlapping field of fire, overkill shouldn't occur too harshly
Toss is given an a-move attack with their units clumped up just like that. The mines and tank splash should annihilate clumped units, but immortals are the vanguard.
That is one round of spider mines placed (T is lucky to have even that in a mid map fight, even luckier to have his tanks spread its a pretty defensive posture for T).

After the fight.
http://imgur.com/fVU6A,Jrbf7,9hP4S#2

Target firing the immortals with the vultures doesn't help as its a brutal waste of dps that could go to the zealots instead.

This is with the latest patch, imagine how sad prepatch would have been.


You need more space to engage P, mines spread out further away where tanks can cover them from being obs sniped and you kite the zealots with vultures which have to be in front of your army. Proper vulture movement helps to deal a bit with how strong the P units are, and if you fire at immortals at all it can't be right before the big fight happens there. You target fire the gateway units with tanks and let splash damage immortals, then take them down when shields are down, losing a few tanks in the process. If you're on the map without a bunker versus a push like that, you've made a tactical error already as Terran.

And P can engage that army but there's really no point, better to mass bases behind the gateway/immortal army that's impenetrable and then crush with mass gateways and storm/reaver.

Just throwing in my 2¢.
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
November 12 2012 03:36 GMT
#3009
On November 12 2012 11:46 decemberscalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 11:42 Laertes wrote:
On November 12 2012 11:27 decemberscalm wrote:
Lings are ridiculous with 50 HP now O.O

My gate way units are getting chewed up completely by speedy lings.


its funny because everyone including gossen thought they got a nerf.

I just had to adjust tactics to deal with them. Blink stalkers no good vs them.


Lings did get nerfed pretty heavily, but with higher HP you can crush certain builds that aren't really that viable with more ease. It's just more obvious because of unit retention and people being unwise with army positioning in PvZ.
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
November 12 2012 03:53 GMT
#3010
On November 12 2012 12:36 CapnAmerica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 11:46 decemberscalm wrote:
On November 12 2012 11:42 Laertes wrote:
On November 12 2012 11:27 decemberscalm wrote:
Lings are ridiculous with 50 HP now O.O

My gate way units are getting chewed up completely by speedy lings.


its funny because everyone including gossen thought they got a nerf.

I just had to adjust tactics to deal with them. Blink stalkers no good vs them.


Lings did get nerfed pretty heavily, but with higher HP you can crush certain builds that aren't really that viable with more ease. It's just more obvious because of unit retention and people being unwise with army positioning in PvZ.

Ling speed increase made the build me and Can were using pretty damn ineffective. Lings catch blink stalkers and eat them alive now. Before Zergs had to spine up to not die vs it.

Right now I'm using mostly zealots, 1 or 2 stalkers to kill any banes just in case.

By the time I get my third, storm should be up pretty quickly.

I had some amazing unit positions for stalkers vs pure ling aggression, doesn't matter. Stalkers just don't contend well vs pure ling early on.

Can't wait to use archons.
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
November 12 2012 03:56 GMT
#3011
I played against Canhanrah's build (several days ago) and absolutely DESTROYED it with lings before the speed buff. Agreed on the stalker vs Pure Ling thing.

Archons are the sex, and the thing that truly makes P have an unstoppable "core" army in PvZ later on if they survive properly.
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
November 12 2012 04:00 GMT
#3012
On November 12 2012 12:56 CapnAmerica wrote:
I played against Canhanrah's build (several days ago) and absolutely DESTROYED it with lings before the speed buff. Agreed on the stalker vs Pure Ling thing.

Archons are the sex, and the thing that truly makes P have an unstoppable "core" army in PvZ later on if they survive properly.

But can can't micro
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
November 12 2012 04:19 GMT
#3013
On November 12 2012 13:00 decemberscalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 12:56 CapnAmerica wrote:
I played against Canhanrah's build (several days ago) and absolutely DESTROYED it with lings before the speed buff. Agreed on the stalker vs Pure Ling thing.

Archons are the sex, and the thing that truly makes P have an unstoppable "core" army in PvZ later on if they survive properly.

But can can't micro


It's not a question of micro -- in SC2 and in Starbow you eventually have too many Zerglings for blink stalkers to handle, if you prepare adequately and don't let their stalker numbers snowball. I had like... a lot of Zerglings. Off many hatches, with injects, and macro hatches.
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-12 06:52:00
November 12 2012 06:48 GMT
#3014
@Unit tester

It seems to be a great tool for checking unit interactions! Any chance to get it uploaded on EU too? : )

@Cheese

I am a bit skeptic about the barrack before supply depot too.. But I decided to give it a try atleast.. If it adds something good to the game I will let it remain.. It is indeed a potential early threat.
I just fear that it might become an "unstopable" early cheese because of Calldown SCV @ front to build bunkers, bunkers can be salvaged to regain the investment, reactors are built fast and are cheaper.. Proxy barrack with 1 reactor before supply depot.... Only requires 25 gas..


I let it remain for exploration.

@TvP

Hopefully the patch was a step in the right direction atleast ^^

@ZvP


Did the slight speed increase of Zerglings in this patch have a large impact on the Stalkers - Zerglings relation? Sounds like Stalkers are unplayable now they way you talk about it : O



Creator of Starbow
Traceback
Profile Joined October 2010
United States469 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-12 09:14:21
November 12 2012 09:11 GMT
#3015
I think (from what I have seen) toss were relying a little too much on heavy blink aggression in PvZ... >.>

Maybe a nerf for a week will help encourage them to expand the meta. I'm sure there are some other more advanced strategies that could be explored *cough* sair reaver *cough*.
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
November 12 2012 10:19 GMT
#3016
On November 12 2012 18:11 Traceback wrote:
I think (from what I have seen) toss were relying a little too much on heavy blink aggression in PvZ... >.>

Maybe a nerf for a week will help encourage them to expand the meta. I'm sure there are some other more advanced strategies that could be explored *cough* sair reaver *cough*.


You can't rely 'too much' on a certain strategy if there's no counter for it. The need to force ka player to develop new strats in case his usual plan fails, ergo forcing a meta change, is a crucial sign of a bad game design.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
November 12 2012 11:23 GMT
#3017
You can't rely 'too much' on a certain strategy if there's no counter for it. The need to force ka player to develop new strats in case his usual plan fails, ergo forcing a meta change, is a crucial sign of a bad game design.


No. Most of the time its all about balance, not design.

It's not a question of micro -- in SC2 and in Starbow you eventually have too many Zerglings for blink stalkers to handle, if you prepare adequately and don't let their stalker numbers snowball


Thats most important. If number of stalkers is growing then doesnt matter how many lings you will have. As toss you have to keep pressuring, forcing defences and keep your stalkers alive. If you are loosing 1-2 stalkers here and there then you are doing it wrong.
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
November 12 2012 11:59 GMT
#3018
On November 12 2012 20:23 Danko__ wrote:
Show nested quote +
You can't rely 'too much' on a certain strategy if there's no counter for it. The need to force a player to develop new strats in case his usual plan fails, ergo forcing a meta change, is a crucial sign of a bad game design.


No. Most of the time its all about balance, not design.

I don't think that slight balance changes would force you to develop a completely new strategy for a matchup, and that's what we are talking about here. On the other hand, if you want to change certain unit's impact on the gameplay by modifying numbers, you are essentially changing its function in the game, therefore modifying the design.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
November 12 2012 12:12 GMT
#3019
I don't think that slight balance changes would force you to develop a completely new strategy for a matchup, and that's what we are talking about here.


Exactly. Thats why i dont belive any of these really affected viability of this strat. More likely opponents it was used against learned how to play vs it.

On the other hand, if you want to change certain unit's impact on the gameplay by modifying numbers, you are essentially changing its function in the game, therefore modifying the design.


Sc2 fungal change with doubling dps and halving duration was change like that, but not +0,2ms to speedling.
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
November 12 2012 12:28 GMT
#3020
Aight, to clear it up: I commented on Traceback's premise that forcing a meta change is the way to go, not whether the changes Kabel applied to the mod helped in any way or not. In any case, now that I haven't played for a while, I've got to say, there's a lot of changes happening almost every other week; especially considering the low player base, I think giving everybody more time to get used to them will have a much better effect on the game than experimenting. As I said, this isn't vanilla, planning the game solely around maxed armies' unit compositions is not how SBow should be played.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
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